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I'm returning to WHFB after a few years' absence, and I'm putting together a Daemon army from the dribs and drabs of my old Hordes of Chaos army.

What are the ideal sizes of various units? I have over 20 Horrors, and just bought a box of 10 Bloodletters. I have some Furies, Screamers, and Nurglings as well. Any advice on Daemonic army building would be appreciated. Thanks.

Horrors are best in blocks of 10 for Core choices; they generate 1PD/1DD, fulfill the core requirement, and are generally considered the "best" core choice you've got. Some people may use the super huge unit to get a Level 4 caster out of a horror block, but the cost of protecting it becomes crazy (probably using Changeling, etc).

Bloodletters are also best in blocks of 10, MSU is the way to go, they're too fragile to have in big blocks - I tried; it's not fun.

If you want big blocks in core, then Plague Bearers + Herald on Planaquin = Regenerating block of death.

Daemonettes aren't that great in comparison to the others no matter how you run them - unless the goal is to shred lots of T3 troops which is rare these days. If you were to run them you could do a Tar Pit style block with a Herald that has the Siren Song ability (probably not a good idea). Otherwise, units of 10 MSU style to fill core.

Furies work best as minimum units of 5. I prefer 2 units of 5, but some people get by with less others more. It's based on playstyle.

Don't spend more points in Core than you have to. 3 units of 10 cheerleaders, of whatever flavor you like.

Thanks for that.

So what are the stand-out units this time around? I'm liking the looks of those Bloodcrusher models...

Bloodcrushers are good either in singletons as charge redirectors, or in units (led by Heralds on Jugs for Hatred).

Flesh Hounds are probably the standouts, much more resilient than BC's and covered in great peripherals.

Thirster is better than ever, cheap and killy.

MSU horrors will lose you friends, but it is probably the best build. Flesh hounds and flamers are the best none core stuff you got.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Bloodletters are also best in blocks of 10, MSU is the way to go, they're too fragile to have in big blocks - I tried; it's not fun.

Just curious - wouldn't their fragility make 'em better in big units rather than small? I'm also trying to put a Daemon list together, and I'm wrestling with the 2 blocks of 10 or 1 of 20 choice myself...

My thinking was that a big block could shuck some missile fire and still have ranks left when it was time to get "stuck in." Is that wrong?

Flamers are insanely good, and allow you a shooting option. Most opponents seem to go with 3 as they put out a great amount of firepower but don't cost too much if lost.

Flesh hounds are better than blood crushers IMHO for their points cost.

Most opponents I see usually go with a 2 god army, and have, say at 2250, 4 core, 2 large (20 ish) and 2 small (10 ish)

Commissar Molotov wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Bloodletters are also best in blocks of 10, MSU is the way to go, they're too fragile to have in big blocks - I tried; it's not fun.

Just curious - wouldn't their fragility make 'em better in big units rather than small? I'm also trying to put a Daemon list together, and I'm wrestling with the 2 blocks of 10 or 1 of 20 choice myself...

My thinking was that a big block could shuck some missile fire and still have ranks left when it was time to get "stuck in." Is that wrong?

No, Bloodletters are best as small units that aren't worth shooting. If they're shooting/magic'ing your Bloodletters they're not shooting your Thirster/Hounds/Flamers or whatever faster more threatening units you have.

You have to remember, you can go down to 5 guys and you're still getting as many attacks as you would with a 10 or 20 man unit, and at 12 points a pop, they're not being efficient if you're using them to generate ranks.

And yes, Hounds are much better than Crushers. Look at it this way.

1 Crusher = 4 Attacks (2 S6, 2 S5), 50mm frontage, 2 wounds, 70 points, M7
2 Hounds = 4 Attacks (all S5), 50mm frontage, 4 wounds, 70 points, M8

For the same points you get roughly the same damage output and frontage, with faster movement and double the wounds. Oh and Hounds are MR3. Great for dealing with say Tzeench or other high magic armies trying to gun you down.

If you want to use Bloodcrushers, play 40k.

Though I agree that Hounds are better than Crushers, Crushers do have armour (albeit mediocre 4+ armour) and killing blow to all 4 attacks, which is something to consider.

Zoned

The rare slot is better filled with flamers though.

As an aside I had to try and pound my way through 20 bloodletters and skulltaker on a juggernaught.... with a dwarf slayer cult army.

I lost 1 daemon slayer, 15 brotherhood slayers and 20 slayers just to do 1 wound on skulltaker and knock the bloodletters down to half models.

It is an insane tank vs infantry armies as it just rolls right over them.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

No, Bloodletters are best as small units that aren't worth shooting. If they're shooting/magic'ing your Bloodletters they're not shooting your Thirster/Hounds/Flamers or whatever faster more threatening units you have.

You have to remember, you can go down to 5 guys and you're still getting as many attacks as you would with a 10 or 20 man unit, and at 12 points a pop, they're not being efficient if you're using them to generate ranks.

