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Broodlord w/5 genestealers 150
2x Elite fex w/twin-link devourers and enhanced senses 226
10 gaunts w/spinefists and without number 80
11 gaunts same as above 88

494 points of killiness

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the old "Combat Patrol" rules as a startpoint for building these small armies.

I realise that some of the restrictions were nasty to some armies, but they should give you a decent start. For example, I don't think there's much point in forcing everyone to include the normal army selection minimums, a HQ + 1 Troops ought to be good enough. Some armies, like IG, can quite happily spend the entire pts allowance on that one Troops choice.

HQ
Command Squad

Troop
5 man grenadiers
5 man grenadiers

Fast
Hellhound
Hellhound
Hellhound

It's hard to beat orks at any point level.

500?

It's a no-brainer that orks are the best.

A good Ork list at 500 were I playing would look something like this.

Ork Warboss-100
Bosspole
Power Klaw
Cybork Body

15 Boyz-100
Nob

15 Boyz-90

3 Koptas-210
Buzzaws
Rokkits

The Koptas SEEM like a bad idea, but I've done great against space marines at 500. Use the koptas for killing vehicles or dead 'ard stuff (termies, etc.) while da boyz and da boss run forwards screamin' WAAGH!

and the army with the most troops does tend to win 500 points of 40k. Not by alot but say, 5% better chance. If you take the time to squeeze as many marine bodies in as possible, it'll usually be better than tooling up one squad of marines and hoping for the best

I wouldn't take three deffkoptas, becuase they're so expensive. I would take two and upgrade some other things in your army, or get another unit.

Personnally play with restrictions on codexes at that level. Do it patrol mission style.

Nothing with 3 wounds. (Avoid the eldar 500 pt army with a wraithlord.)

Nothing better than 2+ armor. ( No tooled up Carnifex, no Terminators...)

No vehicle where the armor exceeds 33. (The big tanks just don't show up.)

1 Troop choice is mandatory. HQ is not. Troop choices must exceed other categories. (i.e. To take 2 heavy choices, you must take 2 troop choices.)

As you grow, you can start introducing things as special scenarios. (e.g. You friend plays marines and he wanted to buy a landraider. Run a scenario where the goal is for landraider to get off the opposite edge. So make it an objective game where the landraider is the objective. If it is on the board at the end the battle is a draw. If he gets it off, he wins. If you destroy it, you win.)

DAaddict wrote:Personnally play with restrictions on codexes at that level. Do it patrol mission style.

Nothing with 3 wounds. (Avoid the eldar 500 pt army with a wraithlord.)

Nothing better than 2+ armor. ( No tooled up Carnifex, no Terminators...)

No vehicle where the armor exceeds 33. (The big tanks just don't show up.)

1 Troop choice is mandatory. HQ is not. Troop choices must exceed other categories. (i.e. To take 2 heavy choices, you must take 2 troop choices.)

As you grow, you can start introducing things as special scenarios. (e.g. You friend plays marines and he wanted to buy a landraider. Run a scenario where the goal is for landraider to get off the opposite edge. So make it an objective game where the landraider is the objective. If it is on the board at the end the battle is a draw. If he gets it off, he wins. If you destroy it, you win.)

Orks already have an advantage at 500 points, and especially because they don't have the problems they encounter in larger games with the actual area the models take up.

All those restrictions do is make life even better for ork players.

Nothing better than 2+ armor... but 4+ armor with FNP is fine?

Nothing with 3 wounds... all of a sudden Chaos or Eldar can't field ANY hqs whether they wanted to or not... yet Orks get bigmeks, one of the best, most cost-efficient HQs in the game.

No vehicles with armor over 33... so no Waveserpents, but 6 kans would be just fine... and would still leave room for 40+ boys. This restriction is also largely obsolete since CC hits rear armor.

I realize that these are the restrictions for the old combat-patrol rules... but there's a reason why those are old rules and not current rules.

If you want a list of restrictions that works with the 5th ed metagame you'll have to design new ones.

How about these:

No vehicles with more than one facing AV 13 or above (makes everything but Leman russes, battlewagons, land raiders and monoliths OK)

No more than 2 vehicles and/or monstrous creatures in a list (gives a player choice between transports, battle tanks, or walkers)

No "unique" characters (3 wounds is too arbitrary... special characters are the real powerhouses nowadays), no HQ choices worth more than 125 points.

I think it would be nice to think of a way to minimize the effectiveness of ork "hordiness" at low points cost, but I can't think of a way to do so without just saying "you can't bring more than xx orks." Plus, even if you make an ork player bring non-boy units, it's not like you can force him to pick from the balanced ones. The fact that orks can bring 80+ wounds to a 500 point game is ridiculous though. Gogo broken codex.

