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Please consider this when responding.

I have 1300+ worth of other Eldar stuff engaging enemy, not just Swooping Hawks and Autarch.

Obviously, I'm not stupid enough to think SH's will get job done on their own. They have a role, nothing more, nothing less. They are a hinderence to opponent that can't be shot at. Eliminated only by dumb luck and misplacement on deepstrike.

I'm looking for 500 point switchout for my 2nd Seer Council squad.

I threw a list together. I know it will require alot of skill to keep things alive through game. My plan is to react to where the gernades do some damage and wipe that threat out completely and move on.

x2 Fire Prism
x3 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch and Sky Leap
x3 6 Bikes w/ 2 cannons
x8 warlocks w/ 6 destructors, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, bikes
Farseer w/ stones, warding, singing spear, doom, fortune, bike
Autarch w/ lance, bike

1850 pts

I may of missed some gear, but this is close to what I was thinking. Yes, it's light on anti-tank. I could knock one bike squad out and make 2 9 elf bike squads or add 3rd Prism. Mainly an alternate list.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Farseer w/ stones

Heck yeah man, I'd have stones too if I was running with that list. After reading this thread and seeing where you're going with it, I think it's a great idea! Hordes will be a blast to fight. Pun definitely intended.

If you get a chance to playtest this more than once, maybe try landing and firing for a turn or two. I want to hear your experiences because this sounds like a cool idea, and I know I won't get a chance to try it, even in proxy, anytime soon. Maybe post a battle report with some linkage in here? Even just your findings and impressions would be good to hear.

willydstyle wrote:

Reecius wrote:Works, but your opponant may punch you in the face.

Why? For less points you can get a much stronger large blast from a fire prism.

Its annoying, that is why your opponant might be pissed.

Or why does it work? Because you have a unit that does fair damage and can not be hit.

We have an Eldar player in our local play group with an Autarch and 1 Exarch Rubber-Hawk unit. They work fairly effectively. However, most games, they succeed in taking out 2 Mortar Squads for example. The 2 Mortar Squads cost 160 pts. The Eldar player usually chooses targets that are not in cover, because he has found that the blasts are not so effective against cover saves. And no one leaves important units out in the open. My mortar squads are usually tucked in a place where drawing los on them is impossible. I guess he figures the rubber-hawks are the only chance at getting a shot on them.

I don't know if this information helps you any, but it seemed pertinent.

Reecius wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Reecius wrote:Works, but your opponant may punch you in the face.

Why? For less points you can get a much stronger large blast from a fire prism.

Its annoying, that is why your opponant might be pissed.

Or why does it work? Because you have a unit that does fair damage and can not be hit.

A warboss was heard saying.....

Dos 'irds are sur dopping da biggest poops. We 'eed more dakka.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Don't forget random game length. On turn 5 do you Leap again and risk losing them (not on table at game end=Dead) or leave them and risk them getting shot/beaten to crap?

Objective games it's ok, but kill points they are on table.

It's kinda silly to spend 500 pts. on maybe 3 blast templates a turn.

Yet, it's fine to spend 540 pts on 3 SM tactical sqds with frag missiles. Go figure.

My favorite Swooping Hawks strategy (since 2nd ed.) has been to leave them in there little clear blister pack on the store shelves. Works every time!

Tight strategy!

I agree with the SM comment... Why do marines have such special status and points sinks are so readily accepted? I'm glad you're committing to keeping them on the board and not doing the yo-yo maneuver ALL the time. Any games in the near future?

This my personal use of swooping hawks ... if you take 5 hawks with no up grades you have a very cheap anti tank unit ... stick them in reserve and deep strike in for a single SHGP and then hide for a turn ... then jump out and attack any vehicle with in 12+2d6".

Like I've said before, hawks hitting on no worse than 4+ is amazingly useful.

I played 2 games on Sat.

Game 1 vs Shooty Bugs
his list

Tyrant with x2 guard. Tyrant had 12 str 5 shots forget weapon.

x3 sqds 6-7 Warriors stranglers and spitters

x4 of WON termagaunts with borers and devourers.

x3 dakka fexes with 2 save

my list

x2 Fire Prism
x3 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch and Sky Leap
x3 6 Bikes w/ 2 cannons
x8 warlocks w/ 5 destructors, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, x1 singng spear, bikes
Farseer w/ stones, warding, doom, fortune, bike
Autarch w/ lance, bike

Mission.....Seize ground (6 objects) Pitched Battle

I deploy seer council, farseer, autarch, and x2 prisms. He drops everything. He steals intiative.

Turn one
He moves forward and immobilizes 1 of my prisms. Thats it.

My turn I shoot some Warriors

Turn 2.
He moves forward and shoots a couple seers.

