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AYYYY!!

Whats happening!!


ok seriously i want to pick the brains of some players out there.

heres my problem my lootas (i use 12-15) have been TERRIBLE for me.

in the two tourneys (and just pick up games) i have played them in one of three things have happened:
A- They get blown to bits early
B- they take a few casualties and make a beeline for the table edge early
C- they fail to do any dmg, and then either A or B happens

i have tried using them in cover and with gretchin screens


their randomness is what draws me off for the most part.
i play a foot slogging army that basically consist of

2 meks- KFFs
lootas
gretchin
80 boys
6 kans
dread
BW
kokmmandos w/ snikk

and the lootas dont even seem to fit in with the rest of the army, trying to hang back and shoot stuff (very ineffectively for me)

basically the games i have lost were because of the lootas poor performance. other things need to change (like the BW) but i believe a large chunk of the blame is on them.


now come the stormboys, given the style of army that im playing does it seem like a better option to go with something more like this:

warboss-bike
mek-kff
80 boys
6 kans
1 dread
40 stormboyz

running it through my head i seem to think so just looking for some feed back from the best guys and gals i know!!!

my understanding of the Ork rules is that they naturally cater far, far better towards a CC army than a shooty army. I'm about to start playing Orks myself, and I'm not really going to emphasize shooting at all...I like your idea of the stormboyz over the Lootas (though I'm not sure why you got rid of the gretchin). Anyway, as I said, I by no means have any experience playing Orks, but it sounds good to me.

Bad luck is bad luck, and sometimes that's all. That said, if you are losing a game because your 12-15 lootas didn't perform that well, I would suspect there are other things at work.
Were the lootas in the Battlewagon with a KFF mek in as well? That way they're a lot tougher to kill, have mobility, all of them can shoot out since it's open topped,
and the KFF is measured from the battlewagon's hull rather then from just the mek's base.

Orks *can* do quite well in ranged but only if they focus on it. It looks like you need some more CC firepower for what your army is leaning towards. If anything in your army gets charged by 10 khorne berzerkers with a power fist,
you're in trouble. An equipped Nob Squad can still do well at that point, though obviously you want to be the one charging.

Lootas are some great ranged support, and for an ork if they took a lot of fire instead of de ladz slogging towards CC then they've done a good job.

That sounds like a lot of bad luck. My lootaz have always performed well. Maybe try taking two squads of them see what happens. Just keep in mind you will get some rolls of 1 for shots do not let it get your down.

Storm Boyz though are really fun, but I think Lootaz are a better winning unit overall. They are the best light tank killer I know of.

well the gretchin have also been failsauce for me, they can be used as cover but i have a KFF for that


i have tried using them an objective babysitters but thier low LD and terribad stats for me anyways they arent worth their points even as cheap as they are

I agree that Lootas are a better choice then Stormboyz in a general sense but for this foot slogging army I like the Stormboyz better, I would try and get a Stormboy unit with Zagtruk, use the Battlewagon rolla tactic to chew on enemies, unload some foot sloggers, then Ambush with Snikrot and DS with Zagtruk and you can get some good pin point CC or go for the rear armor on some light tanks. Also don't be afraid of the d3 deaths for the assault just make sure to run 20 Stormboyz + Zagtrukk.

I haven't had good experience with the Gretchin so I think its worth dropping em.

Keep in mind though, a lot of tournament rulings (including INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.

Sounds like bad luck with the lootas.
the usually tend to work great for me.

i have also used stormboyz, allways take zag with them.
he can get the drop on walkers in combat on the 1st turn (since he gets to strike in Init. order on the charge)

they are also good at picking off small elite units (even termies are game for them)

only problems are:

a: 12 points each
b: low armour, tend to get shot alot
c: tend to lose 1 every now and them due to accidents lol


other than that though they are pretty good in general
just kinda pissed that nobz / boss's cant take jump packs :(


if you are going to take a unit with zag then it may be worth taking a 2nd unit to help it out, counter charging any units that get in the way.
another highly mobile klaw allways helps.

Stormboyz don't do very well in my experience. I'd stick to the lootaz. When I take lootaz I always try to take two squads of at least 10. Whenever I run one squad they don't perform at all. When I run two they perform much better. I've never been impressed with grots. If your opponent sneezes on them they're likely to break. With all of those walkers in your army I'd stick with two big meks with KFFs. You should also max out any foot slogging boy units you have.

