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Just out of curiosity, has there been any rethink on our condemnation of grenade launchers for guardsmen based on their three point reduction in cost with the new codex? I just noticed that, but haven't used them enough to know if they're even worth five points.

Well, personally I'm thinking seriously about using them. Which I've never really done before.

I don't see them replacing plasma guns. But I think they're much more competitive than they ever have been before. I'm probably going to try and limit my plasma weaponry to BS 4 squads with multiple assault weapon slots. That way, I can try to use the "Bring it Down!" order to (hopefully) prevent meltdowns.

A BS 4 plasma gun that is twin-liked most of the time is clearly worth 15 points. :-)

Yeah, the bring it down order will be a nice addition. I play nids quite a bit, typically carnifex heavy nids at that.

raithianellis wrote:Just out of curiosity, has there been any rethink on our condemnation of grenade launchers for guardsmen based on their three point reduction in cost with the new codex? I just noticed that, but haven't used them enough to know if they're even worth five points.

Yes. They didn't just go down 3 points, they went from 2 pts cheaper than a plasma (not worth the downgrade) to 10pts cheaper than a plasma gun (worth thinking about the downgrade). They're the same price as flamers, but will be able to shoot most of the game. Meltas are still too short range to be a real pick in line squads, and the price bump to plasmas make their status as the no-brainer best choice far less secure. In the old book, line squads generally saw two specials: flamers for cheap, plasma for shooting. Now that plasma is 10pts more than grenade launchers, and autocannons are the same cost as heavy bolters, an AC/GL squad is the same cost as a HB/F squad and 10pts less than an AC/PG squad. 10pts isn't a lot, but over 4 squads is a healthy bump. I personally think that Plasma will still have a home in my line squads, as something needs to deal with 2+ saves, but I'm guessing the old days of IG forces being 1/3 HB/f and 2/3 LC/PG will be replaced by a half and half mix of AC/gl and LC/PG, with Melta toting veterans and vendettas picking up some of the anti-tank slack, valks and chimeras picking up the anti-horde slack, and more abundant tanks taking care of MEQs. AC/Plas will still appear, as the plasma has good synergy with the AC, but it's spendier. If you're taking 4 infantry squads, why not splurge, but in lists with more grunts, the savings add up.

This is all theory hammer, of course, but the Grenade Launcher is certainly not the hilariously bad choice it was before.

Am I alone in thinking that there are only two top choices for heavy (AC and LC) and two for specials (PG and GL) for infantry squads? I'm basing most of this analysis on the idea that HBs and MLs suffer for being the same price or more expensive than ACs and not nearly as good as an LC. Of course, I'm increasingly thinking that even the LC isn't that good anymore. I think top lists will include 4 AC/GL infantry squads, and take their anti-tank elsewhere....

I use missile launchers, but I seem to be the only one. They work well for me, and they did when I started playing guard, so I've just kept them. I know the drawbacks to 'em, but I still like them. I like that in a pinch against a horde I can put out one more small blast template.

I played a couple of test games today, and I think that Grenade Launchers, at 5 points a pop, definitely have a place.

Im thinking of throwing a bunch into chimera and run them around shooting anything that comes close to gun line, or
get a back armor shot with krak grenade.

Polonius wrote:Am I alone in thinking that there are only two top choices for heavy (AC and LC) and two for specials (PG and GL) for infantry squads? I'm basing most of this analysis on the idea that HBs and MLs suffer for being the same price or more expensive than ACs and not nearly as good as an LC. Of course, I'm increasingly thinking that even the LC isn't that good anymore. I think top lists will include 4 AC/GL infantry squads, and take their anti-tank elsewhere....

You're not alone. As far as I'm concerned, GW has removed Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters from squads. The math weighs so clearly in favor of autocannons and lascannons that you would be foolish to take anything else.

The math is less clear with assault weapons, but unless you're putting squads in transports, I think you don't really need flamers or melta guns.

raithianellis wrote:I use missile launchers, but I seem to be the only one. They work well for me, and they did when I started playing guard, so I've just kept them. I know the drawbacks to 'em, but I still like them. I like that in a pinch against a horde I can put out one more small blast template.

I hear you. In 3rd and 4th, I ran my command squads with missile launcher and double plasma, a pattern nobody else ever used. The problem now is that the LC is only 5pts more, and is better in every way against big things, and the AC is five points cheaper and is better in every way against light vehicles and arguably equal against hordes. The way I see it, the ML charges you for versatility in a list that can afford to take enough heavy weapons to not need it.

Don't get me wrong, MLs aren't as bad now as say, GLs were in 4th. They're just a mediocre options from a pure power perspective. Seeing as how I own 9 Praetorian Missile launcher teams, 4 tallarn mL teams, and five catachan teams, that makes me sad...