My turn
2 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill off warrior and 1 gaunt, sky leap with both. 3 bike squads come in and I shoot Warriors

turn 3.
He wipes 1 bike sqd. 1 more seer.

my turn
2 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill 2 warriors, 3 gaunts
last bike sqd comes in.

turn 4
I don't remember much of his turn.

my turn
3 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill warrior and gaunt. I make big mistake with council and get pummeled for my greed. I wanted to destructor tyrant and catch gaunts in front of them, but I didn't kill enough gaunts to get charge on Tyrant. So I was hanging in wind.

turn 5

He shoots my council with 3/4 of his army. I lost 2 seers.
He charges my councils with tyrant, x2 tyrant guard, carni, sqd of gaunts. I win by 1 wound he makes saves.

my turn
3 of 3 come in, land safe, kill 3 gaunts. Random killing in HtH. I control 1 of 6 objects. My opp controls 0. Damn game went on.

turn 6
He kills my last scoring unit. He insta kills Autarch with Tyrant.

my turn
3 of 3 Hawks come in and land safe. I kill 3 gaunts from blast and 3 more from shooting. I lose last seer and no longer contest objective via my Farseer is 4 inches away and bogged in HtH.

I lose 1-0 and know I have to play council better. I wasted 3 turns of doing nothing worth a damn. My Hawks underpreformed. Scattered weird and rolled too many 1's to wound.

Game 2 vs Orks

I drop 1 sqd of hawks, change some gear and add 4th bike sqd with x2 cannons.

He had x2 trukk boyz, battle wagon with (x4 BS, kill cannon, cannon), x2 looted wagons, 15 lootas, 8 nobs with painboy, warboss, x2 slugga boyz sqds (20ea), x2 shoota boyz (20ea)

Anihilation/ Pitched Battle

He deploys first along full board. I reserve whole army per request from DAaddict to see if like how that plays out.

turn 1
He advances, but doesn't run.

turn 2
He advances and runs

my turn
I get all, but Hawks and 1 bike sqd. I drop Battle wagon, and trukk.

turn 3

He kills 2 bikes sqds with shooting.

my turn I drop both hawks and keep them on. I kill lootas with shooting and charge. At his point I broke his left flank and rolled him up. Store was closing and at last count I was up 9+ to 3 in kill points.

So I'm not so boastful on Hawks ATM. They underperform doing the rubber trick due to my bad rolling of dice. They do have role, but so many other things can probably do better.

I play against Black Templars on Sunday. I'll see how Hawks do vs. MEQ's.

Sorry if details were sketchy I was doing many things besides playing game. I screwed up on many levels vs. Bugs, but I'm new to Eldar (2 game prior). Ork game was at point where doing sky leap was just rubbing salt in Orks wounds. Not that I'm against that, lol.

More later...

Cool that you are sticking to your guns and trying things out.

3 Squads seem a bit overboard for how many points you are spending; roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of an army. While I have a fondness for Swooping Hawks, I also say this is too much to spend on them. They just aren't effective enough.

I'd love to put 1 unit in my own army, but fear they just won't do enough. But, there would be cool points for actually bringing a unit of Hawks in a tourney setting. If you lose, it was expected. If you win and with using Hawks, maybe you know something others don't....

Basically, part of the fun is the challenge of learning how to make units work, especially units that most have completely written off.

Looking forward to seeing how your Hawks fared on Sunday.

Well it's sort of like I was called out by the community, lol. I took it as sort of a challenge. General opinion is the Hawks are subpar. They really aren't that bad. A breakdown.

21 pts each, jump troop, fleet of foot, 24" range str 3 ap 5 assault 2 gun, Exarch can have sky leap and Sun rifle that is assault 6/pinning.

Not bad. Not a squad you can throw in an opponent's face and expect them to stay there. More of a fight on flanks and take advantage of speed type unit.

Games are/were at 1850 pts.

What hurt was the poor dice I threw when trying to wound. So many 1's.

My friend, DAaddict was up to watch and we broke it down. I could play x3 squads of 5 Hawks OR 10 DA's in serpent and x5 pathfinders. Umm yeah!

All hail to being fluffy.

I bought one box of Hawks. I will probably get 1 more.

***side note I didn't lose a single Hawk to either Bugs or Orks, from shooting or random scatter from DS

Spreading out does have limitating factors, dont forget.

All those shoota boys wanna unload into a tasty guardain squad. Are they spaced out? How many are actually in range?

Razerous wrote:Spreading out does have limitating factors, dont forget.

All those shoota boys wanna unload into a tasty guardain squad. Are they spaced out? How many are actually in range?

Most of them

6" move + a 18" shooting range ginves them a 24" threat range...and all they have to reach is 1 guardian to kill the entire unit in 5th.