I've never found stormboyz to work extremely effectively, but I have had some luck with them flying alongside a BW. I wouldn't run 40 of them, at the most 20 with Zags. Lootas are good, very good, and remember if one squad is good, two is better. Putting them in the BW is cool, but you lose round of shooting by having to move them in there, as elites they can't take the BW as dedicated. Even if they don't really mess a lot of things up, the psychological impact is worth the points, you'll force youre opponent into different areas since he'll want to avoid getting shot by the lootas firing lanes. Its nice to compliment the Lootas with a Big Mek with SAG, but the KFF is probably more useful in the army youre running.

To clarify, the lootas can or can't shoot after the BW moves, I would think that they couldn't, but if they can that would be incredibly cheesy and I would have to whore that combo.

No. Deffguns are heavy weapons, which means they cannot fire if the transport has moved.

I always use a minimum of 2 loota units if I run them at all. The reason I do this is because now I get two d3 shot rolls instead of only 1. The chance of getting completely unlucky rolls with both units is highly unlikely.

So yeah Lootas are susceptible to bad shot rolls, which is why you should be looking for redundancy.

Kevin Nash wrote:The chance of getting completely unlucky rolls with both units is highly unlikely.

1 out of 9.

FuzzyOrb wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:The chance of getting completely unlucky rolls with both units is highly unlikely.

1 out of 9.

Yes, a good illustration

So only an 11% chance to get terrible rolls vs. a 33% chance if you only run a single unit. So spend twice the points but get three times the effectiveness. Sort of.

In most situations, Lootas perform fine even when they only fire 1 shot. 3 shots = ridiculous.

For instance, a common tactic I see with nids is several very small groups of genestealers running around. 5 groups of 8-10 geanstealers is fearsome if they get the charge off on you or even if you charge them with your initiative 2.

Introduce a barrage of strength 7 shooters that never even get close to the stealers to rain down destruction, and you very quickly turn whichever group your boyz were about to come into contact with into a road bump instead of a group wiper.

Probably their strongest point in my army is that they are able to fill in where the other boyz fail. I can work out all of my 18" shots first to see where I stand before even drumming up the lootas fire. Taking the same example above, if my boyz were busy preparing to charge something other than the stealers, or they planned to assault the stealers, but didn't land enough shots, then enter Lootas. Their support fire will typically decimate whatever it hits, or at least fill in the missing shots that the shootas couldn't land even when they roll badly.

Need a rhino to disappear so that you can charge the marine inside? Lootas do that very well.

Need a group of scouts that are picking off your nobz with their ridiculous special character to disappear? Lootas handle that quite well.

Ah, those fire warriors just got out of their fishies and annhiliated a whole group of boyz holding an objective! Lootas provide an armor piercing 2+ to wound retaliation strike custom made fire warrior eliminator.

Lootas have an excellent return rate in points per shot fired in comparison with your typical boyz squad, so keep them in cover to avoid giving away easy high point kills to your opponent. Keeping them on top of buildings is best for providing clear line of sight as well as keeping them off the ground floor to give usually an extra turn of defense from outflank attacks.

Do not put them on vehicles, as the only thing they should be doing from turn 1 on is shooting. Shake your fists at the sky in anger when you roll Dawn of War since that invariably means you will lose 1 round of their firepower.

Also, as noted above, always max out your boyz squads. I don't know how you are coming up with groups that end in 80, but if you are fielding your boyz in groups of 20, that probably has more to do with causing a defeat than your lootas. When constructing a group of regular boyz, be they shootas or sluggas, they always go in groups of 30 unless you are tossing them in a trukk. Just think of 30 boyz and a nob with a PK to be mandatory picks when you write down "ork boyz" on your army list, then adjust anything else based on preference.

I would always recommend running your loota's in groups of 9 or 13. It makes it so that they will have to take one more casualty before losing that 25% and having to take a moral check.

Skeletor wrote:I would always recommend running your loota's in groups of 9 or 13. It makes it so that they will have to take one more casualty before losing that 25% and having to take a moral check.

Nope...conventional wisdom (and my own Loota based army experience) says that you want Lootas in 12 or the full 15. Never start with less than 10, because you at least want to start out fearless, and 13 doesn't require any more losses than 12 before you cannot regroup. The reason for a full 15 is obvious..more boys to lose before you lose fearless and start meaking checks.

