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In respects to comments on the Lascannon:
   With orders, can't lascannons be effectively Str:10 for the purposes of armor penetration?
   48 inch Str:10 would be the 2nd best anti-tank gun in the game.
   That's pretty burly for a line gun.
In respects to comments on the Grenade Launcher:
   Absolutely worth it.

2 ML HWS costs the same as a AC HWS and a LC HWS.

IMO you are better off with a LC to shoot at heavy armor and a AC to shoot at light armor.


It's the same with infantry squads, 2 ML cost the same as an AC and LC.


If you're looking for a squad to sit inside a chimera, AC/GL is a solid choice.

I agree with boxant about the chimera option. I've used grenade launchers for a long time with my tiny guard squad and they've proved very useful in micro games. With 5th template rules it's a lot more effective for me at least.

So what about vet squads? With a BS4 I am still tempted to use the 15 point plasma guns in my planned all vet mech army -- a unit that can put out 5 S7 shots at 24" and 8 at 12" is mighty tempting. Then again the points saved from taking GLs and using Russes for AP2 is also noted. I dunno I am on the fence.

You know what's funny? In all this discussion of IG assault weapon options, we forgot the sniper rifle.

....Or did we?????

Dave47 wrote:You know what's funny? In all this discussion of IG assault weapon options, we forgot the sniper rifle.

....Or did we?????

In an army running 2 or 3 psychic choirs, replacing GLs with sniper rifles might not be awful, as the pinning would hep to slow down the... No, I can't do it.

Sniper rifles suck in line squads. Take ratlings if you want 'em.

Or maybe platoon command squads.

4 Sniper Rifles
2 Hits
1 Wound

Pretty meh, but it's cheap.

I agree that it's a half hearted shoulder shrug at best. Besides, ratings have better cover saves and are more accurate. Leave sniping to the snipers...

I have always liked GL's. And I will continue to like GL's. And paired up with AC in regular squads is a good choice, being able to deal with med to light armour and infantry as well. It also helps when made massive squads. They complement each other well, and they are totally worth their points now.

so did the flamer get demoted to PCS/SWS only now?
i feel okay with the idea putting the AC/GL in instead of the HB/flamer line squad.
and they HB has no role at all any more?

ML's have no place anymore? :O


bs
i'd take them over las or auto anytime.
i rather have points spent on a unit that can hunt tanks and troops rather than one dedicated to a single duty.

Horray for GLs!!! I own 10 of those blasted devices and I'm soo relieved they serve a purpose now.
I've always used them in my line squads along with MLs for the two firing options.
Bummer about MLs (love my shoulder firing conversions) but I'll live.

Would GLs have any use in SWS though?

I have really, really tried to get myself to come around on grenade launchers, but I just can't. They stink. Paying 5 points to get nothing is still a bad deal. Which is a shame, since I own half a dozen of the suckers in my Steel Legion army.

Now, maybe army list colors my perception, because Chimeras kill the same things as Grenade Launchers, rendering the old GL redundant. And maybe the fact that I only have 7 or 8 infantry units in my army means that I don't feel the points sting for buying Plasma guns, since I'm only buying 4 of them, rather than a dozen. And maybe the overall lack of AP2 in my army makes me appreciate the Plasma gun more than I should, while the mechanized nature of my list lets me get more use out of my converted Flamers than most guard can.

But I can't get the image thats runs through my head on a infinite loop of a Grenade Launcher firing, and doing nothing. While in contrast, Plasma guns kill a couple of enemy models a game and can actually kill valuable models. Normal scenario for a Grenade Launcher - it fires, and maybe kills an Ork or a Tyranid worth 6 points. Normal scenario for a Plasma gun - it fires, and kills a Space Marine worth 16 to 40 points.

Those 10 extra points for the Plasma gun are well worth it since it can threaten a much wider range of targets worth a much greater amount of points. I mean, let's say you equip your army with Grenade Launchers instead of Plasma guns. Congrats, you've saved some points and can afford one extra infantry squad. But now your infantry squads have lost about half their effective killing power when facing Space Marines, Necrons, big Tyranids, etc. That doesn't sound very economical to me.

Utility versus opportunity cost. You see the Grenade Launcher as a poor buy because it can't kill the things that a plasma gun can. However, the grenade launcher is good at killing more of the things a plasma gun is generally considered 'overkill' for, like a bunch of Orks or hormagaunts. A frag blast is only going to wound 1/3 of the models it hits, but it can hit 4-5 at a time. That frees up the points to spend elsewhere on something really, really good at killing Marines/Terminators, like upgrading your Leman Russ to a Leman Russ Plasma Executioner or throwing plasma sponsons on your Demolisher.

It's not just 'what can x do that y can't?', you also have to consider 'if I take y instead of x, can I then buy z which is actually better than x?'.