Okay, gotcha. What about the effects of "fear?" Is it prohibitively expensive to try to outnumber the enemy for the maximum fear-causing effect?

The optimal build is 3x10 horrors and 4x6 flesh hounds. Obviously you'll run into points restrictions in 2000pts if you're also running a BT and a few heralds, but just so that you know what the top picks are in core and special. Remember that because of high magic resistance all around and horrors providing dispel dice you can build a competitive army around the greater daemon (whichever one really, LoC being the weakest) and just one additional herald (I often use two though). Don't go all out on hero choices, because the special and rare choices are even more useful. If named characters are allowed in your circles you should always use the Masque (and/or Blue Scribes if you want to ruin a VC player) because she's a bargain for what she can do Get the points for her by dropping a unit of Furies if necessary.

Anyway, the flamers aren't nearly as crucial as flesh hounds. For a mixed feel I often take one unit of five to accompany three units of six flesh hounds, but I'd be absolutely fine without the flamers. Sometimes I wish I didn't take them. It would make more sense to take two units of six and focus fire with them all the time and use the other unit to protect the other in case of a close combat. Then however I'd have considerably less hounds and especially when made stubborn they're one of the best units in the game for any task. Sort of unbreakable, ward saves, multiple wounds, fast enough to get charges on heavy cav, chew through heroes like arch lector on war altar, nearly immune to magic, high weapon skill, what's not to love?

Is it prohibitively expensive to try to outnumber the enemy for the maximum fear-causing effect?

For that see the other nice army book; Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts.

MSU style is the way to go with Daemons.

Bloodletters will do damage when they get into combat
Horrors 10-12 will give you PD/DD and a spell that can do some damage if you get a few high rolls.
Daemonettes are not that great.
Plaguebearers make a great anvill when used with a herald that stops flanks and rear bonuses.
Screamers can do a little damage to decrease ranks and march block
Flesh Hounds are Mid-level calvary and can really do some damage.
Seekers can get there quick and make your opponent break his lines (siren standard and you will charge a unit- only reaction to this is HOLD)
Nurglings can be tar pitty and can overcome smaller units.
Nurgle Beasts can rip a unit apart.
Fiends can do the same but with less attacks
Bloodcrushers can devestate a unit and give you overrun possibilities
Flamers are a shooty unit that can do a lot but keep them out of close combat if possible.

If you want to hit use Khorne
If you want to shoot use Tzeentch
If you want to win by Combat results use Nurgle
If you want speed use Slaanesh

If you want to combine you army then think
Bloodthirster
10 Horrors + Herald of Tzeentch
10 Horrors + Herald of Tzeentch
16 Plague Bearers + Herald of Nurgle (BSB)
Flesh Hounds
Crushers/fiends/beast/Flamers (your choice depending on what you want to do)

Some interesting Herald Combinations are
HoTzeentch with Master of Sorcery or Flames
HoKhorne with Obsidian Armour on Juggernaut (0+save and nullify Magical Weapons)

I won't go into the special Charachter which can cause even more nighmares.

"The optimal build is 3x10 horrors and 4x6 flesh hounds"

I'm unconvinced about the 3x10 horrors. Sure, they are nice for blocking VC spells, but who cares? Just run them over with your Khorne list. Ditto for Tomb Kings/Whatever. I lose more soft score for bringing Tzeentchies in my Khorne list than I gain in BP for the extra dispel dice.

Take the Bloodletters (cheerleaders), paint them like the rest of the army (all Khorne, shouldn't be hard to keep your theme). You can use the following lines for soft scores:

#1: I just don't like the new fluff where all the Gods get together. Much like you, I'm an oldbie who time has passed by. I loved X edition too! It's just terrible what they've done with your favorite codex. GW is out to get us man.
#2: I wanted to use all the Khorne models, I'm all about representing the true fluff of a Storm of Chaos era Khornate invasion. My guys are the Daemons who rode with....in the battle of ....which my display base represents.
#3: I hate all those cheesy internet lists. I'm sticking to my Bloodletters, the models are way cooler than Pink Horrors.

I'm unconvinced about the 3x10 horrors. Sure, they are nice for blocking VC spells, but who cares? Just run them over with your Khorne list.

Show me another army that can get a fear causing level 1 wizard with 10 wounds and a 5+ ward save for 120 points please (Not to mention that you can get them as compulsory core choices).

Run them down? Do you actually think people bring these units to fight with?

Sigh...

I don't think you read my post...

40kenthusiast wrote:I don't think you read my post...

I think he did, I just think he didn't find it relevant to the point of "What is the best build?"

Also remember that Therion is top level Tournament player that comes from a country that either doesn't use or doesn't care about soft scores. If someone ever wants tournament list building advice for Fantasy, Therion is the best to ask around Dakka.

His choices actually ARE the best base to build a competitive Daemons list around. Yours seem more based on fluff/worrying about soft scores(not saying it's invalid, just not optimal).