12 = leadership test after 3 casualties (average of 12 s4 hits to cause).
13 = leadership test after 4 casualties. (average of 16 s4 hits to cause).

Two squads of 13 are the magic numbers for me.

Seems reasonable to me.

Its amazing how an army built around close combat has a ranged unit favored over a unit that gets into CC quicker.

Its mind boggling.

I love stormboyz. A great close combat unit with a int striking PK, extra movement over other jumpack units, and all very orky.

I actually enjoy the risk of loosing a boy or two to rocket failure. Keeps the game interesting.

combatmedic wrote:Its amazing how an army built around close combat has a ranged unit favored over a unit that gets into CC quicker.

Its mind boggling.

I love stormboyz. A great close combat unit with a int striking PK, extra movement over other jumpack units, and all very orky.

I actually enjoy the risk of loosing a boy or two to rocket failure. Keeps the game interesting.

Its hard not to favor a ranged unit with str 7 48" range and a possible 3 shots. Lootas are incredible, they almost never completely fail when theyre used right. Stormboyz as far as I can tell, are like a 50/50 shot of great or nothing. The init PK is tempting, but you only get the one round with it, which is lame.

Well, we have our reasons for liking each unit.

Stormboyz can deepstrike, and do have access to Zagstrukk, although I personally would argue he's a huge waste of points (see my post above). The Stormboyz are going to be receiving cover from very little incoming fire, and have little to no survivability, with a stat line equivalent to a regular Choppa which costs roughly 1/3rd the points to take.

Lootas on the other hand fill a role that is otherwise lacking in the ork list that Carnuss pointed out earlier -- cleanup. A squad of Lootas can reach almost any point on the table, and offset their poor ballistic skill with excellent strength. On the other hand, they're begging to be hit with an outflank/deep strike assault, have no mobility, and can't hurt AV14.

The deciding factor for me is that I can use Trukk Boyz to achieve the same goal as Stormboyz. Lootas aren't replaceable.

combatmedic wrote:Its amazing how an army built around close combat has a ranged unit favored over a unit that gets into CC quicker.

The problem is that any unit in the Ork codex can do good to great in close combat, but only a few can shoot worth anything.

Damn you people and your logic....

I play both units and I like them the same.
In some battles I loose all my stormboyz and in some others not.
The lootas for me its a good long range ork unit. And often some enemis they dont have the time to shoot the lootas and focus on the orks in the front lines

Malecus wrote:Keep in mind though, a lot of tournament rulings (including INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.

Zag has a powerklaw as long as he is in an assault, not just the initial turn.

In my opinion its more about deployment, with all the models that Ors have to deploy, Lootas can be blown to bits...

The key is to have clear firing lines and not too much in the open... having lots of threat saturation helps...

Remember it is safe to shoot through your orks, and grethins at things like terminators and MEQS as they will get a 3+ save anyway and will not take the inferior 4+ save you kindly hand to them... With this in mind, if they shoot back, you now have the 4+ save...

The answer is to run lots of stormboyz AND lootas. Troops should be squads of19 grots with 1 herder. 60 stormboyz assaulting turn 2 means that your lootas won't get shot by as much. Stormboyz will draw the fire and tie down shooting units in combat. Lootas are then free to shoot combat squads and light tanks/dreads. For some nice durability 3 battlewagons and a big mek to protect your lootas for KP missions, and use them to get objectives with your grots in the other missions.

You know, that's not a bad idea... Swarm one section of the enemy line with Stormboyz, Lootas tear up anything in countercharge range. Maybe throw in one Trukk of Nobz to hit with a bit more punch, and let your Grots sit around and pick their noses (or paint more signs). Not sure it would hold up in a kill point mission, but playing for objectives, this would be almost a guaranteed win. I'm gonna try that out sometime.

Malecus wrote:Keep in mind though, a lot of tournament rulings (including INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.

No, with furios charge you get 5 I4 WS5 S9 attacks, same swing time as MEQs, hit on 3s, ignores armor saves, causing an average of 3 dead marines from him alone, that negates the maximum casualties for his swoop attack losses then you add the attacks from the rest of the stormboyz and you just won that combat. Not to mention that he can penetrate a land raider on the turn he deep strikes. Also, Zagstruck has a PK every time he charges not just the first.