Glad to see you trying your ideas out. Despite our negativity. I myself like playing non-traditional (competitive?) units/builds as a challenge. I just can't stand the Hawks...ugh!

VS. MEQs will be the true test I would think though.

please continue playtesting this.

I love the concept.

I think the thing most people aren't considering is the fact that these hawks are indestructible if you want them to be. you jump in and out then on turn 5, you land on objectives. Chances are by turn 5, their ability to wipe 3 undamaged hawk squads is somewhat reduced. you could land 1 squad on an objective turn 5, and skyleap the other 2. land another on the objective on turn 6 (to replace the previous one if it was killed) and another one on turn 7. This way you are guaranteed an objective no matter the game length (and you have 2nd turn)

You can use two autarchs to get a +2 bonus, but I prefer to use a larger squad and keep them on the table. With a 12' jump move and a assault 2 24' gun, even if it is only s3, the hawks can provide annoyance to any enemy unit.

Use them as a distraction to pick off weak units or hit a tank in the back field. The hawks range lets them back up assault units or avengers without having to be close by, which is a rarity in the eldar list. Yes, hawks die easily, but the point is to use them to turn things around and force your enemy to sit still or change direction to deal with them.

Guard and foot orks especially will devote units to take them out, breaking up their advance.

@DoctorKnockers That'd be great, except the swooping hawks aren't troop choices, they're fast attack. So all you could really do is keep an enemy from claiming an objective

Vs Black Templars today I played 2 squads of 5 with Exarch and Sky Leap.

Capture and Control / Annihilation I won roll and shipped 1st turn to him.

turn 2

2 of 2 came in, landed safe. Templates scattered horribly and I killed one BT initiate.

turn 3

2 of 2 came in, 1 sqd landed safe the other went 11" into terrain and I rolled two 1's. Filthy scattering, again. I got a Sword Bretheren and Black Templar. Stayed on table. Shooting was horrible.

turn 4

One squad was shot and assaulted off table by Sword Bretheren. One remaining Exarch from other smaller squad Sky Leaped.

turn 5

1 of 1 came in safely. Scattered 8" off targt landing point. Scattered template off target, again. Fleeted 2", but not within opponent objective.

turn 6

Hawk Exarch was shot off table.



Game ends in 1-1 draw. I had mine with 3 bikes. He had his with 1 Templar.

Failure for the Hawks. Next Saturday I'm giving it one more go with Hawks. Going to use Sunrifle on Exarch.

Meanwhile my bikes need paint.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I played 2 games on Sat.

Game 1 vs Shooty Bugs
his list

Tyrant with x2 guard. Tyrant had 12 str 5 shots forget weapon.

x3 sqds 6-7 Warriors stranglers and spitters

x4 of WON termagaunts with borers and devourers.

x3 dakka fexes with 2 save

my list

x2 Fire Prism
x3 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch and Sky Leap
x3 6 Bikes w/ 2 cannons
x8 warlocks w/ 5 destructors, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, x1 singng spear, bikes
Farseer w/ stones, warding, doom, fortune, bike
Autarch w/ lance, bike

Mission.....Seize ground (6 objects) Pitched Battle

I deploy seer council, farseer, autarch, and x2 prisms. He drops everything. He steals intiative.

Turn one
He moves forward and immobilizes 1 of my prisms. Thats it.

My turn I shoot some Warriors

Turn 2.
He moves forward and shoots a couple seers.

My turn
2 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill off warrior and 1 gaunt, sky leap with both. 3 bike squads come in and I shoot Warriors

turn 3.
He wipes 1 bike sqd. 1 more seer.

my turn
2 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill 2 warriors, 3 gaunts
last bike sqd comes in.

turn 4
I don't remember much of his turn.

my turn
3 of 3 Hawks come in, land safe, kill warrior and gaunt. I make big mistake with council and get pummeled for my greed. I wanted to destructor tyrant and catch gaunts in front of them, but I didn't kill enough gaunts to get charge on Tyrant. So I was hanging in wind.

turn 5

He shoots my council with 3/4 of his army. I lost 2 seers.
He charges my councils with tyrant, x2 tyrant guard, carni, sqd of gaunts. I win by 1 wound he makes saves.

my turn
3 of 3 come in, land safe, kill 3 gaunts. Random killing in HtH. I control 1 of 6 objects. My opp controls 0. Damn game went on.

turn 6
He kills my last scoring unit. He insta kills Autarch with Tyrant.

my turn
3 of 3 Hawks come in and land safe. I kill 3 gaunts from blast and 3 more from shooting. I lose last seer and no longer contest objective via my Farseer is 4 inches away and bogged in HtH.