Yeah, I'm not concerned with soft scores. I'm just trying to get a feel for what units work and what don't

That said, I really hate the flesh hound models (every one ever made, really) so I have to mull over whether I want to forgo the best unit in the game, do some sort of "counts as" thing (bloodletters on cold ones?), or just spend a bunch of money for models I dislike (not likely). Or I could try to convince myself that flesh hounds look awesome. Anyone up for extolling the virtues of the flesh hound models?

I can post some pics of my flesh hounds and make a better reply when I get home from work. The models aren't stunning or anything but they are quite large and imposing.

About flesh hounds earlier I forgot to add that if you use two tzeentch heralds with master of sorcery like I often do you can use the wolf hunts spell to pull off surprising game winner flank and rear charges with them.

Thanks. It can be hard to learn to love an ugly model, but sometimes it can happen.

Pariah: The Warhounds of Mortal Chaos and the Dire Wolves of the Vampire Counts both make perfectly acceptable Flesh Hounds - at least, I've never had anyone complain about them.

Personally, I favour a combat-heavy list - I usually run a big Plaguebearer block (5x4) with a BSB Herald, flank it with two mid-sized Bloodletter blocks, use Flesh Hounds, Flamers and Furies to deal with the faster or better-hidden threats, and fill the army out with a Tzeentch Herald on Chariot, a Great Unclean One and a small Horror unit for support. This comes to around 2500.

I've found that the size of the unit depends entirely on how you want to use them. Plaguebearers are an anvil, so they need to be a decent size to prevent them from evaporating. They should be able to hold their own for several turns against almost any foe.

Bloodletters form the counter-charge unit, so their hitting power is more important that their survivability. However, it's not uncommon for one of them to be charged or shot down before they can charge, so I like the extra survivability that the third rank brings.

Horrors and Furies are utility units - even at minimum size they do the job they're there to do, so I'm happy taking them at minimum size.

Flesh Hounds and Flamers are very hard-hitting and pretty expensive to boot, so the aim with them is to maximise the power with a minimum of cost. Thankfully, they're also pretty survivable, and their roles mean that several small units are better than a few big units, as this allows them to split their focus where appropriate. Naturally, this is allowing for the choice restrictions.

I'd recommend using the new Chaos Warhounds as Flesh Hounds. With the right paint job, I think they'll do just fine.

I'm picking up two boxes of them for my own DoC list I'm building.

Thanks. It can be hard to learn to love an ugly model, but sometimes it can happen.

Pics of a lot of stuff in my daemon army here:

http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h289/kronork/Chaos%20Daemons/

looking good Therion.

(and the Eldar still look great)

Aelyn wrote:Pariah: The Warhounds of Mortal Chaos and the Dire Wolves of the Vampire Counts both make perfectly acceptable Flesh Hounds - at least, I've never had anyone complain about them.

I've seen people complain about it...You are expected to pay full price dollar wise if you want to field 'cheesy' units was the argument used...

skyth wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Pariah: The Warhounds of Mortal Chaos and the Dire Wolves of the Vampire Counts both make perfectly acceptable Flesh Hounds - at least, I've never had anyone complain about them.

I've seen people complain about it...You are expected to pay full price dollar wise if you want to field 'cheesy' units was the argument used...

Meh, that's generally going to be restricted to Warseer or other internet forums, I say let them bitch. My upcoming army has headless Ghouls (with the nub where the head would be painted as an Eye) as Horrors, Warhounds as Flesh Hounds, and converted OoP Horrors as Tzeench Heralds.

Convert/Paint up and if you do a good job people at tournaments won't complain.

skyth wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Pariah: The Warhounds of Mortal Chaos and the Dire Wolves of the Vampire Counts both make perfectly acceptable Flesh Hounds - at least, I've never had anyone complain about them.

I've seen people complain about it...You are expected to pay full price dollar wise if you want to field 'cheesy' units was the argument used...

Interesting. The reason I use the Dire Wolves is because I think the models for the Flesh Hounds are... well, bad. Plus I prefer plastic to metal for painting.

I've seen people have issues with using models that are completely off or which haven't made a concession to the intended use (in my case, I've given them red skin and brass manes), but never seen people refuse to play based on the models not being expensive enough. I guess I wouldn't be able to use my carefully-converted Nurgle Herald BSB because it was based on a plastic Zombie either?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

skyth wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Pariah: The Warhounds of Mortal Chaos and the Dire Wolves of the Vampire Counts both make perfectly acceptable Flesh Hounds - at least, I've never had anyone complain about them.

I've seen people complain about it...You are expected to pay full price dollar wise if you want to field 'cheesy' units was the argument used...

Meh, that's generally going to be restricted to Warseer

Yeah, I was talking about your thread on Warseer actually.

But it does show that people are a-holes and will likely be passive-aggressive even more so if they see you using models that cost less $$$ instead of paying full price for certain units they don't like.