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I spent some time last night and this morning reading the Eldar codex. So hear me out and consider where I'm coming from....

After some thought and with the idea of having an Autarch in army list.

3 squads of 5 Swooping Hawks (SH) w/ Exarch equipped with Sky Leap... 133 points each. Starting turn 2, with help from Autarch's master strategist rule, would deepstrike in, drop the grenade pack, str 4 ap 5 big blast, and fly back up (sky leap) (never being on table to be shot at).

The grenade pack only scatters d6 if not on target.

Doing this for turns 2, 3, 4, 5. On turn 5 they deepstrike on or near objectives opponent controls and run to within 3". I know this all relies on scatter from deepstike, but does it seem worthwhile?

Orks and any 5+ save units will hate seeing x3 big blasts coming down every turn, if reserve rolls are good. This is all pending if sky leap works how I suggest.

Opinions please....

Definitions..........Sky Leap-- During Eldar movement phase they may be removed and sent to reserves to be rolled for and arrive by deepstrike.

Yes, it does work that way...it is called Yo-Yo Hawks, and thanks to the nerf to glancing hits/haywire grenades, it is the only way to use them effectively in 5th.

However, I still think that it is a waste of points, as it is very gimicky and relies on good reserves roles. This will be a problem when the new IG codex comes out next month as your reserves roles against them will suffer a -1 penalty thanks to the astropath. Yes, you have an Autarch, but that just takes you back to normal reserves roles.

But hey, it is legal, so if you have the models and want to try it, then go for it... I just wouldn't buy the models to try it out

I agree... I hate to roll reserve dice just as a rule. Having to do it every single turn? Not for me. I think where they still shine is against vehicles. With all the fast moving tanks, hitting with haywire grenades on 4+ or better is very nice.

A lot of people call this Rubber-Hawking. Its legal, altough against armies with 4+ armor saves or better you are better off just shooting. The sunrifle is great, Assault 6 and it pins!

I think that they're still good against vehicles and less mobile infantry. But you're certainly right about just shooting and trying to pick off tanks.

Gimmicky? Hate rolling reserves?

Sure it's gimmicky, but sometimes gimmicks are needed.

The Autarch +1 to reserves roll helps wth getting more relible rolls

I will try before I buy models.

Well maybe you do better with the rolls than I do, but whenever I roll to get my genestealers on the board to outflank I rarely get what I'm looking for. +1 is good but for me that just leaves too much change, especially when it would be multiplied by several times.

I could see some complaints if it was just one squad, but with 3 there should be some consistancy.

A breakdown of turns and what is needed to roll....

Turn 2 on 3+
Turn 3 on 2+
Turn 4 on 2+
Turn 5 automatically per game rules

While not quite a given every turn, 66.6% per squad on turn 2 and 83.3% per squad on turns 3 and 4. I'll take that.

I will test vs. Orks and Space Marines and give results.

Biggest obstacle will be not scattering into terrain or opponents squads. I will play it safe and place in least dangerous areas.

Don't forget random game length. On turn 5 do you Leap again and risk losing them (not on table at game end=Dead) or leave them and risk them getting shot/beaten to crap?

It's kinda silly to spend 500 pts. on maybe 3 blast templates a turn.

My favorite Swooping Hawks strategy (since 2nd ed.) has been to leave them in there little clear blister pack on the store shelves. Works every time!

399 pts.

Just trying something different. More than likely they will be on table for good turn 5 til end of game.

BTW nice quote by Sourclams

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:399 pts.

It's 396 for the Hawks and at least 70 for the Autarch, assuming a bit of kit I said 500. so it's "around 500".

Just trying something different. More than likely they will be on table for good turn 5 til end of game.

I can appreciate doing something different, I just don't think its worth it. As long as you know that...have fun!

BTW nice quote by Sourclams

I thought so too!

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I could see some complaints if it was just one squad, but with 3 there should be some consistancy.

A breakdown of turns and what is needed to roll....

Turn 2 on 3+
Turn 3 on 2+
Turn 4 on 2+
Turn 5 automatically per game rules

While not quite a given every turn, 66.6% per squad on turn 2 and 83.3% per squad on turns 3 and 4. I'll take that.

Except against the new IG codex, with their new Astropath it will be
Turn 2 on 4+
Turn 3 on 3+
Turn 4 on 2+
Turn 5 auto...just like everyone else.

This is because the Astropath gives you a -1 to reserve roles. Kinda hard to build an all comers list w/o taking that into consideration, given all of the FOTM IG armies that WILL be popping up this summer...not counting the die hards that will tweak their old lists.

multiple autarchs give cumulative bonuses.

Works, but your opponant may punch you in the face.

Reecius wrote:Works, but your opponant may punch you in the face.

Why? For less points you can get a much stronger large blast from a fire prism.

