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sourclams wrote:

Daydream wrote:
Have you played 5th ed. competatively yet? Str 8-10 is exceedingly important to instant kill multiwound models and deny FNP even if they are in cover. Not to mention that most of the units you need the Vindicator to kill come with an invulnerable or cover save anyway. Airmaniac is spot on with his argument.

That's what Meltas, Multimeltas, and Assault Terminators are for. Space Marines have more and better options for taking on high Toughness/FNP models, and far better options for knocking down vehicles. Your Vindicator, with its whopping Side Armor 11, is about as hard to Immobilize/Weapon Destroy as a rhino. Meanwhile Pathfinders or SM Scouts or Gretchin hump the objectives saving on a 2-3+.

Opportunity cost. Vindicators do few things better and many things worse than a Whirlwind.

By many things worse you really mean "Vindicators have a harder time dislodging weak units in cover". I concede that point is true, but I still contend that it doesn't matter in the big picture.

Meltas and Assault Terminators are great, but are short ranged
and will usually only get off one shot before assault. Multimeltas don't come on enough platforms to be your only source of Str8+ shooting. The problem here is number of shots. To take down enough Nob Bikers/Bloodcrushers/Assault Terminators/etc. you have to be able to shoot multiple rounds. Only the Vindicator really gives you this option with its 24" range. I take multimeltas and assault terminators as well, but one round of shooting/assault just isn't enough.

Not to mention that your basic SM is good enough in assault to go charge onto an objective. All the SM come with frag gernades now so we might as well use them. You don't need a whirlwind to do what your tactical squads should be doing, and that is clearing objectives.

It sounds like you prefer whirlwinds in your heavies and meltas/multimeltas in your tactical squads, while I prefer vindicators in heavy and flamer/multimelta in the tactical squads. All I can say is that I've tried both and prefer the vindicator to the whirlwind with my heavy slots.

Sometimes I use a whirlwind as my 3rd heave after 2 vindicators, but the vindicators are mandatory and the whirlwind is optional.

Daydream

Multi Meltas on too few platforms? Attack Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders.

The Vindicator is *not* good against Nob Bikers. Any good Biker player is going to have them spaced out so that it's impossible to hit more than 2, and any scatters will have you hitting one or none. I mean, 15% of the time you land 2 Vindis on target, you're killing an average of 2 Bikers per turn. That's it. Chaos Vindicators with Lash builds, okay sure, but not for SM.

The SM Vindicator is a 4th edition tank. It kills non-assault Terminators standing in the middle of a field reasonably well, and everything else medium badly.

Again, I talk about Opportunity Costs. While your Vindicators are pie plating 2 Nob Bikers for the single turn they get to fire (because they're going to be assaulted and exploded after that), your Whirlwind could have been knocking down the Boyz and Grots holding the objectives with no saves. Not only is this more efficient, it opens up points for better units to do the job on the Bikers, like Dreadnoughts and Assault Terminators.

It's a 4th edition tank that does pretty well against 4th edition lists. I guarantee you'll have more success running Attack Bikes for the same points.

Yes, too few platforms. Dreadnaughts require drop pods and heavy flamers and then what do you need the whirlwind for? And if you're taking the land raider for the multimelta, you have other issues. It is a good add on, but not the purpose of the unit.

Attack bikes are great, I'm currently running 4. But 1 shot a turn isn't enough. You claim that the vindicator only hits 1-2, but I think you're inexperienced with large blasts in 5th edition. I typically hit 3-4 bikes and I haven't found scatter to matter that much. It is one thing to math hammer a line of models where only a few can be hit, but quite another to move them around terrain and into assault that way.

You keep talking about opportunity cost, but you're advocating a unit that doesn't add to the survivability of the rest of your army. How much do you think an ork player cares if you whirlwind his grots as long as he has his nob bikers? How much do you think a guard player cares that you whirlwind his platoons as long as he has his vehicles? Hom much do you think a tyranid player cares that you whirlwind his gaunts if he still has his TMCs? How much do you think a SM player cares that you whirlwind anything in his army? A vindicator does more against the units that will kill your army than a whirlwind does. After all, it is pretty easy to take objectives when your opponent doesn't have an army to contest them.

I think we've give a good showing for a couple of different viewpoints so I'm done with this thread. Hopefully I'll see you across the table sometime.

