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I'd like to get a little discussion going about Marines in general, because I've been having a hard time wrapping my head around them to make workable lists. Marines(and chaos marines to some extent) are a very versentile list, you can make a lot out of them but that also gives you the potential to screw up a lot, I've noticed from first hand experience.

HQ: With 5 HQ choices and too many special characters to count, I've had a real hard time picking a good HQ choice. The special characters make your army more unique and focused, Vulkan being great if you want to drop pod / deepstrike a lot of flamers and meltas, Pedro for loads of Sternguard, and such on. My bigest problem is that I don't know what leader to put in what squad, as all of them benifits greatly from geting into close range / close combat.

The regular Captain and Chapter Master are melée monsters, I tend to give them expensive close combat weapons, such a twin lightning-claws or power fists. I often think a regular Power Sword are wasted on them, since they won't be able to take down anything nasty. Since they are so good to hold their own, I usually put them in a tactical or sternguard squad that rolls forward in a rhino or drop pod, to either to just detach and charge out of, or support a friendly charge. I'm not sure how good Command Squads / Honour Guards are, but I tend to favour more scoring units over them. Anybody can comment on these?

Chaplains seem to go best by joining already powerful melée squads, to make them even more deadlier. He seems to go very well with Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines or Assault Terminators.

The Librarian and the Master of the Forge is definetly the most shooty of the HQs, though I've yet to found way to use Conversion Beamer. MotF seems best alone, but he tends to get lascannon/railgun sniped. Not entirely sure about the Psychic Powers either, the flamer power and Strength of the Ancients is definetly good if you are going for a fast attack(jumpjets, rhino or droppod I suppose) aproach. Not entirely sure about Quickening, that seems like a last ditch power you use if you realize his squad wont reach assault range, and you detach him to charge in solo. Librarians seems to be best on quick assault though, either joining a drop pod or assault marines, for some Avenger or Smite goodness. Would an Epistolary with Smite(the ap2 str 4 assault 4 power) and the flamer power in a drop pod be a good combination, perhaps with a tactical squad?

Troops:

Well, the most bland of marines are also the most important, with 5th edition scoring unit rules. I try to keep two squads of tacticals in any 1000 list, and try to fill out the gap with a scout squad. In 1500-2000 I usually bring three or four tactical squads.

The Tactical Squads themselves, I never know what to do with. Give them a heavy weapon and they need to stand still.Lascanons are great, but you waste the other 9 bolters firing at one tank. Is it worth it? Missile Launchers are pretty versentile, but not very powerful. It lets them take down vehicles if no better target presents itself. Would you favour it over lascans? Plasma cannons are pretty nice, and I favour heavy bolters over autocannons because of the extra shot. I've never seen a good use for multi-melta, although I've heard of tactics where you put them in a rhino, disembarking on the other side of the rhino and using it to block line of sight for a turn. I almost always put a plasma gun in a tactical squad that fields heavy weapon. How good really is puting a tactical squad with a flamer or a melta(I wish you could have both) in a drop pod or rhino, for some close ranged assault, barring the use of joining Independent Character. As for the Sergeant, I don't usually give him any special weapons, I might equip him with a chainsword if I send in a meltasquad. Is giving him a power sword at least a good investment?
Mostly I like using my tactical squads as stationary firebases, but I have seen some pretty good mechanised tactics, with full-rhino equiped tactical squads, to get into rapid fire range. Unsure about these also.

Scouts seems a bit iffy, I've yet to had any good experience with them. Snipers seem nice in theory, but hardly ever lives up to their name, with a 25% chance to score a wound, and around 10% chance to score a rending one. Mostly they seem only to serve as cannon fodder, or holding objectives. They're nice to have in 'hold' matches, but I rue them when I get kill point matches. Has anyone had any experience with shotgun/combat blade scouts in landspeeder storms?

Further thoughts: Are Vanguard Vets worth it, their heroic intervention being quite risky. Is it worth deepstriking Assault Marines? All my tactics with deepstriking assault infantry has been blast weapons to the face. Could ditching jetpacks and going for a free drop pod be anything?

As for Terminators, to me they seem sometimes too easy to kill. They will soak small arms fire, while they rain back stormbolters and missiles(or AC). Enough small arms fire will bring them to their knees, and there are plenty of AP2 weapons that will make you sadface. Assault Terminators with Thunder hammers are pretty neat, though I'm uncertain about deepstriking them, and a Land Raider is in my opinions too much points spent in one squad/vehicle.

