Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Given today's power builds are Horde and Elite based which following Space Marine Heavy support would be better in a tournament setting within an all comer's Marine list as a heavy support option:

The Vindicator or Whirlwind


Which is more viable?

Which would cause the most distraction?

I think both; Vindi's are good for short ranged hard targets like DS'ing Termies and Oblits, and Whirlwinds are great for the long range stuff with the added benefit of being able to deny cover saves.

Unless you're using the vehicle in an anti-tank capacity, the Whirlwind is very slightly worse against MEQs and much, much better against any non-MEQ.

6 MEQ in cover (it's 5th ed, everything gets a cover save) Vindicator kills 2.5 on average, Whirlwind kills 1.

6 Ork Equivalent in cover Vindicator kills 2.5, Whirlwind kills 4.

6 Guard Equivalent in cover Gone to Ground, Vindicator kills 1.5, Whirlwind kills 5.

6 Pathfinders in cover, Vindicator kills less than one, Whirlwind kills 5.

Assault Terminators Deep Striking, Vindicator kills 1.5, Whirlwind kills less than 1.

Oblits Deep Striking, Vindicator is dead, Whirlwind shoots some Chaos Marines.

I think the Whirlwind is a better "All Comers" choice. Unless you know you are going to face a lot of Terminators or the like the Whirly should fare better.

Not that the Vindicator won't evoke a lot of "OMG, Kill it NOW" reactions. Suppose it really depends on what the rest of your army looks like.

Fast and Choppy... I'd be tempted to take the Vindicator. Gunline, static SAFH, Whirlwind.

A whirl-wind is truly scarey and a 1st proirty target when I field pathfinders as eldar. 48" range of death (well to virtually all of my availible troop choices) which doesnt need LOS is just scary.

The whole big blast flamethrower attack is pretty fun. Stick to the Orks with fire!

vindicators are crippled by immobilized, weapon destroyed, or vehicle destroyed results, which since they have to be within 24" of bad guys are all too common.

Whirlwinds don't care much about immobilized results, and have the range to start laying down firepower from turn one.

Space marine lists can have so many multi-meltas they don't need to worry about the anti-infantry/anti-vehicle dual role that a vindicator represents, so they're better off going with the cheaper, more specialized option every time.

For chaos, who can have daemonically possessed vindicators, they're a legitimate competition for obliterators... but still not the best thing ever.

willydstyle wrote:Space marine lists can have so many multi-meltas they don't need to worry about the anti-infantry/anti-vehicle dual role that a vindicator represents, so they're better off going with the cheaper, more specialized option every time.

The greatest benefit of the Vindicator over the Whirlwind is not that it can be used against vehicles (which it can, but this is not the most important aspect). If you are looking to compete with the top tier lists (dual Lash + Obliterators, Nob Bikers, Ork horde, Bloodcrusher spam) you will see that the Vindicator is a better choice than the Whirlwind against 3 out of 4 of those lists. And it isn't too shabby against the 4th list (Ork horde) either. Vindicators are excellent against the standard dual Lash + Plague Marines + Obliterators due to their AP (ignores FNP) and high strength (instant death Obliterators). Against the Nob Bikers, they ignore FNP and cause instant death (even on the Warboss, so no taking the wounds on him), which makes it a pretty good weapon to use against the Nob Bikers. Bloodcrushers are another often seen unit, which are very powerful, but also very dead when hit by a Vindicator shot as it instant kills them. The most common troops to go with these Bloodcrushers (Plaguebearers) are another target against which the Vindicator outclasses the Whirlwind, due to ignoring FNP.

Of course, another benefit of the Vindicator is that it can be used against vehicles, but this is not it's primary role. The Vindicator's weakness is, obviously, the short range. As with almost any unit, the advice is to take multiple or none.

no love for the predator?

Airmaniac wrote:
Bloodcrushers are another often seen unit, which are very powerful, but also very dead when hit by a Vindicator shot as it instant kills them.

Daemons ignore instakill. But your other points are valid.

I voted for both. Two Vindicators and a whirlwind will pretty much take care of any army. If you can only take one, go with the whirlwind. It is cheap and stays out of sight. The ability to ignore cover is huge.

Any tanks that you need LOS with you should use in pairs. AV13 is not tough enough to take all the Anti-tank that will be aimed at it. If you are going to use Vindicators, use two.

