Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just a quick question to all the master tacticians here on the ol' double D.

I'm trying to get some friends of mine into 40K, and we've agreed to try playing 5th Edition at 500pts (a round robin mini-league), to see if they like it without breaking the bank on models. I will rather obviously be playing my Tau, and will probably come up with my own list, but I'm going to have three newbies and would like them to each have agood chance of beating up on my tau and each other, as it's not much fun if they lose badly. So at that low points value, what forces would you recommend?

For my own part, I'd rather do more fluffy Eastern Fringe forces, to whit:

Ultramarines
Tyranids
Orks

But one of them has already said he likes the Thousand Sons background.

What armies would you recommend for the new players?

Also, I'd like to be able to escalate the forces later, so I guess scalability would be useful

Thanks for your guidance

-- Chaplain G

Orks.

Buy a Black Reach box or two and you can supply them with a bunch of models (more than 500 points) without breaking the bank.

I wouldn't suggest any of them doing a marines army. Generally, they get a little nurfed in small games becuase they can't get enough minis on the table for that amount of points.

Swarm armies, IMHO, would be better in smaller games. Orks and Nids would probably be the best thing.


Also, you could just tune down your army to meet the effectiveness of theirs. You could spend points on getting a rediculous unit of battlesuits, an etherial, and some fire warriors, if you want them to do well.

EDIT: I agree with DashOfPepper, that would be good. And you could give the space mariens to somone else, insta two armies!

I think at 500 points every army is fine - what matters is the composition (and the other army's compositions). You don't really have an army at 500 points and the game is not designed for that points level. It's very easy to make broken lists or end up with rock/paper/scissors lists if you want to do that (Oh, don't have an answer for my land raider in your 500 points of guys? too bad for you!).

More mobile armies also tend to be more effective in 500 point games, unless you make sure to play on a 4x4 table instead of 6x4.

well i collect necrons, and they are pretty useless in smaller battles unless against something the same size, i agree with the others, get an assualt on black reach set, theres just about 500 points of both orks and marines, which are both pretty good in 500 points

The black reach set is pretty balanced. All they would have to do is tune out a couple of points from each list, they don't even need to get the codexes becuase of what they give you.

I also calculated that (minus the customization) that the ork player would save around ninety dollars, and the space marine player would save around 30.

Orks are the king of small games, because their only disadvantage (lack of table space to properly deploy) is negated.

Seriously:

60 boys

3 kans

Win.

In general, I would nudge new players to armies they seem to like. There is a much better chance of them sticking with the game if they both like the army and do reasonably well with it. The first part is personal choice. The second part is where your influence will really come in. What you need to do is make sure that when they construct their 500 point forces, they do so in a balanced way. Don't bring a land raider to a 500 point game because no one is going to be able to deal with it. Same thing with things like big nids. There just isn't a good answer for things like that in small games. So it will be your job to make sure you can keep such things off the field.

... orks are good but so are eldar i can fit two small jet bike troop units into 132pts + 138pts Autarch (jetbike + Reaperlauncher + power weapon + banshee mask) that leaves me 230 pts or as i like to call it 2 fire Prisms ... you'll never catch me or out shoot me ...

... but playing this type of army will make you no friends, just say no to mech eldar.

Armies they seem to like...

That's why I got a Tau army when I started playing. Now, not quite a year later I play my wife's Orks more than my Tau because while they sound great fluff-wise, they have very noticeable shortcomings on the battlefield that other armies do not have.

Phoenix wrote:In general, I would nudge new players to armies they seem to like. There is a much better chance of them sticking with the game if they both like the army and do reasonably well with it. The first part is personal choice. The second part is where your influence will really come in. What you need to do is make sure that when they construct their 500 point forces, they do so in a balanced way. Don't bring a land raider to a 500 point game because no one is going to be able to deal with it. Same thing with things like big nids. There just isn't a good answer for things like that in small games. So it will be your job to make sure you can keep such things off the field.

I agree with this. If they have indescision, push them towards the army you think they'd play the best or like the most.

Captain-100
5 man scout squad with CCWs & BP-75
5 man scout squad with sniper rifles-75
Land Raider-250
^ 500 pt space marine list, lol

Making really effective armies at 500 will not be nice. I do think that a fexx nid list will be the nastiest you can get together.

1k sons at 500 isnt even to think about, same with necrons.

Dark Eldar.

2x Ravager w/ three Disintegrators - 240
10x Dark Eldar w/ 2 dark lance - 100
1x Tooled up Archon- 160 ish.

But seeing as your friends would probably look for something still on GW shelves...

Tau, Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar all do pretty well for themselves at the smaller point levels.

I'd even throw in Guard as an option.

Necrons:

Lord
+Rez orb
+Gaze of flame

10 necrons

2x destroyers

1x heavy destroyer.