Dave47 wrote:

Polonius wrote:Am I alone in thinking that there are only two top choices for heavy (AC and LC) and two for specials (PG and GL) for infantry squads? I'm basing most of this analysis on the idea that HBs and MLs suffer for being the same price or more expensive than ACs and not nearly as good as an LC. Of course, I'm increasingly thinking that even the LC isn't that good anymore. I think top lists will include 4 AC/GL infantry squads, and take their anti-tank elsewhere....

You're not alone. As far as I'm concerned, GW has removed Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters from squads. The math weighs so clearly in favor of autocannons and lascannons that you would be foolish to take anything else.

The math is less clear with assault weapons, but unless you're putting squads in transports, I think you don't really need flamers or melta guns.

I think the problem with the assualt weapons is that there are too many good places to buy them that aren't platoon squads. 70pts Veteran squads can take three meltas and a chimera for 155pts total. PCS with quad flamer are 50pts. Even special weapon squads are better suited for, you know, special weapons. I really think that only GLs and Plasmas help line squads stand and shoot.

Polonius wrote:Don't get me wrong, MLs aren't as bad now as say, GLs were in 4th. They're just a mediocre options from a pure power perspective. Seeing as how I own 9 Praetorian Missile launcher teams, 4 tallarn mL teams, and five catachan teams, that makes me sad...

I took an inventory recently. If you count Necromunda figures and Last Chancers and such, I own 11 heavy bolters and 9 missile launchers.

I own three autocannons.

I'm obviously in the market for some new heavy weapons.... Anyone got a bunch of old metal Cadians with autocannons? :-)

Dave47 wrote:

Polonius wrote:Don't get me wrong, MLs aren't as bad now as say, GLs were in 4th. They're just a mediocre options from a pure power perspective. Seeing as how I own 9 Praetorian Missile launcher teams, 4 tallarn mL teams, and five catachan teams, that makes me sad...

I took an inventory recently. If you count Necromunda figures and Last Chancers and such, I own 11 heavy bolters and 9 missile launchers.

I own three autocannons.

I'm obviously in the market for some new heavy weapons.... Anyone got a bunch of old metal Cadians with autocannons? :-)

I bit the bullet and bought three old catachan ACs yesterday, used, for $24. I have some old metal Cats I'm using as vets with my Praetorians. Luckily, I have 5 Praetorian ACs, which will be enough for my line squads, but I still don't have a lot of breathing space.

Keep in mind the grenade launcher got better by default in fifth as well. It's not longer a half chance to miss on the frag. The krak is also reasonable against light armor (and now in fifth there are a lot more rhinos kicking around). It's a tiny missile launcher but without the laughable points comparison to better more specialized weapons.

I personally like it as a line weapon.

ShumaGorath wrote:Keep in mind the grenade launcher got better by default in fifth as well. It's not longer a half chance to miss on the frag. The krak is also reasonable against light armor (and now in fifth there are a lot more rhinos kicking around). It's a tiny missile launcher but without the laughable points comparison to better more specialized weapons.

I personally like it as a line weapon.

The frag option is a nice side line. I imagine it won't actually accomplish much, but with it's new AP6 it can scythe through guants and ork boys now....

Polonius wrote:I imagine it won't actually accomplish much, but with it's new AP6 it can scythe through guants and ork boys now....

"New?" It's been this way since the BBB in 3rd Ed. :-P

But I'll agree that the frag grenade has never been more useful than it is now.

Tell my storm guardians that frag grenades suck...

Dave47 wrote:

Polonius wrote:I imagine it won't actually accomplish much, but with it's new AP6 it can scythe through guants and ork boys now....

"New?" It's been this way since the BBB in 3rd Ed. :-P

But I'll agree that the frag grenade has never been more useful than it is now.

I'll be darned, you are correct sir.

"The Grenade Launcher: slightly less crappy than you though since 1998."

There is really no reason to ever take Missiles or HB :(

Flamers in line squads are also no the best spot, better off in a PCS.
Meltaguns, against, still better off in a PCS/Vets.

Now here is the biggy. Lascannon. Does it still have a place in a line squads? Vets?

Personally, I am thinking, between Vendettas and melta squads, we can be covered in the anti tank department and actually have no need for infantry based lascannons.

Then that basically means our Infantry is either AC/GL or AC/PG.

Personally, I am somewhat leaning to AC/Plasma at this point, and perhaps sticking GL in PCS (or flamers), Vets/CCS will be taking either meltas or plasma.



PS. As for the "frag", don't underestimate it. If there enemy unit is not spread out, you can score a good number of hits with it. In fact, against MEQ if you can score 1.5 hits (i know you can't get a 1/2 a hit) with a frag, then you have a better chance of killing a MEQ and if you fired krak.

BoxANT wrote:There is really no reason to ever take Missiles or HB :(

No, there is not.

Flamers in line squads are also no the best spot, better off in a PCS.
Meltaguns, against, still better off in a PCS/Vets.

I totally agree.

Now here is the biggy. Lascannon. Does it still have a place in a line squads? Vets?