How would you judge Marines antitank capacities? A recent favourite of mine are a squad of 10 devastators, 2 missile launchers, 1 lascannon and 1 plasma cannon. Then combat squad them into two, the lascanon geting the signum and hunts tanks, while the other is for infantry/versentility. How well does Predetors with 3 lascannons work, or dreadnaughts with lascanons or multimeltas?

Hope we can get a little discussion going about how to best use the Space marines forces!

Marines' strength in anti-tank lies not in their Heavy Support slots, but in their Fast Attack. Attack Bikes and Land Speeders with multi meltas are some of the most reliable anti-tank in the game for their points cost, and are one of the biggest strengths of the Marine list.

I've never thought of a list where Vanguard Vets were anything but a weakness.

Assault terminators with thunder hammers are just as vulnerable to small arms fire as shooty terminators are. Shooty terminators should be deep striked, assault terminators should be run in a land raider, unless you have another specific role for them to be played in your list.

What makes tactical squads most worthwhile is the Combat Squads rule. That way you don't have to have 9 short range marines with one long rage weapons, you split them up to be more effective at their given roles.

Deep Striking Landspeeders with multimeltas or Typhon Missile Launchers can be pretty nasty, right? Are they best to take as one or two alone, or have in squads of three?

Also, nothing wrong with Devastators or Predators for anti-tank, is there? Or are those best kept for anti-infantry? I've actually never tried out an autocannon/heavy bolter predator before, though seems vindicator does that job a lot better.

Lascannons suck at anti-tank in 5th ed, especially compared to multimeltas that you can get for much cheaper, without using valuable heavy slots.

For 85 points, I love the AC/HB pred. The vindicator makes your strategy much more predictable, because of its very short range, and also, it is easily neutralized by any immobilized/weapon destroyed results.

What change made lascannons suck / multimeltas better in 5th edition? I can't recall any change to the weapons actual rule...

There are very few times if I play under 2000p where I actually fill out all the slots, unless I'm taking something like 3 landspeeders or 3 unsquaded attack bikes.

Though I suppose 3 heavy slots could easily be filled with a cheap AC predator, Whirlwind and Thunderfire Cannon.

Good AT can be had by Droppodding dreads with multi-meltas or tac squads with meltas, especially using the Drop Pod Assault rule.

EDIT:

The vehicle damage charts have changed, meaning you (under most circumstances) can't destroy a vehicle with a glancing hit. However, a melta (being AP1) gets a +1 to the damage chart, so can destroy a vehicle on a glancing hit. A melta also gets a much better chance to penetrate up close, obviously, and is usually cheaper than a lacannon. That's the difference.

Whirlwinds seem to perform better in batteries of 2-3. Not a big fan of the thunderfire. AC/HB preds are great cheap dakka and AC/las isn't bad AT. With combat squads, Devs aren't bad- take 2 of 1 weapon and 2 of another and split into two weapon squads- it's like the old 6 man las/plas.

I wouldn't say las sucks as AT at all- but MM is better (though shorter range). Bikes and speeders are great, fast but fragile platforms for them. Podded MM/HF dreads are also great fun! Vulkan really makes this stuff shine.

Assault termies are also really mean with Shrike's fleet.

The reason you are having problems using the conversion beamer is because it sucks. Libs are very cool when gating your squads around or forcing daemons and assault terms to reroll invulns.

There are some great tactical articles you should read at the Bolter and Chainsword, including Warp Angels Killhammer principles.

I can't even begin to break down how many questions you have there, but I can say this: Codex: Space Marines is a very streamlined toolbox. Which tool you need, and in what strengths/combinations will depend on your regular enemies. Making an effective all-rounder list can be done in dozens of ways, considering the Marine unit tendancy to be capable of multiple roles.

For instance, the basic Assault Squad can be made a horde killer with Lightning Claws x 2 (or LC, Combi-Flamer), Flamer x 2. It can also be kitted out to deal with Monsterous Creatures, and the occational vehicle with Thunderhammer, Plasma Pistol x2. Both will always benifit greatly from attaching a Jump Chaplain, but in the latter configuration, you'll want to give him Melta Bombs.

I don't know if it's B&C or not, but I've seen at least a couple articles that tried to cover C:SM unit-by-unit.

I am not familiar with the Bolter & Chainsword website, could I ask for you to point me in the direction of these guides?

Giant Moth wrote:Deep Striking Landspeeders with multimeltas or Typhon Missile Launchers can be pretty nasty, right? Are they best to take as one or two alone, or have in squads of three?

Also, nothing wrong with Devastators or Predators for anti-tank, is there? Or are those best kept for anti-infantry? I've actually never tried out an autocannon/heavy bolter predator before, though seems vindicator does that job a lot better.