Maybe you should just edit things as you go to keep it even. If one player excells, make it harder for them somehow. Give them harder objectives or restrict certain strategies and units.

I've dragged several of my friends into the game, and typically I find the easiest way is to let them ride coattails for the first few games. For instance, a friend of mine opted for Necrons 3 weeks ago. He went to a website, bought a couple of hundred points worth of miniatures, then fielded them within our armies as a separate allied force. Keeping the battles relatively small, we went with a 1500 point game, and let him build the best group he could out of what he had available to him. Whatever remained out of the 1500 (I think it was 1100 or so points), the ally used to build his own army.

This gave him not only a very good perspective of how his troops performed on the field, but allowed the field to be balanced and roughly like any other game.

In the process, he got to see how well his troops held up to a charge from a group of tyranids that had walked all over a group of orks they charged the turn before giving him that invulnerable feeling that tends to lead toward the purchase of more units.

Not surprisingly, he has already purchased a Monolith to go with his Necron group, and is now looking for good deals on more troops so that he can field an army by himself within the limitations of the rules and start calling out his victories as HIS victories.

For 500 points you could probably run for Chaos:

5 marines = 75
5 marines = 75

chaos lord - 90

1 defiler - 150
2 obliterators - 150

Certainly not economical but I'd like to give it a try

If your friends like the look of the models, a Necron Battleforce pretty much gives you a starting 500 army and isn't too terrible of a force.

olympia wrote:I will contend that at 500 points orks are the strongest. The biggest weakness of orks is AV 13,14 and you'll just not encounter much of that at 500 points.

HQ
Warboss, PK and BP

Troops
30 shoota boyz, nob with PK and BP
30 shoota boyz

My counter list.
1 Slaanesh DP- Lash.
5 Plague Marines w/ 2 Flamers.
5 Chaos Marines w/ 1 Flamer.
2 Obliterators.

Lash will be moving half your army 2d6" every turn (chance to pin afterwards.)

2 Oblits = move-n-shoot plasma cannons / twin-linked Flamers etc.

If your shooties are way in the back, maybe I lash the front squad 2d6" towards me, then hit it with 3 Flamers and 2 Twin-linked Flamers, then charge it with 5 PM and 5 CSM I3-I4 respectively and then I6 DP.


How many orks can a single flamer hit after they've been bunched up as much as possible?

DAaddict wrote:Personnally play with restrictions on codexes at that level. Do it patrol mission style.

Nothing with 3 wounds. (Avoid the eldar 500 pt army with a wraithlord.)

Nothing better than 2+ armor. ( No tooled up Carnifex, no Terminators...)

No vehicle where the armor exceeds 33. (The big tanks just don't show up.)

1 Troop choice is mandatory. HQ is not. Troop choices must exceed other categories. (i.e. To take 2 heavy choices, you must take 2 troop choices.)

As you grow, you can start introducing things as special scenarios. (e.g. You friend plays marines and he wanted to buy a landraider. Run a scenario where the goal is for landraider to get off the opposite edge. So make it an objective game where the landraider is the objective. If it is on the board at the end the battle is a draw. If he gets it off, he wins. If you destroy it, you win.)

I'd change that for 5th. Chances are the SM player will just get his army from the starter box. No Terminators puts a crimp in that, and they're not that unreasonable.

The no armour over 33 also blocks a lot of transports (e.g. Wave Serpents) that would make sense in a patrol force.

TheBloodGod wrote:

olympia wrote:I will contend that at 500 points orks are the strongest. The biggest weakness of orks is AV 13,14 and you'll just not encounter much of that at 500 points.

HQ
Warboss, PK and BP

Troops
30 shoota boyz, nob with PK and BP
30 shoota boyz

My counter list.
1 Slaanesh DP- Lash.
5 Plague Marines w/ 2 Flamers.
5 Chaos Marines w/ 1 Flamer.
2 Obliterators.

A smart ork player will split the boss off of one of the units, as you have nothing that can ID it. Then you have three units to deal with and only one lash. Honestly, I don't think that list is much of a counter against a good player.

Lash will be moving half your army 2d6" every turn (chance to pin afterwards.)

2 Oblits = move-n-shoot plasma cannons / twin-linked Flamers etc.

If your shooties are way in the back, maybe I lash the front squad 2d6" towards me, then hit it with 3 Flamers and 2 Twin-linked Flamers, then charge it with 5 PM and 5 CSM I3-I4 respectively and then I6 DP.


How many orks can a single flamer hit after they've been bunched up as much as possible?

