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Bookwrack wrote: 'OMFG, every CSM HAS to be modeled with a BOLTER, a BOLT PISTOL, and a CCW, OMFG OMFG or else it's not WYSIWYG OMG BBQ!'

Also slightly OT... "BBQ"?

jesus f*cking christ. i dunno how people can say tournaments are nazis in the count as rules. In the GT there was a genestealer cult army count as orcs.

Heh, look at some of the previous threads about "Counts As: OK?" Most of the people who gripe about Counts As are tourney types, usually because they don't want the confusion of seeing spikey marines and having to remember they count as marines who traditionally have fewer spikes.

It is a shame really, they are missing out on some fun, but to each their own.

I would agree with most of the interpretations for your 'counts as' models, because what we're mostly talking about is CONVERSIONS.

Converted drug addled Noise Marines = Plague Marine? FINE
Converted tyranids with all different units obvious = Lizardmen? FINE
Converted "necron marines" = Plague Marines? FINE

In each situation, you're creating unique hybrid models (which don't have rules) and then using them to count as other models, and since none of these other models are in your army you won't confuse anyone.

The problem comes when you use models that already have rules. For example, I WOULD have a problem with someone building an army of CSM models as 'counts as' SM. I've played against CSM a number of times, and I'd have to be constantly reminding myself of what they really 'count as' and how I should play against them. Confusing. How would you react if someone turned up to play you with an entirely Tau army, but 'used the rules' for Orks because they're more competitive...??

If you took a SM collection and modelled them as 'recent converts to chaos', with a few spikes and defaced insignia, then this would be absolutely fine to use as SM, because there's no implicit confusion. You're not taking models which ALREADY HAVE well established rules, abd using them with another model's rules (confusing)

If someone wants to 'try out' multimeltas, and designates that his missile launcher troops are multimeltas for a single friendly game, that's fine. Of course, I'd be annoyed if he did it EVERY game.

I admit CSM count as SM is a bit odd. Just shows how much people hate the new chaos dex. we can just all sum it down to, as long as the models cant be confused for anything else in the army and the opponent knows at the start of the game then its ok.

ArbitorIan wrote:I WOULD have a problem with someone building an army of CSM models as 'counts as' SM. I've played against CSM a number of times, and I'd have to be constantly reminding myself of what they really 'count as' and how I should play against them.

How would you react if someone turned up to play you with an entirely Tau army, but 'used the rules' for Orks because they're more competitive...??

If you took a SM collection and modelled them as 'recent converts to chaos', with a few spikes and defaced insignia, then this would be absolutely fine to use as SM,

What if they had an army of SM models "counts as" CSM? And just how different are CSM from SM? They're still fundamentally the same WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ models. The Special Rules are somewhat different, but I can't imagine there being so much difference.

Tau are WS2 T3 Sv4+ with R30" S5 guns. Orks are WS4 T4 Sv- with 18" Assault guns. They look totally different, and should be expected to play differently. This is a proxy army, not a counts as army.

In my case, it's going to be hyper-Puritan Loyalists who are still loyal to the Emperor, so no spikes or insignia changes, but play as CSM. As GW notes, it's not uncommon for things to go so far that they step over into what looks like Chaos, so that's going to be my approach for a force that has just started to cross the line into Chaos. Besides, the presence of a few Defilers and and Daemons should make it pretty clear what's really going on...
____

enmitee wrote:I admit CSM count as SM is a bit odd. Just shows how much people hate the new chaos dex.

I find it bizzare. The current CSM Codex is far superior to the SM Codex in terms of playability. I have no interest in playing vanilla SM at all, not when CSM bring a far richer set of units to the table.

JohnHwangDD wrote:In my case, it's going to be hyper-Puritan Loyalists who are still loyal to the Emperor, so no spikes or insignia changes, but play as CSM.

This is exactly what he said that he has problems with. You're playing models with an existing rule set as something completely "other". He's going to be looking at your Space Marine Chapter Master, thinking 'alright, Orbital Bombardment, better spread out in cover" and suddenly your "Puritan" uses Lash of Submission to drag him into Obliterator fire from the unit of Terminators.

Aside from the fact that my "Chapter Master" looks more like a Daemon Prince and is supported by Daemons and Defilers, sure...

And even your Obliterator example is FAIL.

I could understand it if all I had were Tactical / Assault / Devastator-type marines, supported by Rhino / Pred / Vindi / Land Raider - because those are all overlap units.

But once things like Obliterators appear on the board, only an idiot is going to mistake the army for a SM army.

40k assumes some very minimal level of intelligence, so I have no sympathy for an opponent who is so stupid as to be confused whether he's playing Chaos or SM when Chaos-specific units are on the board.

Sorry.

JohnhwangDD wrote:In my case, it's going to be hyper-Puritan Loyalists who are still loyal to the Emperor, so no spikes or insignia changes, but play as CSM.

???

I already don't care, though. Counts As is always going to be at the behest of your opponent and your Tournament Organizer.

@sourclams:

CSM background summary.

You don't need to care, as the background only really matters to the creator as inspiration for the force.

