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Green Blow Fly wrote:Marines suck now compared to the previous codex. You could spam assault cannons like nobody's business and the librarian was a god...

Two terminator command squads for a total of four assault cannons plus three elite squads of terminator for a plus total of six more assault cannons plus up to nine landspeeders with a plus total of nine more landspeeders... 19 assault cannons total. Now throw in the previous rendition of Captain Lysander with deep striking landspeeders when they could still shoot the turn they arrived from reserve. That was about as sick as you could get for Marines and no Marine army today could hold a match stick to that. So why even bother now when it comes to vanilla Marines?

G

Say what? Landspeeders can still fire the turn they arrive from reserve. The rules state that vehicles arriving from reserve is moving at cruising speed. Fast vehicles can fire 1 weapon when moving at cruising speed(12" or under).

Some of the more cheesy combinations have been removed, yes. Some have been buffed, like terminators with their new storm shields, and the rules for the Typhon and Cyclone missile launcher has also been improved. The regular marines are also better, with the new and improved ATSKNF. Some of the chaptert tactics you can get is very handy(regular) to outright sick(Salamander).

Giant Moth wrote: The regular marines are also better, with the new and improved ATSKNF. Some of the chaptert tactics you can get is very handy(regular) to outright sick(Salamander).

How is ATSKNF better? It seems like it's the same to me.

I think personally peoplearestill in a 4th edition mindset when it applies to marines

Marines can do lots of things, but are never the best at any of it. They allow you to build an army that does what you want. There is nothing wrong going with a themed army, but from what I'm seeing there are only a couple highly competitive tournament builds at 1500-2000 points. However I'll give an explanation of some things you can do with a codex.

Want an entire first turn assault based army? Get shrike with Vanguard and then infiltrate 6 units of hand to hand scouts. Of course if you draw turn 2 you'll be in for a fight.

You can run an entire army on bikes, but then that limits you to 3+ saves & reduces model count.

You can go with a gunline with a master of the forge & all ranged weapons (if only there was a way to get 6 predators in one list, or even 3 thunderfires & three predators.), but guard can outgun you.

Things like allied mystics, master of the fleet, and even good ol kill points makes a full drop poding army less viable.

Duel Lash, Psychic Choir, & guided war walkers make an entire footslogging army cry.

So how do you create the most competitive lists in space marines? Here is how:

1. Mechanize everything you can. In general everything should have a transport. If you don't Lash & the Choir will make life very hard. This also means that camo scout squads might not be as effective as they once were.

2. Make sure you have a librarian in your force with null zone. A chance to stop psychic powers? YES PLEASE! Making an enemy reroll invu saves? YES PLEASE! I love watching a jet bike seer council fail to get fortuned and then get assaulted by assault terminators.

3. Melta is your friend! The more games I play the more I'm convinced that the multi melta is the best weapon for space marines. That being said, drop poding sternguard with combi meltas aren’t a bad option either. Where else will you get AP1 with 2d6 armor penetration once you are close? AP1 means your chances of destroying a vehicle just went from 33% to 50% on a pen and from 0% to 16% on a glance! With a multi melta you need to be within 12 inches. Every easy to do with Attack Bikes, land Speeders, and even Land raider Crusaders/Redeemers.

4. Tac Squads are expensive. At 205 min for a fully functional tac squad (mounted in a rhino with weapons options) you can't really afford to have too many in your force. Combat squading helps this. Remember that a 5 man combat squad in a land raider can hold an objective just as well as a 10 man squad. I almost never run more then 2 full tac squads in anything less then 2000 points. I have never yet run out of scoring units needed to win a game doing this. If you are afraid a tac squad will get killed early then you can leave it in reserve, if you build your list correctly those 8 extra bolter shots won't be needed.

5. You need some range & you need some HTH. Tac squads (in a rhino) with a plasma cannon or lascanon can kill things at range. Thunderfires can kill things at range. Predators can kill things at range. Vindicators took a hit with no longer being able to get POTMS but can still be effective. Orbital bombardment can kill LOTS of things at range. However you also need something that can hold their own in assault. Dreadnoughts & Assault terminators (with storm shields) tend to be the best at this.

6. Land raiders are a must. If you are playing 1500+ points you should be fielding at least one land raider variant. The regular land raiders work best when loaded with a scoring unit and can sit back and open fire across the field. The Crusader and Redeemer work best when you put your Hand to Hand unit inside and rush it towards the lines. Extra armor is almost a must have for these. Once it has dropped off it's cargo it can keep fighting and maybe even pick up a unit to make it scoring (from a late turn drop poded tac squad, outflanking scout squad, or rhino that had been following).