Maybe. Lascannons are still better against AV13 and 14, and slightly better against AV12 (more penetrating hits) when compared to the AC.

Personally, I am thinking, between Vendettas and melta squads, we can be covered in the anti tank department and actually have no need for infantry based lascannons.

Well, it depends on how much infantry you're bringing. If you're rocking three vendettas, each with a triple melta veteran squad, and 6 battle tanks, you're probably only going to take one or two platoons. At that point, AC/GL gives you beef for cheap.

If not, than line lascannons and plasma guns give you the fire power you need against terminators, Monstrous creatures, etc.

Then that basically means our Infantry is either AC/GL or AC/PG.

Personally, I am somewhat leaning to AC/Plasma at this point, and perhaps sticking GL in PCS (or flamers), Vets/CCS will be taking either meltas or plasma.

I think the ratio will be a matter of taste, but I agree on the options, although I still think las/plas will appear in infantry heavy lists.

I still like the idea of frag ML due to IG's low BS

I agree with HB though, AC is better in every single way, the 1 less shot is made up for by longer range

LunaHound wrote:
I still like the idea of frag ML due to IG's low BS

I agree with HB though, AC is better in every single way, the 1 less shot is made up for by longer range

I'm not trying to pick on you, but a nearly guaranteed hit with a lousy weapon is roughly as good as a lousy chance to hit with a nearly guaranteed wound, right? The autocannon lays an average of 5/6 a wound per turn on T4. You would need to hit two models nearly every time to match that. Probably not hard, but scatter can result in no hits.

Oh no worries , i know you arnt picking on me xD
active player's input are greatly appreciated because i dont play warhammer anymore
However, i do assemble my minis based on what players commonly use.

(also missle launcher bits dont require the tripods ac/ lc / hb use , so im free to glue a bunch of them on )
bad it saddens me to hear they arnt effective :x

Krak missiles got worse in 5ed, since they can't pen AV14, they can't kill AV14. In addition, since Lascannons are now only 5 pts more expensive, they're far superior in anti tank.

Frag Missiles got better in 5ed, since they don't get partials anymore and don't roll to hit (good for BS3), however, a Mortar is 10 points cheaper than a Missile. In addition, the Mortar can be fired indirect and causing pinning.


Missile Launcher is a poor replacement for a lascannon, and a far overprice (inferior) mortar :(

Since GW dropped the Lascannon, Autocannon, and mortar 5 points, and kept the Missile the same, they really took away any benefit of taking them.

So nobody is going to say mortar/gl. I'm looking at that combo for my squads that sit inside chimera's all game for my mech list.

Really it's just so that the squad camped out in the vehicle feels like it's contributing towards the battle. Plus once you get to the objective and feel like cowering behind the wreck of your chimera you can lob mortar shells around.

Mortars are nice for the ability to hold an objective behind a building or tank, yet still manage to utilize the squads firepower. They are in my mind one of the best mycorner objective holders in the game. Cheap, easy to hide, semi killy. Utterly disposable for the cost. They may not be particularly hard to kill, but given the structure of a guard line they are quite easy to keep safe, and unlike things like plaguemarines they are a cool 60 points.

the problem with mortars is that if you like mortars, and you just need a squad to hold an objective, why not take three mortar teams for 60pts? Yes, it's more fragile, but if it's genuinely hiding out of line of sight, who cares?

Polonius wrote:the problem with mortars is that if you like mortars, and you just need a squad to hold an objective, why not take three mortar teams for 60pts? Yes, it's more fragile, but if it's genuinely hiding out of line of sight, who cares?

Oh, I misread his post. My point was that mortar heavy teams are the great holding units. Mortars on line squads are somewhat meh, cheap but they lose their greatest advantage, the safety of being able to shoot over intervening terrain.

Yeah, I just plain old don't like mortars in line squads. It's better than not taking a heavy at all, but for 5 more points you can take an autocannon, which is a reasonably good weapon.

The missle launcher squads are good they are 15pts cheaper then a lascannon squad and has versatility. Missle launchers eat up guard and eldar players wounding on threes and easy to hit. We have melta squads and vendettas for heavy tanks, missle launchers instant death things on bikes, while at the same time being a threat against hordes. 15 points may not seem like alot but that changes your vet squad with meltas into a squad with plasma guns.

CKO wrote:The missle launcher squads are good they are 15pts cheaper then a lascannon squad and has versatility. Missle launchers eat up guard and eldar players wounding on threes and easy to hit. We have melta squads and vendettas for heavy tanks, missle launchers instant death things on bikes, while at the same time being a threat against hordes. 15 points may not seem like alot but that changes your vet squad with meltas into a squad with plasma guns.

In an IG list, there is no reason to pay a premium for versatility. In no list is it wise to pay for versatility, but it's even more apparent for IG. The same 15 pts that you hold as valuable is the premium for MLs over Autocannons. MLs aren't bad, they're just a compromise choice that's a distant third to the AC and LC.