A smart ork player will split the boss off of one of the units, as you have nothing that can ID it. Then you have three units to deal with and only one lash. Honestly, I don't think that list is much of a counter against a good player, although it certainly has a chance.

willydstyle wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:

olympia wrote:I will contend that at 500 points orks are the strongest. The biggest weakness of orks is AV 13,14 and you'll just not encounter much of that at 500 points.

HQ
Warboss, PK and BP

Troops
30 shoota boyz, nob with PK and BP
30 shoota boyz

My counter list.
1 Slaanesh DP- Lash.
5 Plague Marines w/ 2 Flamers.
5 Chaos Marines w/ 1 Flamer.
2 Obliterators.

A smart ork player will split the boss off of one of the units, as you have nothing that can ID it. Then you have three units to deal with and only one lash. Honestly, I don't think that list is much of a counter against a good player.

Lash will be moving half your army 2d6" every turn (chance to pin afterwards.)

2 Oblits = move-n-shoot plasma cannons / twin-linked Flamers etc.

If your shooties are way in the back, maybe I lash the front squad 2d6" towards me, then hit it with 3 Flamers and 2 Twin-linked Flamers, then charge it with 5 PM and 5 CSM I3-I4 respectively and then I6 DP.


How many orks can a single flamer hit after they've been bunched up as much as possible?

A smart ork player will split the boss off of one of the units, as you have nothing that can ID it. Then you have three units to deal with and only one lash. Honestly, I don't think that list is much of a counter against a good player, although it certainly has a chance.

Well, each of the obliterators has multiple ways to instant-death a warboss.

So the warboss will have to end each of his turns joined with them, or he gets instantly shot to death.

On my turn, I can move the warboss+the unit he has to hide with 2d6".

Plus, if for some reason he did separate it, there's a chance on my turn to just walk a unit out of the way and then kill him in one shot.

You need str 10 to ID a toughness 5 character (like a warboss).

willydstyle wrote:You need str 10 to ID a toughness 5 character (like a warboss).

Ah, my bad. Didn't notice he's T5.

If he's pulled to 12" of the oblits, 4 shots, 3.56 hit after TL. 2.96 wound. No armor saves.

On average, the warboss dies in a single barrage. If he survives, Plague Marines or regular CSM should then easily finish him off. Leave the Plagues up closest to the enemy and they charge them. When they eventually kill PMs and CSM, walk backwards with oblits and DP, keep lashing them and obliterating them with plasma cannon fire or stuff.

If the oblits blasted him dead at 12"-ish, then it might be wise to use Run on one squad and put it as a road block in front of orks. Orks attack it, a few of each side dies, the other units are free to run away and shoot and lash.

i actually started such a "mini-league" in my gaming community.
i would strongly recommend you use the comba-patrol rules for this.
we are using them and it works pretty well. keeps the games balanced aswell.

as for the top armies:
#1 - orks, basically any setup with 30 boyz + anything
#2 - lost and the dammned, their chaos spawns are awfully cheap and hit fething hard
#3 - ork speed freaks, one guy in our league is playing them and he's running 15 buggys, trakks and stuff

we held a small tournament at the start of the league and i came in second with my dark eldar
first third and fifth places were taken by orc players

Thanks guys, a lot of suggestions for a lot of brutally nasty forces here, unfortunately due to real life circustances beyond my control, I'm not going to be able to get this thing started.

And as I think I tried to state in my original post, I wasn't necessarily looking for toughest to beat 500pt armies. I meant most effective as for teaching noobs to play. And also most effective in that they can be a viable army at 500, unlike Thousand Sons or similarly high-point-cost armies.

willydstyle wrote:Orks are the king of small games, because their only disadvantage (lack of table space to properly deploy) is negated.

Seriously:

60 boys

3 kans

Win.

Really?

I've also been playing a 500pt league game with my friends. (Were moving up to 750 for the next round), but I honestly did NOT do that well with my Ork army. I thought I would be able to do some serious damage, but I lost pretty badly to SM and Tyranid, and just barely beat Necron.

I can post my army and what faced off against if you want me to

Darkzephyr wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Orks are the king of small games, because their only disadvantage (lack of table space to properly deploy) is negated.

Seriously:

60 boys

3 kans

Win.

Really?

I've also been playing a 500pt league game with my friends. (Were moving up to 750 for the next round), but I honestly did NOT do that well with my Ork army. I thought I would be able to do some serious damage, but I lost pretty badly to SM and Tyranid, and just barely beat Necron.

I can post my army and what faced off against if you want me to

Were the SM and Tyranid players better than you? Was there decent terrain coverage? Did you play to your strengths?