7. Synergy. I've always loved the phrase from Transformers The Movie: "First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside!" You use your Melta/Demolisher/Lascannon to open up the transports then you have you HTH unit assault it or your long range dakka (preds/Thunderfire) open fire.

Pedro allows you to take highly effective sternguard who can score and helps everything around him in assault. That plus the Orbital bombardment is a pretty good deal for 175.

Vulkan means that your meltas got that much better, plus he & assault terminators make one hell of a HTH unit. Oh and now you can twin link flamers & heavy flamer s for more anti horde stuff.

Hope that helps!

Hollismason wrote:I think personally peoplearestill in a 4th edition mindset when it applies to marines

I had a break from miniatures during the years that 4th edition existed. I played a lot during 1st to 3rd, and have started again this winter, so I havn't really read either the 4th ed marine codex or rulebook. Do you think you could enlighten me to how marines were supposed to be played then, and how that changed with 5th edition? I have gathered that the 4th ed ability to assault out of all sorts of transports and that sweeping advances could bring you into another assault gave rise to the Rhino Rush army, but apart from that I don't know much.

asugradinwa wrote:Marines can do lots of things, but are never the best at any of it. They allow you to build an army that does what you want. There is nothing wrong going with a themed army, but from what I'm seeing there are only a couple highly competitive tournament builds at 1500-2000 points. However I'll give an explanation of some things you can do with a codex.

Want an entire first turn assault based army? Get shrike with Vanguard and then infiltrate 6 units of hand to hand scouts. Of course if you draw turn 2 you'll be in for a fight.

You can run an entire army on bikes, but then that limits you to 3+ saves & reduces model count.

You can go with a gunline with a master of the forge & all ranged weapons (if only there was a way to get 6 predators in one list, or even 3 thunderfires & three predators.), but guard can outgun you.

Things like allied mystics, master of the fleet, and even good ol kill points makes a full drop poding army less viable.

Duel Lash, Psychic Choir, & guided war walkers make an entire footslogging army cry.

So how do you create the most competitive lists in space marines? Here is how:

1. Mechanize everything you can. In general everything should have a transport. If you don't Lash & the Choir will make life very hard. This also means that camo scout squads might not be as effective as they once were.

2. Make sure you have a librarian in your force with null zone. A chance to stop psychic powers? YES PLEASE! Making an enemy reroll invu saves? YES PLEASE! I love watching a jet bike seer council fail to get fortuned and then get assaulted by assault terminators.

3. Melta is your friend! The more games I play the more I'm convinced that the multi melta is the best weapon for space marines. That being said, drop poding sternguard with combi meltas aren’t a bad option either. Where else will you get AP1 with 2d6 armor penetration once you are close? AP1 means your chances of destroying a vehicle just went from 33% to 50% on a pen and from 0% to 16% on a glance! With a multi melta you need to be within 12 inches. Every easy to do with Attack Bikes, land Speeders, and even Land raider Crusaders/Redeemers.

4. Tac Squads are expensive. At 205 min for a fully functional tac squad (mounted in a rhino with weapons options) you can't really afford to have too many in your force. Combat squading helps this. Remember that a 5 man combat squad in a land raider can hold an objective just as well as a 10 man squad. I almost never run more then 2 full tac squads in anything less then 2000 points. I have never yet run out of scoring units needed to win a game doing this. If you are afraid a tac squad will get killed early then you can leave it in reserve, if you build your list correctly those 8 extra bolter shots won't be needed.

5. You need some range & you need some HTH. Tac squads (in a rhino) with a plasma cannon or lascanon can kill things at range. Thunderfires can kill things at range. Predators can kill things at range. Vindicators took a hit with no longer being able to get POTMS but can still be effective. Orbital bombardment can kill LOTS of things at range. However you also need something that can hold their own in assault. Dreadnoughts & Assault terminators (with storm shields) tend to be the best at this.

6. Land raiders are a must. If you are playing 1500+ points you should be fielding at least one land raider variant. The regular land raiders work best when loaded with a scoring unit and can sit back and open fire across the field. The Crusader and Redeemer work best when you put your Hand to Hand unit inside and rush it towards the lines. Extra armor is almost a must have for these. Once it has dropped off it's cargo it can keep fighting and maybe even pick up a unit to make it scoring (from a late turn drop poded tac squad, outflanking scout squad, or rhino that had been following).

7. Synergy. I've always loved the phrase from Transformers The Movie: "First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside!" You use your Melta/Demolisher/Lascannon to open up the transports then you have you HTH unit assault it or your long range dakka (preds/Thunderfire) open fire.