Daydream

Daydream wrote:You claim that the vindicator only hits 1-2, but I think you're inexperienced with large blasts in 5th edition. I typically hit 3-4 bikes and I haven't found scatter to matter that much. It is one thing to math hammer a line of models where only a few can be hit, but quite another to move them around terrain and into assault that way.

Then no offense to your play mates, but they are seriously bad. There's absolutely no reason they should have 4 Bikes in a ball like that. I can see 3 occasionally due to terrain, but 1.5 Bikers dead is not exactly bragging rights.

You keep talking about opportunity cost, but you're advocating a unit that doesn't add to the survivability of the rest of your army.

What? A Vindicator doesn't add survivability to an army.

How much do you think an ork player cares if you whirlwind his grots as long as he has his nob bikers? How much do you think a guard player cares that you whirlwind his platoons as long as he has his vehicles? Hom much do you think a tyranid player cares that you whirlwind his gaunts if he still has his TMCs? How much do you think a SM player cares that you whirlwind anything in his army?

When those Grots die/run away and he's left with no objectives while Dreadnoughts kill his Nobs, he cares a lot. When the Guard player can't create a dense gunline because the Whirlwind is squashing a squad of guys a turn and pinning his heavy weapons, he cares a lot. When the Tyranid Player has to choose between tarpitting a unit of Assault Terminators or shuffling troop choices back to an objective so that he can score, a lot. And when the SM player loses his Scouts on a bolstered ruin that see their 2+ save go to no save, that's right, a lot.

A vindicator does more against the units that will kill your army than a whirlwind does. After all, it is pretty easy to take objectives when your opponent doesn't have an army to contest them.

MCs? The Vindi does one wound 1/3 of the time.

Assault Terminators? The Vindi kills a little less than 1 for every 3 it hits.

Attack Bikes? One opportunity to beat 3+ cover saves from turbo boosting, and then the Vindicator is effectively dead once they get within 12".

Rhino full of plague marines? Gotta beat smoke, gotta beat the scatter, gotta beat the damage table, then you have to hope they sit in a circle for another turn so you can line up your 2nd shot.

You're grossly overestimating the offensive power of a Vindicator. Against a player that still thinks he's in 4th edition running Terminators with Assault Cannons, it's a great tank. I never see those players anymore, however.

I think we've give a good showing for a couple of different viewpoints so I'm done with this thread. Hopefully I'll see you across the table sometime.

Daydream

Likewise.

sourclams wrote:Have you played 5ed? Anything important is in cover. And if you're wasting Vindicator shots against unimportant stuff....

Dee-de-dee!

Deep Striking Oblits are rarely going to be "wasted" knocking off a Whirlwind. First off, WWs are usually deployed near the back edge humping the End of the World. It's very likely that Scatter will throw the Oblits off the table. Secondly, the misconception that you just cited, "Str 5 Ap 4 is pathetic", keeps them from attacking the Whirlwind in the first place. If Oblits are porting in to waste a 90 point tank, you just have your Dreadnoughts turn around and blow them off the map. Whirlwind for Oblit squad? I'll make that trade all day.

Have you played 5ed? Most people cannot fit all of their important units into cover. You're living in some magical fantasyland if you think every decent squad you have gets a 4+ invuln the majority of the time. Either that, or they place too much terrain where you play. One or the other.

You just said you're going to be using multiple shooty dreads in the area of a whirlwind. An oblit unit could earn its points back DS-ing in, killing your dreadnaught on one turn, killing another dreadnaught on the next turn, and the whirlwind on the next.

Or if you're sitting there with multiple dreads babysitting your whirlwind (2 las dreads + 1 whirlwind = 355 or more points)

The chaos player can just appear away from your dreads and massacre your army. The point still stands, the whirlwind is worse in every situation against chaos.

If you say oblits could drop in and smoke a WW and then you'd instantly kill them afterwords. The same is true of a vindicator. There's no reason you can't use tactics to kill anything which tries to go around the sides of a vindicator. The only difference is the vindicator could actually pose a big threat if ignored. It has the firepower to actually damage plague marines / obliterators / terminators / vehicles.

Against mass horde armies, whirlwinds become less useless, but remember, they don't soak up fire either.
If you had fielded 2-3 Vindicators and the opponent spent a few turns lobbing 45 Lootaz guns into them, then he's not wiping all your troops and assault squads off the map with his fire power.

If you took a few whirlwinds, might they survive longer than vindicators? Yes. Does that mean they win more games? No. Soaking up tons of fire and focusing the opponent's attention on a weapon that can potentially blast their most elite squad off the board is valuable.