The whirlwind is the most cost efficient of the two so I would go with it if you are only going to take one. Otherwise, both have their roles and do them well. You just have to decide what you need in your army and pick the one that best fits that.

Consider that for the points of the vindicator, you can almost field a whirlwind and an attack bike with multi-melta.

I choose Vindicator simply because it's so relatively easy to pop the Whirlwind with a throwaway shot. If you have LoS-blocking terrain to hide it behind, then yeah, it's a better choice. On the other hand, if you don't then any hordes general who comes up against it will make it a top priority and it should be dead by turn 2.

i like the vindicator but in the end it all depends if you are regularily facing meqs or guard equivilants because if you always face meqs the whirlwind is useless same thing with a vindicator vs 100 orks

Eh....both vehicles have their specific role on the battlefield, and it really depends on what kind of list you're making or tactics that you're trying to employ.

Depending on the amount of terrain, a Thunderfire Cannon might be a better choice over a Whirlwind. The Cannon has a much longer range and has an s6 & mole shell, plus the Heavy 4 Blast gives you just as much coverage. It's a bit more than the Whirlwind, and you get an extra Techmarine, but it also doesn't have the Barrage to hit concealed targets. Some people might call me crazy, but I like the Cannon.

I think the thunderfire cannon is cool... but isn't it 100 points to the whirlwinds 85?

willydstyle wrote:I think the thunderfire cannon is cool... but isn't it 100 points to the whirlwinds 85?

My mistake; but then again, think about upgrades like a Storm Bolter or Extra Armour that people are bound to put on a vehicle. I think the 15 extra points are worth more ammo types and a Servo Harness Techmarine.

PestilenceBlossom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I think the thunderfire cannon is cool... but isn't it 100 points to the whirlwinds 85?

My mistake; but then again, think about upgrades like a Storm Bolter or Extra Armour that people are bound to put on a vehicle. I think the 15 extra points are worth more ammo types and a Servo Harness Techmarine.

I really doubt that people are 'bound' to put a SB or EA on a Whirlwind. The SB's range is just too short to be worth the extra points, besides the fact that it needs LOS; The Whirlwind BIGGEST strength is it's barrage capability. EA doesn't help the Whirlwind do what it's supposed to, IE: shoot, nor does EA help a Whirlwind survive longer than without it.

Lordhat wrote:

PestilenceBlossom wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I think the thunderfire cannon is cool... but isn't it 100 points to the whirlwinds 85?

My mistake; but then again, think about upgrades like a Storm Bolter or Extra Armour that people are bound to put on a vehicle. I think the 15 extra points are worth more ammo types and a Servo Harness Techmarine.

I really doubt that people are 'bound' to put a SB or EA on a Whirlwind. The SB's range is just too short to be worth the extra points, besides the fact that it needs LOS; The Whirlwind BIGGEST strength is it's barrage capability. EA doesn't help the Whirlwind do what it's supposed to, IE: shoot, nor does EA help a Whirlwind survive longer than without it.

But the EA makes sure that it can still shoot if it gets a Stunned result.

EDIT: Ensures it can still move >_<

Not true. Extra armor only makes it so a vehicle can still move after receiving a crew stunned result.

willydstyle wrote:Not true. Extra armor only makes it so a vehicle can still move after receiving a crew stunned result.

Oh DURR. Now I feel dumb >_>

And here I thought I was the rules lawyer of my group.

Jeez, st10 large blast marker vs St5 large marker... I don't think it's a difficult choice!

sourclams wrote:Unless you're using the vehicle in an anti-tank capacity, the Whirlwind is very slightly worse against MEQs and much, much better against any non-MEQ.

6 MEQ in cover (it's 5th ed, everything gets a cover save) Vindicator kills 2.5 on average, Whirlwind kills 1.

6 Ork Equivalent in cover Vindicator kills 2.5, Whirlwind kills 4.

6 Guard Equivalent in cover Gone to Ground, Vindicator kills 1.5, Whirlwind kills 5.

6 Pathfinders in cover, Vindicator kills less than one, Whirlwind kills 5.

Assault Terminators Deep Striking, Vindicator kills 1.5, Whirlwind kills less than 1.

Oblits Deep Striking, Vindicator is dead, Whirlwind shoots some Chaos Marines.