Pedro allows you to take highly effective sternguard who can score and helps everything around him in assault. That plus the Orbital bombardment is a pretty good deal for 175.

Vulkan means that your meltas got that much better, plus he & assault terminators make one hell of a HTH unit. Oh and now you can twin link flamers & heavy flamer s for more anti horde stuff.

Hope that helps!

I think you have a lot of good points in there...not sure I agree with all the MUSTS you have listed but a lot of good advice there. Assault Terminators are the only MUST have in my book, and if you play Kayvaan then you will know the joy of the fleeting Terminator...and oh what a joy it is!!

Ealier there was a question about land speeder storms. I actually used to use them but haven't for a while. However after playing a few games against a very good Space Marine Player I've decided to copy one of his ideas and try out a storm with a 5 man combat blade/Powerfist/Combi Melta scout squad.

1st turn scout means it can get within 12 inches, with the storm or outflank if you are going 2nd.

The squad jumps out and can melta or assault. Usually my land speeder storms have heavy flamers but I might as well try a multimelta (that and I had 5 points leftover when I created a 2000 point army)

I find that pairing a sniper squad w/ camo cloaks ad a TF in the same ruin works pretty well. Because of bolster defense, the TF gets a 3+ cover save and the scouts get a 2+ cover save. Also the sniper squad can pick off any leftover models after the TF fires or it can weaken a unit getting close to you. Also add in a whirlwind to the mix and you have an awesome combo.




-Orkishly

asugradinwa wrote:

4. Tac Squads are expensive. At 205 min for a fully functional tac squad (mounted in a rhino with weapons options) you can't really afford to have too many in your force. Combat squading helps this. Remember that a 5 man combat squad in a land raider can hold an objective just as well as a 10 man squad. I almost never run more then 2 full tac squads in anything less then 2000 points. I have never yet run out of scoring units needed to win a game doing this. If you are afraid a tac squad will get killed early then you can leave it in reserve, if you build your list correctly those 8 extra bolter shots won't be needed.

I agree that the Tactical squads are expensive. I think a 2,000+ point army should have 4. Tacticals are so versatile now, having 8 scoring units plus 4 semi-scoring units is worth the 800-1000 points. ESPECIALLY with a good character like Vulkan, or Marneus. I aslo never leave home without Razorbacks. The extra heavy weapon is worth the decrease in transport capacity. I don't play in tournaments anymore, so the calibre of my opponents isn't on the razor edge of WAAC play. YMMV during competative play.

Marines can actually lay down a mobile list where everything can dual purpose. Dreads with multi-melta and heavy flamer, speeders with same load out, land raiders with tac squads in em.

I really don't like "powerunit" lists, you give the opponent an instant focus and justify him for focus firing it, once it's gone you don't have much left. Whereas if you have spammed multipurpose killing and have your scoring units inside av14 then he's facing threats in every element. He has to kill it all to feel safe, if he focuses on one element the other elements paste him.

Drop pod armies? Meh, good to shake things up but really suck if they are denied there "shock and awe" turn and people will twig on about that.

Leotilt wrote:Marines can actually lay down a mobile list where everything can dual purpose. Dreads with multi-melta and heavy flamer, speeders with same load out, land raiders with tac squads in em.

I really don't like "powerunit" lists, you give the opponent an instant focus and justify him for focus firing it, once it's gone you don't have much left. Whereas if you have spammed multipurpose killing and have your scoring units inside av14 then he's facing threats in every element. He has to kill it all to feel safe, if he focuses on one element the other elements paste him.

Drop pod armies? Meh, good to shake things up but really suck if they are denied there "shock and awe" turn and people will twig on about that.

I agree with your assesment there really. I've never much liked Land Raiders, mostly because they are big targets everyone wants to kill, and loading them with assault terminators will give your enemy an instant focus. Also, transporting 12" every round is a massive waste of its fantastic weaponry.

To my experience, Space Marines ill affords to have high priority targets in your list. Ok, so you deepstrike assault terminators with storm shields, but then there better be something else that can threaten him if he choses to focus his fire on the terminators. Like a bunch of razorbacks or rhinos rolling constantly closer...! Otherwise those 5 or 6 terminators are going to feel the blunt end of massive charge or rapid-fire hell!

Those big targets that everyone wants to kill soak up a lot of damage. Lascannons only get through on a 5 or 6, If there is fast moving melta I have smoke launchers and most MC's can't hit a speeding land raider on a 6.

Very rarely do I lose my land raider before it drops off Vulkan & the assault terminators. However, I WANT people shooting at my Land Raider. When an enemy is shooting lascannons & missiles at my landraider he is not shooting at everything else in my army.