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Does warptime let you re-roll gift of chaos? The wording in the codex seems to indicate no, but i've been told yes in the past. Am i missing something in the wording?

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Does warptime let you re-roll gift of chaos? The wording in the codex seems to indicate no, but i've been told yes in the past. Am i missing something in the wording?

Is Gift of Chaos a wounding roll ?

No.

The roll used by GoC isn't on the list of stuff waptime helps with.

You have been told incorrectly. Warptime allows you to reroll all failed 'to hit' rolls and all failed 'to wound' rolls. Gift of Chaos is neither of these so you cannot reroll it.

If you're wondering about whether Warptime can affect the Gift of Chaos, then you're wondering whether a Tzeetchian Marked model can cast Warptime and then cast Gift of Chaos, and benefit from the combination.

Well, Gift of Chaos won't get better if you cast Warptime first, but it's still a useful combination of powers for a Tzeentchian Sorcerer or Daemon Prince. A Tzeentchian Marked model can cast Gift of Chaos twice, since it's not a shooting psychic power, or Gift of Chaos once to take out a Powerfist and Warptime to beat on the Powerfist-Spawn's former compatriots. A Sorcerer has the option of casting Gift of Chaos twice, Gift of Chaos once and Warptime once, or Warptime and Force Weapon.

The thing about casting Gift of Chaos twice is that you essentially get a re-roll, but also, in case your target succumbed to the lure of Chaos on the first roll, a roll against a different model. Remember that these rolls ignore all saves since they are not rolls to wound. Let's see Eternal Warrior protect you from that!

Nurglitch...
I don't believe, at least from my experience, that you are allowed to cast the same spell twice in a turn, even if those spells are NOT shooting spells. If that logic was true I could theoretically cast Guide or Doom twice and a basic farseer would be insane.

I do not have any references at this time but my reasoning is the old adage of Eldrad the Amazing Farseer. Codex: Eldar specifically allows him to cast the same power twice IF he is not in hand to hand and he uses his Staff of UTI.

Actually on review there is nothing PROHIBITING the use of GoC twice in the same turn.

Codex Eldar specifically states Spirit Stones can not be used to cast the same spell...

Is this really how that is intended to work?

I'm getting this from the CSM FAQ from GW's site:

Powers that are psyshic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack.

paidinfull wrote:Nurglitch...
I don't believe, at least from my experience, that you are allowed to cast the same spell twice in a turn, even if those spells are NOT shooting spells. If that logic was true I could theoretically cast Guide or Doom twice and a basic farseer would be insane.

I do not have any references at this time but my reasoning is the old adage of Eldrad the Amazing Farseer. Codex: Eldar specifically allows him to cast the same power twice IF he is not in hand to hand and he uses his Staff of UTI.

Nurglitch is correct, Its in the Chaos Space Marines FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

Hmm... that specifically refers to Ahriman though
Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times as it is not a shooting attack. (This line is reference only to Ahriman and does clarify that GoC is not a Shooting attack but no where does it PERMIT a player to cast the same power twice, Ahriman excluded) The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point using this power more than once per turn!

After reading that again I am inclined to revert back to thinking that you are NOT allowed to cast the same psychic spell twice.

From what I remember in 4th edition the argument is that casting the same power TWICE is not the same as casting TWO powers, as obviously you are still only using ONE power.

The way I see it is that even though the initial question asked concerns Ahriman, the answers covers any model with the ability to use multiple powers a turn. The first sentence says "Powers that are shooting attacks. . .". It's making a ruling on the power itself, not who's using it. And this states that Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times.

Well, you're taking it completely out of context and if you do that theoretically if I take GoC since it is not a shooting attack and can be used "multiple times" why not just continue to use it until every model within 6" is a spawn? Do you see how basing your interpretation on something out of context can be misconstrued?

I'm sorry but that actually makes me even MORE inclined to feel that your interpretation and Nurglitch's is incorrect.

BlackDracoSLC is right. If the FAQ meant that only Ahriman could cast the same power two or even three times during the same turn, then it would say that 'Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos multiple times as it is not a shooting attack.'

You can't be serious.
I'm sorry but that response makes no sense, it doesn't have to say Ahriman, Ahriman, Ahriman, in order to convey that this reference is only in respects to this Special Character.