How is this good? When deepstriking vehicles, they count as moving at cruising speed. So no shooting the turn they drop.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:How is this good? When deepstriking vehicles, they count as moving at cruising speed. So no shooting the turn they drop.

Unless, of course, that vehicles happens to be Fast. Land speeders are Fast vehicles, so they'll be able to fire one main weapon apiece after deep striking.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=98

All the info here is strong.

keep in mind all (almost) units in a codex have a purpose. The effectiveness has more to do with the synergy of your army list then its effectiveness as a stand alone unit.

try to find a style of play you enjoy or a fluffy aspect to hold on to and then mathhammer or min/max the crap out of it and see what pops out

BTW i will be attempting a Vanguard counter assault unit in my next game which won't be for a while. I'll let people know how they do defending my devs

On the subject of Librarian powers, Null-zone is a must take in almost every circumstance. I really like avenger, but I run a Drop Pod army so it comes in far more useful than anything else.



My standard 10 man Tac squads are:

1 melta, 1 Combi-melta, 1 Multi-melta in a Drop pod

Or

1 Flamer, 1 Combi-flamer, 1 Missile Launcher in a drop pod

I split them in groups when not playing for KPs leaving the Heavy weapon and 4 bolters to guard the landing site (usually a capture point)





I have to agree with the others in saying LC are overpriced in 5th ed, MM will server you better in almost every case. (monolith being the exception)

I'm thinking of geting Land Speeders or two with a Typhon Missile Launcher and a heavy bolter. This seems like a very decent tankhunting weapon, especially since it has great range. The multimelta landspeeder seems nice, but it's going to be a one-shot weapon. Next turn, your enemy will kill you by turning any infantry squad on you(barring guardsmen without heavy weapons). I do not much one-shot things like drop poding multimelta dreads at first round or likewise. It seems rather unfluffy.

A bike-squad with combi-meltas or a multi-melta on the other hand... I'm thinking combine with a biker captain, and get a nice troop choice as well.

The Typhoon/Heavybolter combo is very, very strong.

Bikes with meltas are a great idea, especially now that they can all use the jet boost to get an invuln save, meaning that even LRs won't get the easy kill as you swoop in.

The trick for a MotF w/ conversion beam is to stick him on a bike. Now he can stay at long range so he can drop that s10 ap1 blat.

The big thing with stock SM is that SM will lose every time in assaults with a dedicated assualt and lose in shooting vs dedicated shooting units. But on the flip side they will tear up shooty units in assaualt and assault units in shooting. As long as you remember that you can have a good shot vs people.

willydstyle wrote:The Typhoon/Heavybolter combo is very, very strong.

Would you recomend deep strikes, outflank, or field at start?

Backno wrote:The trick for a MotF w/ conversion beam is to stick him on a bike. Now he can stay at long range so he can drop that s10 ap1 blat.

The big thing with stock SM is that SM will lose every time in assaults with a dedicated assualt and lose in shooting vs dedicated shooting units. But on the flip side they will tear up shooty units in assaualt and assault units in shooting. As long as you remember that you can have a good shot vs people.

That's why I like regular combat tactics a lot, you can make sure to withdraw with your space marines when the need arises. For example, I once ordered a tactical squad to autofail the morale check they recieved when a squad of Berzerks killed a few of them with a pistol salvo, making them fall back far enough to be out of charge range. The other combat tactics are pretty darn good too, but I really like the Ultramrines one.

RE: Deep strike, outflank, or on the table.

It depends on a few factors. Also, since only LS Storms can outflank, you can toss that out of your toolbox immediately.

Are you going first? Does your opponent have a high-priority target on the field that you need those 48" missiles to take out ASAP? Does your opponent have weapons that can reach your speeders? Generally, I think that typhoons are best to start on the table if you're going second, and putting into reserves if you're going first, because that way you have better range control. If your opponent has super-important vehicles with rear armor 10, consider deepstriking.

Very good posts here. A small addition about vanguard vets: A Locator Beacon makes them much less random.

And a general idea with marines, don't be afraid to improvise. The high stats and good save is pretty forgiving if you feel like charging something with your devastators.

here is a fun(ny) trick I pulled off:

Charged an ironclad dreadnought with the 9 guys I had left in a tac squad. It killed 3 marines over 2 rounds of combat. Then I auto failed the moral check so the melta gun in my other tac squad could run up and try to gib the ironclad. By losing 3 marines I preveted the squad eating an assault cannon, a missile launcher, a 50" conversion beam, AND protected the malta marine from getting charged/gibbed.