First of all, Deepstriking oblits w/ multi-melta+lascannon+meltas etc. can destroy or make a whirlwind useless as soon as they drop. Vindicator is no less effective in that scenario.
Secondly, a vindicator kills an average 1.7 oblits per turn (out of a unit of 3)
A whirlwind's pathetic S5 AP4 kills an average of 0.3 oblits per turn (out of a unit of 3)
That means a whirlwind is almost no threat at all to oblits. While a vindie is a big threat if not taken out.

Of course, a smart commander would want to run multiples. If you ran say, 3 vindicators, a unit of oblits could deep strike in and take out one 115 point vindie. On the next turn, your other firepower and vindicators could wipe out the 225 point obliterator squad.




6 Guard equivalent hit by vindicator... 5 of them are wounded, 6+ gone-to-ground save... Vindicator kills 4.17. Whirlwind kills 4.

Secondly, your opponent's entire army isn't always in cover. With how a large number of tables are set up, the majority of your opponents army is outside of cover. A good commander would fire a vindie to blow away a squad outside of cover, and send say, tacticals or sternguard or some unit with 1+ flamers to deal with the guys sitting in trees.

This is not to say that they don't both have strong points. But some people talk as if the enemy is always in cover or out of range or (insert generic criteria here)

Have you played 5ed? Anything important is in cover. And if you're wasting Vindicator shots against unimportant stuff....

Dee-de-dee!

Deep Striking Oblits are rarely going to be "wasted" knocking off a Whirlwind. First off, WWs are usually deployed near the back edge humping the End of the World. It's very likely that Scatter will throw the Oblits off the table. Secondly, the misconception that you just cited, "Str 5 Ap 4 is pathetic", keeps them from attacking the Whirlwind in the first place. If Oblits are porting in to waste a 90 point tank, you just have your Dreadnoughts turn around and blow them off the map. Whirlwind for Oblit squad? I'll make that trade all day.

sourclams wrote:Have you played 5ed? Anything important is in cover.

Have you played 5th ed. competatively yet? Str 8-10 is exceedingly important to instant kill multiwound models and deny FNP even if they are in cover. Not to mention that most of the units you need the Vindicator to kill come with an invulnerable or cover save anyway. Airmaniac is spot on with his argument.

Armor 13 is also a lot better than it used to be. A shaken or stunned or even immobilized vindicator becomes a threat in later rounds.

Your argument that "Obliterators don't care about the Whirlwind and will kill the Vindicator so the SM player shouldn't take a Vindicator" is flawed. If the chaos player doesn't care about the Whirlwind (and he shouldn't) it means that the SM player paid 85 points for a unit that isn't going to contribute to the game. You want your opponent to want to kill all of your units rather than making it easy for him to prioritize targets.

The Whirlwind has its uses against some armies, but in a competative "take all comers" setting the Vindicator is superior.

Daydream

*Edited for Spelling

It depends how you like to play I think. Whatever the objective, I tend tobe someone who plays off of the front foot, advancing as one and pounding the opponent. I use 3 Vindicators and this works just fine for me. The demolisher is possibly the best gun in the whole game.

The Whirlwind is the sneaky man's tank. It works really well in a support role, but can't do everything that a Vindicator can...

I think that in a competitive "take all comers" scenario, having one of each is a good use of heavy support.

Daydream wrote:
Have you played 5th ed. competatively yet? Str 8-10 is exceedingly important to instant kill multiwound models and deny FNP even if they are in cover. Not to mention that most of the units you need the Vindicator to kill come with an invulnerable or cover save anyway. Airmaniac is spot on with his argument.

That's what Meltas, Multimeltas, and Assault Terminators are for. Space Marines have more and better options for taking on high Toughness/FNP models, and far better options for knocking down vehicles. Your Vindicator, with its whopping Side Armor 11, is about as hard to Immobilize/Weapon Destroy as a rhino. Meanwhile Pathfinders or SM Scouts or Gretchin hump the objectives saving on a 2-3+.

Opportunity cost. Vindicators do few things better and many things worse than a Whirlwind.

sourclams wrote:

Opportunity cost. Vindicators do few things better and many things worse than a Whirlwind.

Can't stress the importance of this truism. You take them to fill specific holes in your army, or where you think you're weak. There isn't an all purpose "This is better than that." It all depends on how you plan on fitting it into your army.