If this FAQ is where you are getting the logic to say "Any Mark of Tzeentch Sorcerer can cast GoC multiple times" then you are mistaken. This FAQ is clearly only intended to permit Ahriman to cast GoC multiple times and nothing else, hence:
Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?
A. Yes he can cast GoC multiple times as it is not a shooting attack.

paidinfull:

Chaos Space Marine FAQ wrote:Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?

A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times as it is not a shooting attack. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point using this power more than once per turn!

The fact that psychic powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn is not local to Ahriman. It is a general rule. Likewise the statement made by the second sentence is about the Gift of Chaos in general, not Ahriman's specific use thereof. If it says that the Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, then anyone can use it multiple times. If it says that Ahriman can use the Gift of Chaos multiple times, then only Ahriman can use it multiple times.

The Black Staff of Ahriman allows him to:

1. Make up to three Psychic tests in the same turn, providing only one is used to power his Force Weapon power.

2. Use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase, provided that they are all directed at the same target.

PS - Would you mind posting more clearly by indicating quotations via quotation marks or the quotation function?

Sure I will try to be clearer with my posts.
However, I still disagree, and let me explain why.

I think we can agree that according to the rulebook

P. 50
Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn.

I think we can agree that casting ONE power TWICE is not the same as casting up to TWO powers in a turn. That means that if something allows you to cast two powers they need to be two powers as in GoC + Warptime, because Warptime + Warptime are not "unique" and are infact one power, not two.

p88 C:CSM
The only exception to this is a model with the MoTz, which can attempt to use up to two psychic powers per player turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon, as models can only fire one weapon per Shooting Phase

I think we can agree that only Monstrous Creatures can cast two shooting attacks in a turn per the FAQ and INAT FAQ.

We can also definitely agree that Ahriman can cast GoC up to three times as it is not a shooting attack.

We can also definitely agree that we are NOT talking about Ahriman and the point I was making is that any sorcerer OTHER than Ahriman cannot cast GoC multiple times.

Now, you and others have stated that:

A Tzeentchian Marked model can cast Gift of Chaos twice, since it's not a shooting psychic power, or Gift of Chaos once to take out a Powerfist and Warptime to beat on the Powerfist-Spawn's former compatriots.

You are using this quote to support your logic:

Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times as it is not a shooting attack.

However that is incorrect.
If that statement WAS correct, you could do as I described previously and LITERALLY cast GoC until EVERY model within 6" has been turned into a Spawn.
The rules say you can cast ONE power a turn. That is not "Take ONE psychic test" a turn, but cast one power per turn.
If what you are saying is true, and Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times in a turn it is the SINGLE most powerful spell in the game. Which I believe everyone knows it is cool but not the most powerful spell.

By casting GoC I am within the rules according to the BRB and have cast ONE power per turn.
By casting GoC an infinite times I am not casting more than one power.
By casting GoC an infinite times I am within the C:CSM FAQ

As you can see, it does not work like that. You can't cast GoC twice using MoTz because it is ONE power being used TWICE not TWO powers. Nor can it be cast twice because the FAQ says it can be used multiple times.

The same is true if you have the MoTz and you fail to pass your psychic test, you can not recast the same spell using the MoTz as it is not a second power, merely a second attempt at one power.

I'm positive now that you are not able to cast GoC multiple times unless you are Ahriman.

paidinfull:

Could you please explain what permits Ahriman to cast Gift of Chaos more than once?

His rules are actually different as he is allowed to take 3 Psychic tests not cast 3 Psychic Powers.

p. 51
The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition allows Ahriman to make up to 3 Psychic Tests in the same turn (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weaponin the same shooting phase (he must target the same unit with all of them, however)

Ouch, now that you asked me to look it up, Ahriman is NERFED in 5th.
Due to his wargear, he has MoTz, so he can cast 2 Psychic Powers a turn.
Due to the wording in the C:CSM, he can take 3 Psychic TESTS...
So what does this mean? He can only cast 2 powers a turn... so the mention of casting something a 3rd time is odd and irrelevant.

Also keep in mind that FAQ is from 4th edition and while technically current, clearly doesn't cover the fact that he is now not able to cast 3 spells due to RAW.

Ahriman sucks! B(

paidinfull:

So Ahriman can take can take three psychic tests, but only cast two psychic powers a turn, including more than one shooting psychic power. How does this enable him to cast Gift of Chaos more than once?