Not very many units but many do they not die. Also can engage virtually all units. A dedciated CC unit tries to assault a gaze of flame necron unit.. its not so nice.

Razerous wrote:Necrons:

Lord
+Rez orb
+Gaze of flame

10 necrons

2x destroyers

1x heavy destroyer.

Not very many units but many do they not die. Also can engage virtually all units. A dedciated CC unit tries to assault a gaze of flame necron unit.. its not so nice.

How are they gonna WBB with only 1 unit of each after they are destroyed?

Kallbrand wrote:

Razerous wrote:Necrons:

Lord
+Rez orb
+Gaze of flame

10 necrons

2x destroyers

1x heavy destroyer.

Not very many units but many do they not die. Also can engage virtually all units. A dedciated CC unit tries to assault a gaze of flame necron unit.. its not so nice.

How are they gonna WBB with only 1 unit of each after they are destroyed?

Not only that, but where is your other troop choice?

Lack o troop choices aside, the heavy destroyer doesnt even really worry about WBB -he goes off hunting. The destroyers stick with the main group.

But its not legal.. My baaad

themandudeperson wrote:Captain-100
5 man scout squad with CCWs & BP-75
5 man scout squad with sniper rifles-75
Land Raider-250
^ 500 pt space marine list, lol

I wouldn't suggest this list becuase:

That's two easy KP with the scouts
If its an objective grab, the scouts will die easily anyways, and there goes you troops

I will contend that at 500 points orks are the strongest. The biggest weakness of orks is AV 13,14 and you'll just not encounter much of that at 500 points.

HQ
Warboss, PK and BP

Troops
30 shoota boyz, nob with PK and BP
30 shoota boyz

olympia wrote:I will contend that at 500 points orks are the strongest. The biggest weakness of orks is AV 13,14 and you'll just not encounter much of that at 500 points.

HQ
Warboss, PK and BP

Troops
30 shoota boyz, nob with PK and BP
30 shoota boyz

That would be a very good list, in fact that's probably the one I'd suggest the most. You only have 3 KPs, and you have no worry of running out of troops in objective grabs

61 orks sounds a lot but they no save better then 6+ (apart from the warboss and nob who i think must have heavy armour to hit 500pts limit)
There are a lot of guns out there with the range to rip these units apart before they even get into CC and if they don't get the charge there is a good chance they'll lose CC ... out numbering means nothing, only unsaved wounds.

space-marine scouts with Telion are also amazing at this points level ... Telion can snipe out trouble from a unit (like ork nobs and warbosses)

A Good SM list would be :-
Troop
)))Scouts (5) + Sniper rifles + Telion 125pts (Telion, picks out nasties from a far and the snipers are good for any high Toughness that might be there)
)))TacSquad (10) +missile launcher+ flamer + 4 chainswords +powerfist+Drop pod with deathwind 250pts (don't knock the drop pod at this level it gives you the option of getting up close to the enemy or forcing them to go around it to get at your fire base AV12 is not kill-able with out Str6 or above. It will turn up turn 1 and turn 2 onwards it'll be dropping str 5 large blasts at any thing that stupid enough to get close)
HQ
)))Chaplain Cassius 125pts (he Toughness 6 go on try and kill him with strength 4 ...oh and if you charge him into CC, then he and the unit he's joined to re-roll to hit)
or if you want a more shooty army
))) Chapter master 125pts (why? well hes good for dropping an orbital bombardment range unlimited Str 10 AP1 Ordance1 Barrage ... not many things will be able to deal with that)

The point of this list is it can change how it work to better suit the enemy.
need to get up close? your scouts can infiltrate and that drop pods can drop you where your need.
need a fire base? stay back and drop the pod on the far objective.
down side? OK you fielding 4 or 5 kill pts and your playing 17 models against what ever your friend fields ... but then you're almost always going to be facing these kind of odds as a Space marine player.

Tri wrote:61 orks sounds a lot but they no save better then 6+ (apart from the warboss and nob who i think must have heavy armour to hit 500pts limit)
There are a lot of guns out there with the range to rip these units apart before they even get into CC and if they don't get the charge there is a good chance they'll lose CC ... out numbering means nothing, only unsaved wounds.

Agreed. The Ork player better hope for some sympathetic terrain. You could also sacrifice one mob to give a 4+ cover save to one behind it.

olympia wrote:

Tri wrote:61 orks sounds a lot but they no save better then 6+ (apart from the warboss and nob who i think must have heavy armour to hit 500pts limit)
There are a lot of guns out there with the range to rip these units apart before they even get into CC and if they don't get the charge there is a good chance they'll lose CC ... out numbering means nothing, only unsaved wounds.

Agreed. The Ork player better hope for some sympathetic terrain. You could also sacrifice one mob to give a 4+ cover save to one behind it.