I recently tried a shrike army at a tourney and had quite a bit of sucess. I used shrike with a vanguard squad with a TH, 2PW, 1 Relic Blade and 3 SS. 2 people started completely in reserve, but due to the speed of the vanguard and the other 2 assault squads I was able to catch up to them when they came in. The third game shrikes squad charged a tac squad 1st turn and wiped 3 total tac squads before being taken down.

I also had 3 tac squads with meltas and lascannons and a podding sternguard squad in 1850. The fleet move is pretty solid and even helps tac combat squads while the lascannon half sits back.

The vanguard are expensive but with the SS they are pretty surviveable and if the opponent starts on the board they are almost always get a first turn charge.

Has anyone had any good experience with land speeder storm? It seems like a very sound tactical choice, being able to charge something relatively weak(like a thunderfire cannon, or lascannon team) on round 1. Equip with combat blade, and add a power weapon on the sergeant, and they can do some real damage!

I'm also curious what peoples thoughts are on Honour Guard. Overpriced and overglorified tactical marines, or worth it? And is it worth fielding a command squad with a captain, perhaps even puting them on bikes, or in a rhino? Sounds potentialy as annoying as nob bikers, except with only 1 wound.

Giant Moth wrote:Has anyone had any good experience with land speeder storm? It seems like a very sound tactical choice, being able to charge something relatively weak(like a thunderfire cannon, or lascannon team) on round 1. Equip with combat blade, and add a power weapon on the sergeant, and they can do some real damage!

I'm also curious what peoples thoughts are on Honour Guard. Overpriced and overglorified tactical marines, or worth it? And is it worth fielding a command squad with a captain, perhaps even puting them on bikes, or in a rhino? Sounds potentialy as annoying as nob bikers, except with only 1 wound.

Honor gaurd are exspensive marines that you can equip with lots of stuff to make a melee super-star unit.

Command squads are awesome because of how flexible they can be. Take a champion + the capt + storm bolters on the other vets = good assault/counter assault unit. Giving all 4 vets plasma guns and a razorback is pure awesome vs MEQ, and thanks to the apothacary you have a ~3% chance of your guy cooking himself.

Id like to see some good anti-imp guard tactics. I went up against a imp guard this past week in a regular 6000 point game, and his tanks (all 23 and 2 baneblades) ripped me to shreds. Is there a decent tactic out there for getting behind the iron curtain? The only point I started doing any real damage was when my landspeeders with MM got behind his lines, and I was able to take a few tanks down, but that was turn 3, and by then half my army was gone from the overkill of shots each turn. Terminators didnt do much better, as they could not deep strike anywhere near the tanks (It was shoulder to shoulder tanks on the damn field).

combatmedic wrote:Id like to see some good anti-imp guard tactics. I went up against a imp guard this past week in a regular 6000 point game, and his tanks (all 23 and 2 baneblades) ripped me to shreds. Is there a decent tactic out there for getting behind the iron curtain? The only point I started doing any real damage was when my landspeeders with MM got behind his lines, and I was able to take a few tanks down, but that was turn 3, and by then half my army was gone from the overkill of shots each turn. Terminators didnt do much better, as they could not deep strike anywhere near the tanks (It was shoulder to shoulder tanks on the damn field).

And this is why you shouldn't play 6000 points without using Apocalypse rules.

Marines suck now compared to the previous codex. You could spam assault cannons like nobody's business and the librarian was a god...

Two terminator command squads for a total of four assault cannons plus three elite squads of terminator for a plus total of six more assault cannons plus up to nine landspeeders with a plus total of nine more landspeeders... 19 assault cannons total. Now throw in the previous rendition of Captain Lysander with deep striking landspeeders when they could still shoot the turn they arrived from reserve. That was about as sick as you could get for Marines and no Marine army today could hold a match stick to that. So why even bother now when it comes to vanilla Marines?

G

There has been some nice bonuses to the current edition: like storm shields. Yay invulnerable saves!

combatmedic wrote:Id like to see some good anti-imp guard tactics. I went up against a imp guard this past week in a regular 6000 point game, and his tanks (all 23 and 2 baneblades) ripped me to shreds. Is there a decent tactic out there for getting behind the iron curtain? The only point I started doing any real damage was when my landspeeders with MM got behind his lines, and I was able to take a few tanks down, but that was turn 3, and by then half my army was gone from the overkill of shots each turn. Terminators didnt do much better, as they could not deep strike anywhere near the tanks (It was shoulder to shoulder tanks on the damn field).

Thats your problem right there. The rules for basic 40K cap out at 3k...and even at that point with some armies it just gets absurd.