I lose 1-0 and know I have to play council better. I wasted 3 turns of doing nothing worth a damn. My Hawks underpreformed. Scattered weird and rolled too many 1's to wound.

Game 2 vs Orks

I drop 1 sqd of hawks, change some gear and add 4th bike sqd with x2 cannons.

He had x2 trukk boyz, battle wagon with (x4 BS, kill cannon, cannon), x2 looted wagons, 15 lootas, 8 nobs with painboy, warboss, x2 slugga boyz sqds (20ea), x2 shoota boyz (20ea)

Anihilation/ Pitched Battle

He deploys first along full board. I reserve whole army per request from DAaddict to see if like how that plays out.

turn 1
He advances, but doesn't run.

turn 2
He advances and runs

my turn
I get all, but Hawks and 1 bike sqd. I drop Battle wagon, and trukk.

turn 3

He kills 2 bikes sqds with shooting.

my turn I drop both hawks and keep them on. I kill lootas with shooting and charge. At his point I broke his left flank and rolled him up. Store was closing and at last count I was up 9+ to 3 in kill points.

So I'm not so boastful on Hawks ATM. They underperform doing the rubber trick due to my bad rolling of dice. They do have role, but so many other things can probably do better.

I play against Black Templars on Sunday. I'll see how Hawks do vs. MEQ's.

Sorry if details were sketchy I was doing many things besides playing game. I screwed up on many levels vs. Bugs, but I'm new to Eldar (2 game prior). Ork game was at point where doing sky leap was just rubbing salt in Orks wounds. Not that I'm against that, lol.

More later...

I'm just surprised that you got exactly what you wanted. Looks like it's worth it to have the autarch in there for your rolls. Too bad there isn't anything to help you reroll for scatter. From what you say it sounds like if you could have done that to get better placement things would have worked out a lot better. So it seems like you are spending too many points for what you want. My question is this: What do you think could fill the roll better than all the hawks? I'm currently building an eldar force and would like to see your ideas on fast assault. I know spiders are out for me because of the negative modifiers because of their AP -. Any ideas on where you might go from here?

You know, older-edition Hawks are usually pretty cheap on eBay in large amounts. I've got 20ish thanks to such deals. I'd hoped to field them vs. IG in Apoc, but even there there are so may things that are just more useful for the points. Maybe if I field my full 20K in a single game they'll come out.

The bouncing Hawks thing seems like a nice single-unit combined-arms solution to indirect fire infantry units hiding behind LOS-blocking cover. That's a pretty uncommon situation though, and so many other fast Eldar units can take out the same targets almost as well. Hawks just aren't a good deal.

Glad to see its working for you. I personally think 2 squads is what you need to make hawks effective, perhaps next time you can try not yo-yoing them ever turn that way you can get some more shooting in (or are you doing that already?)

The yo-yo has to be done til turn 4+, otherwise your opponent shoots them off table. Rumor is that's not good.

I like the Hawks almost to the point being just stubborn. They came in very close to everytime, except that turn I rolled two 1's. The 5" blast was scattering too much with just 1d6. That was frustrating. Rolling to wound was average or below.

I'm doing the jetbike Seer Council, 4 - 6 man bike squads, x2 Fire Prisms.

In the Fast Attack dept. I'm going to run at least 3 vypers with scatterlasers and shuriken cannons. Squad of 3 comes to 210pts . I may add 5 pathfinders for 120 pts to park on my objective and cause trouble for opponents.

I'm not locked into anything, yet. Trying to do something other than the double Seer Council for casual play.

Also, I need to try that Sun Rifle. 6 shots at BS 5 is really good.

147 points for a fluffy squad isn't to bad.

What makes the squad more "fluffy" than other choices?

willydstyle wrote:What makes the squad more "fluffy" than other choices?

Ummm errrr I don't know.

Hawks in a list just has to be fluffy, lol.

Love Swooping Hawks.

I take 9 + Exarch+skyleap+intercept+sunrilfe = dead tau, orks, dark eldar, imperial guard and nids

I love these guys against low T units they eat them and pin [due to sunrifle and a possible 6 pinning tests] and they have heaps of shots.

Squig, the sunrifle can only cause a single pinning test -

"if a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must take a pinning test"

one weapon = one test.

your pathfinders still cause a pinning test for every model they kill, as there is multiple pinning weapons in the unit.

Have you been Dooming the unit that is being targeted by the Hawks? The Str 3 weapon just doesn't seem like it would do enough wounds without the help.

Also, would running bigger squads make a difference? I know that's what changed the game for my Spiders (the other shunned FA unit). 10 Spiders on there own just didn't cut it. 2x9 with Exarch in each does.

Thanks for the reports. Nice to see someone actually using them and sharing some experiences.

cheers!

kh