As for Counts As in Tournaments, I'm not worried, as I got my gold star a few years ago, so I don't need to prove anything there.

I really like the broad range of opinions stated on this issue (although I'd rather read "This is how I think it is" instead of the shortened version "This is how it is" that seems pretty common).
Yet I think the discussion would be improved by trying to clearly define the terms.

I think one good indicator (that has been mentioned between the lines only) would be whether a replacement is meant as a short-time solution ("let's try this out") or permanently ("this is my one-of-a-kind army").

Since I cannot find any definition of the terms, I'll simply venture to call short-term-solutions "proxy" and long-term-solutions "counts as", since "proxy armies" are usually those for trying out something (at least where I come from).

Are there any other criteria that might be used to differ between the terms?

Now to my personal opinion:
As a big fan of the hobby aspect of wargaming, I would love "counts as" armies to be modeled to a certain level. A sturdy looking Slaneesh marine as PM-equivalent in a Slaneesh-themed army is good. A completely-new army (be it squats (hopefully not!) or Adeptus Mechanicus) using some army book would be great, too. I would want this army to use models and bases built to the same size as the originals for fairness purposes (TLOS, deepstriking, disembarkation, even cc), but besides that, I think everything is okay.

As someone with a gakky memory, I absolutely hate proxies, though. If that missile launcher "proxies" stands in for a multimelta, I'll remember it for three rounds. And in round four, I'll drive my landraider too close... I do not require people to use proper multimeltas, but something that has a barrel like one would help a lot.

Note that, a long time ago, I "cheated" exactly the other way around: I had a havoc team with 4 lascannons, which was modeled in the plague marine look. My opponent, playing 'nids, did not shoot at it, because "you cannot properly hurt plague marines". Stupid me, I reminded him these were normal CSM. After that, he wiped them off the table in one round.

Just my 2 cents,
Tierlieb

Tierlieb wrote: Stupid me, I reminded him these were normal CSM. After that, he wiped them off the table in one round.

I'd say you were honorable, not stupid. :-)

Completely off topic, but...

Janthkin wrote:

Tierlieb wrote:5. Adeptus Mechanicus army using tyranid ruleset (because Synapse is a good representation of a magos controlling constructs? Or because tyranid MCs ruled 4th edition?).

I'd like to see this one, please.

I had this idea a couple of years ago, and recently got round to it. I completed a 1500pt army for the UKGT heat three last November. The basic plan behind it was to field Ad Mech Big Stompy Robots (BSRs) as monstrous creatures, zoanthropes as tech priests and gaunts as servitors.

I've read about the ad-mech tyranid idea a couple of times on dakka recently. Is anybody else doing the same thing or is my army famous? I'll post some pics later in the modelling forum.

Tierlieb wrote:5. Adeptus Mechanicus army using tyranid ruleset (because Synapse is a good representation of a magos controlling constructs? Or because tyranid MCs ruled 4th edition?).

This is almost exactly how I describe my army. Just a shame I waited until 5th ed to build it.

My take on counts as is fairly simple: The better it looks, the more you will get away with! I put a lot of effort into my army and received no complaints (and more than a few high fives).

As long as you hit the dimensions right, base it correctly, and use the right guns (as much as actually possible), you should be fine. I wish I had my rulebook with me to find the page, but there is, I believe, a Deffkopta that was "scratch-built" from various GW parts. If it's in the rulebook, why the heck not? I made a "Winged Daemon Prince of Nurgle" out of extra Rhino Doors, top panels and those spiky Chaos vehicle panels with a GUO's tongue-head thing sticking out the top and two Assault-marine jump packs stuck to the bottom like a hovering mechanism/Nurgle's Rot spewer threw it on a skimmer base. It's all GW parts, has everything represented for what should be there and is actually larger than the model it would be representing. I guess I don't see how it could be a problem for anyone if the rulebook has it in there.

Something else to consider, the Chaos Dreadnought only comes with two guns for the right arm and a CCW for the left arm. If someone argued against "counts as" then I can't take 3/4 of the options in the codex.

To many people, whether 'counts as' is acceptable is whether it's for something that is powerful or not.

OK, what does that DPoN look like?

Pix or it didn't happen!

The way I see it, many converted models are 'count as'... I have a few chaos marines I made to look all infected and such with tyranid parts. I use them as possessed marines. Everyone love them, and they look a lot like possessed, so that'd be a 'count as'.

however, I happen to have this old, wooden tank... it's one of those seven year old's 'make your own tank' five dollar art kits... it's poorly painted and it has little wheels under it.

I pull the turret off and use it as a vindicator. lol.

that's a proxy. I only do it because my REAL vindicator is still coming in the mail. it's temporary, it's obviously not a model, it's a proxy.

one thing that I'm not sure about would be my step-brother's tyrant guard. He hasn't gotten enough to actually buy the beasties, so he uses ripper swarms in their place. they're the same size, and it's very easy to remember they're tyrant guards when they're always right up on the tyrant... but they're temporary...

I'm not sure if that's a 'count as' or a proxy. lol

The wooden tank and the rippers are both proxies, as they don't really match the model.