Having to cause 40 wounds between the two squads before anything happens is quite significant. 4+ cover save will be applied to the shootas via the slugga boys charging in & if you annhilate the slugga boys (or theres a high-chance to) you can detatch the warboss and have him charge in aswell. Its a viable list at 500pts. It beats all armies so far by 3-1.

but once one unit starts runing it isn't coming back because its under half size ... which is a funny way to lose the warboss

orks are the supreme overlords of small games so if i were you i would not use them. chances are, the ork player will win, if you want it even.

SM-popular/very variable
Tau-shooty
CSM-evil variable
Nids-cc

The Bringer wrote:

themandudeperson wrote:Captain-100
5 man scout squad with CCWs & BP-75
5 man scout squad with sniper rifles-75
Land Raider-250
^ 500 pt space marine list, lol

I wouldn't suggest this list because:

That's two easy KP with the scouts
If its an objective grab, the scouts will die easily anyways, and there goes you troops

I wasn't being serious when I put it together, I just think it'd be funny to see a land raider at 500 pts. Not many players expect heavy armor at that point level. Unless they think to take a meltagun for anti-MEQ purposes. You could tweak it a bit:
Captain-100
5 man scout squad with sniper rifles-75
5 man scout squad with sniper rifles and heavy bolter-85
Land Raider Redeemer-240

Go second, deploy in a corner with your snipers squatting on an objective. Then run the land raider around cooking everything out of cover. At that point level there will be very few things that can easily survive a strength 6 ap 3 weapon, much less one that ignores cover saves and even less that can counter AV 14. Sure, there might be the odd Eldar Bright Lance or Space Marine Multi-Melta, but those (hopefully) can be quickly killed or rendered ineffectual if you focus your power on them. Personally, I think taking a land raider at that point level kinda makes you TFG.

I'd probably use a list that looked more like:
Captain with combi-melta- 110
5 man tactical squad in razorback with TL-heavy bolter and pintle mounted storm bolter-165
10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and meltagun in razorback with TL-plasmagun and lascannon-225

It's high in KP, but you get mobilitily and 1 meltagun, 1 TL-heavy bolter, 1 TL-plasmagun, 1 lascannon and a combi-melta. That gives you plenty of AP1-2 as well as some dakka dakka. Your razorbacks are vulnerable, but they won't face as much dedicated anti-tank fire as they would in a larger game. Also, you have some powerful anti-tank weapons with which to knock out any land raiders some jackhole decided to bring.

I think you guys are missing a really good one.

Dracon w/misc wargear.
4 squads of sniper squad warriors with dark lances.

If you're trying to get people into 40k, "most effective" probably isn't what you want. "Most balanced with few obviously exploitable weaknesses" is probably going to be better. You have even more opportunity to create interesting games if you're suggesting more than one list at the same time.

For Marines, you can do something like this:


Librarian, 100 pts

Tactical Squad, 10 marines, Flamer, Combi-Melta, Plasma Cannon, mounted in TL Heavy Bolter Razorback, 225 pts

Scout Squad, 5 marines, Sniper Rifles, 75 pts

Land Speeder, Multi-Melta, 60 pts

Attack Bike, 40 pts


It's not ungodly, not particularly optimized, but there aren't *too* many 500 point lists it's going to crumple in front of; it has solutions for a lot of problems. More importantly, it showcases a lot of *rules*. You have vehicles (one a transport, one a skimmer), a bike, infiltrators (with scout, to boot), heavy, assault, and rapid fire weapons, blast and flamer templates, and psychic powers. It has a reasonable amount of firepower, and stocks two meltas for tank busting.

You could drop the Attack Bike to swap the Librarian for a Captain with a Relic Blade and Digital Weapons (or other piece of wargear; I honestly haven't looked terribly closely at the math to see what I'd take after the Relic Blade), or Power Weapon and even more toys.

You could drop the Speeder, Bike, and Combi-Melta to take a Dreadnought.

You could drop the Speeder and Bike, take an 85 pt Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolter sponsons, and have some points left over to add more stuff to the tactical squad, or strip it a bit and take a Captain with some manner of powered weapon.


But anyway, raw win power is probably not the best thing in this case. Make lists with options. Not that the options shouldn't be effectiveness, but raw effectiveness should take a back seat to options and rules used.

Lowinor wrote:If you're trying to get people into 40k, "most effective" probably isn't what you want. "Most balanced with few obviously exploitable weaknesses" is probably going to be better.

In that train of thought, here's a sample Tau list:

HQ
1) Shas'el (100)
- Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Target Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker

ELITE
1) 1x XV8 (53)
- Twin-linked Missile Pod, Target Array
2) 1x XV8 (54)
- Plasma Rifle, Flamer, Multi-tracker

TROOPS
1) 12x Firewarriors (120)
2) 13x Kroot (91)

HEAVY SUPPORT
1) 1x Broadside (80)
- Advanced Stablization System