I will take a horde army and deploy my army so that they cover the whole table to force mishaps.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I will take a horde army and deploy my army so that they cover the whole table to force mishaps.

G

And since Eldar are usually in a pretty precarious situation when it comes to on-the-table force anyways due to overpriced models... having 500 less points of stuff for your opponent to focus on is only a bad thing for the Eldar player.

If my opponent offered to play me 1500 vs. 2000 but he gets three frag missile blasts every turn (I know, it's an exaggeration)... I'd take him up on it every time.

It's actually really fun and flavorful but I would not call it competitive in the least.

well actually the best tactics for swooping hawks is to ds , drop template on a squad , ds next to ANOTHER squad and shoot the crap out of them .
this only works against horde enemys , imo

The, in my opinion, best strategy for Hawks is to DS in, bomb a squad, and land near ther bombed squad. Then, unload on the survivors.
Next turn, you can leap back up.
And Sunrifle is definately worth it.

If you want 3 blast templates a turn, spend 450 on 3 Fire prisms. More powerful and versaitle blasts, and, unlike hawks, hard to kill.

Just my two cents.

Ah yo-yoing swooping hawks. Really annoying to play against but as eldar your points should be spent elsewhere (you need everything on the table). Add in the Phoenix Lord (cant spell name) and thats 4 blasts, all yo-yoing...shame its so easy to counter.

You just put everthing into cover, its only what a str 3/4 large blast ap 5 (or something like that)? With cover in 5th being easy to obtain even hord armies can avoid this tatic (2 KFF Big Mekks everthing within 6" of them).

Exarch_Nektel wrote:The, in my opinion, best strategy for Hawks is to DS in, bomb a squad, and land near ther bombed squad. Then, unload on the survivors.
Next turn, you can leap back up.
And Sunrifle is definately worth it.

that's what you would do against marines , but you don't wan't to use them against marines , a 10 man squad costs as much as 2 prisms which do the job 1000x better

I agree with the prism idea... Much better use of points.

Sometimes I wonder if people read the whole thread oo just bits and pieces. <did I say that out loud, damn>

To clarify.....

Swooping Hawks are fast attack choices.

I want to try something different THAN the double Seer Council list I will be playing competively.

I have x2 Prisms in my list.

I have at least seven Ork players in my area.

A large blast, str 4, ap 5 is a viable threat. If you don't think so look at it like a flamer template (doesn't ignore cover) or large frag missile hitting. I can do this every turn x3 sqds.

The switch of 1 Farseer and warlock group to Swooping Hawks x3 is pretty close.

Like I said I will play it out with some proxies and let you all know.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I will take a horde army and deploy my army so that they cover the whole table to force mishaps.

G

<enter>

WTF?

You can only deploy in your area. I can land SH anywhere and drop blast anywhere.

Will I lose some to mishap table? Probably every once in awhile, but because of my mistake, not the opponent's.

SH's mission is to soften up opponent's squads so I can wipe out with my other shooting.

Eldar shock troops, IMHO

<exit>

Just remember what people have been saying, which is completely true, this is cover save 40k, not regular 40k. The big mek will definitely be presenting some problems, as well as the scatter dice.

And you seem to believe that all 3 squads will arrive and scatter on target every single turn over the course of 3 turns. I've seen the math hammer but still, do you really think it's wise to assume you'll be getting everything you want every turn?

Like you said though, try it out, see how it works, and give us a verdict. And if you do get all the rolling you want (especially considering the number of times you'll be doing it), please tell me what dice you're using, your rolling style, and what prayer you say beforehand.

I, too, have done the mathhammer.

A breakdown of turns and what is needed to roll....

Turn 2 on 3+
Turn 3 on 2+
Turn 4 on 2+
Turn 5 automatically per game rules

Except for turn 2, I like a 5 out of 6 chance. Will I roll 1's, sure. Will I scatter bad, obviously.

When I play 40k I assume the worst will happen and play with that understanding. With that in mind once every other turn I should miss one unit, if we go by the numbers.

On dice.... I use large red casino dice. I cup them in both hands and roll on table. I can for sure say I would never be accused of shady rolling.

What a large blast can cover......
16+ tight packed Orks, 5+ spaced out Orks. I'll take that. Over the course of game I would think SH's would take toll on horde armies and cause enough grief to MEQ's to pay for themselves.

Look, I'm not saying these guys are the end all and be all of the Eldar codex. I'm just saying in theory they could make sense.

Quick question for ya......

What does Ork player do? Spread his orks out to avoid blast templates OR keep them close to get KFF save.

Just saying

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
What does Ork player do? Spread his orks out to avoid blast templates OR keep them close to get KFF save.

Just saying

He only needs one member of the mob to be within 6" of the KFF mek in order to get cover saves for the whole mob...so yeah, he spreads them out. I do it all the time