Sorry that wasn't a very direct answer.

The FAQ states that he is allowed to cast the GoC multiple times.

Okay, then let me re-phrase my question: How does the FAQ tell us that Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos more than once?

Works for me...
I love GoC so I will use this FAQ to that extent. Drive by GoC!

paidinfull wrote:Hmm... that specifically refers to Ahriman though
Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times as it is not a shooting attack. (This line is reference only to Ahriman and does clarify that GoC is not a Shooting attack but no where does it PERMIT a player to cast the same power twice, Ahriman excluded) The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point using this power more than once per turn!

After reading that again I am inclined to revert back to thinking that you are NOT allowed to cast the same psychic spell twice.

Except that, while the QUESTION specifies Ahriman, the answer only specifies Psychic powers.
The answer was for psychic powers, in general.


Eric

paidinfull wrote:

p88 C:CSM
The only exception to this is a model with the MoTz, which can attempt to use up to two psychic powers per player turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon, as models can only fire one weapon per Shooting Phase

I think we can agree that only Monstrous Creatures can cast two shooting attacks in a turn per the FAQ and INAT FAQ.

We can also definitely agree that Ahriman can cast GoC up to three times as it is not a shooting attack.

We can also definitely agree that we are NOT talking about Ahriman and the point I was making is that any sorcerer OTHER than Ahriman cannot cast GoC multiple times.

Why? What about the above quote indicates that a single power cannot be cast multiple times if the model in question is allowed to use multiple powers? The only indication is that multiple shooting powers may not be used in the same turn. It has been clarified that GoC is not a shooting attack, so that restriction does not apply to GoC.

I have not seen anything posted in this argument to support the assertion that GoC can only be cast a single time by a model with MoTz.

I have not seen anything posted to support the portion of the argument I marked in bold. If GoC were a shooting power, then your argument would be completely accurate, however, GoC is clarified in the FAQ to not be a shooting attack.

Just to add another question to this discussion: If GOC can be cast twice by Mark of Tz sorcerers, doesn't that mean the Aspiring Sorcerer can as well?

Yes, yes it does.

This seems to be a lot of arguing over semantics.
The FAQ directly uses Ahriman's name simply because the question itself was likely asked with Ahriman in mind.

Nowhere does it state that Ahriman has any special power over other sorcerers except that he can use 3 powers per turn. So why can't a MoT model use the power twice? In Ahriman's entry does it say anything along the lines of "This means 'he' can use a power more than once." It doesn't simply because he conforms to all the rules a MoT marked model does except he can use the power 3 times...

Sounds like some people are afraid of Ahriman rolling around inside a Land Raider popping IC's... He's been doing that for sometime now, and will continue doing it for sometime to come.

[EDIT]
I just re-read the FAQ and it's even more clear cut than i had originally remembered. In his answer he doesn't even mention Ahriman.

"Powers that are Psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack."

Ahriman can use 3 psychic shooting attacks per turn if he wishes but they all have to be different as per the FAQ. Says so in his entry. He could potentially fire of a Doombolt, Bolt of Change and Wind of Chaos in one turn.

I don't see the arguement here.

Heres a simple list.

Psychic Capable Model with MoT
1 Psychic Shooting Attack & 1 other
or
2 others

Daemon Prince with MoT
Any combination of Psychic shooting powers and others. As long as the shooting power is not used twice.

Ahriman
Same as the daemon prince except he is allowed an additional power.

Ahriman can NOT cast 3 spells a turn.
MoTz allows 2
the staff allows him to take 3 Psychic Tests.
Taking 3 Psychic Tests is not the same as casting 3 Psychic powers
Stupid huh?

paidinfull wrote:Ahriman can NOT cast 3 spells a turn.
MoTz allows 2
the staff allows him to take 3 Psychic Tests.
Taking 3 Psychic Tests is not the same as casting 3 Psychic powers
Stupid huh?

So if we go by your reading of the rules the special rule giving him extra abilities is pointless? Looks like we won't be following that theory then...

I also like the FAQ question asking if Ahriman can use the same power 3 times in a turn. Wouldn't their answer have been "no, he can only use 2 powers" if that was the case? Instead they simply specifiy that he can't use the same shooting power more than once.

Curious.