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Hey guys!

The Disclaimer
First thing's first: You'll never see me field these kinds of lists at a club. These are strictly for tourney play where people expect to play against them. The intention behind these lists it to be as ugly, disgusting, and brutal as possible (basically all the things I hate about this hobby). So why do it? Classic response: "Because everyone else is..." (at a competitive tournament). Think of it as an arm's build up...

So before anyone starts bmoaning, I'd like to kindly remind them that these lists aren't intended for friendly play. I'll hardly ever use them because I don't really like tournaments. But when I do decide to go I'd like to give it my best from a list-build perspective.

Plea for help!
I'd like you guys to help me build this nasty list, it can be our own Frankenstein and since this thread is strictly BS let's not get too heated shall we?

The Math-hammer

(EDIT: These we're all stolen from Dakka and the 40k community at large; I apologize in advance. If you recognize something please let me know so I can insert the appropriate links and give credit)!

Effectiveness at killing AV 14 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/234631.page

Assumptions:
1. Target is not in cover (if you want to, you can just halve everything if you want to see what the numbers look like for targets in cover)
2. Target is AV14
3. Any melta weapons are within their half-range to maximize armor penetration
4. Where the “Bring it Down!” (BiD!) order has been factored into the calculation, the probability of that unit passing it’s Leadership roll has been included in the calculation.
5. The probability of a hit for blast templates was based the thought that you place the center of the marker in the center of the tank so that you hit with the scatter dice 1/3 of the time, plus the probability of deviating less than 2”. I’m assuming that if you deviate more than 2”, the center of the marker is off the vehicle and the strength of your blast is then halved and you won’t get a kill shot.

Results – Effectiveness

This is purely a gauge of what unit has the best chance of killing AV14, regardless of cost. The percentile next to the unit name is the probability of scoring a kill in a single round. Here are your anti-tank units ranked from most to least effective.

1. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox (114%)
2. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! (94%)
3. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox, Commissar (0.93%)
4. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD!, Vox (88%)
5. Company Command Squad w/ 4 Melta (85%)
6. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! Commissar (79%)
7. Demolisher w/ MM Sponsons, KC Pask (75%)
8. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta, BiD! (69%)
9. Veterans w/ 3 Melta (64%)
10. Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Melta (64%)
11. Special Weapons Squad w/ 3 Melta (48%)
12. Demolisher w/ MM Sponsons (45%)
13. Storm Troopers w/ 2 Melta (42%)
14. Devil Dog w/ MM (35%)
15. Vanquisher w/ Lascannon, Pask (26%)
16. Devil Dog (19%)
17. Vanquisher w/ Lascannon (15%)
18. Vendetta (13%)
19. Heavy Weapon Squad w/ 3 Lascannon (8%)

Observations

- Melta weapons kill AV14 more reliably than anything else
- More meltas are better than less
- “Bring it Down!” works extremely well with meltas
- Voxes are more cost-effective than Commissars when it comes to making sure that leadership rolls for Orders are made
- Twin-linking lascannons – whether by “Bring it Down!” or as weapon on their own aren’t nearly as effective as meltas

Number of Lasgun shots needed to kill...

A single Space Marine: 1 failed save = 3 wounds = 9 hits = 18 shots
5 Space Marines: 18x5= 90 shots
A Single Ork: 1 failed save = 1.2 wounds = 3.6 hits = 7.2 shots.
10 Orkz: 72 shots
10 Dire Avengers 10 failed saves = 20 wounds = 40 hits = 80 shots
10 Guardians 10 failed saves = 15 wounds = 30 hits = 60 shots
A single Nob Ork Biker 1 failed FnP = 2 failed saves = 4 wounds = 24 hits = 48 shots.
A Single Carnifex (T6, 2+ save) 4 failed saves = 24 wounds = 144 hits = 288 shots (192 if you use "Bring it down"). Without the Extended Carapace you need only half the shots. Carnies with T7 are untouchable by lasguns, and with Reinforced Chitin they need 20% more shots to be taken down, so 345.6.

The List (Beta / WIP)

Unit / Quantity / Total Price

Command Squad 1 50
Regimental Standard 1 15
Master of Ordnance 1 30
Officer of the Fleet 1 30
Astropath 1 30
Chimera 1 55
Smoke Grenades 1 5

Command Squad 1 50
Regimental Standard 1 15
Master of Ordnance 1 30
Astropath 1 30
Chimera 1 55
Smoke Grenades 1 5

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Platoon Command Squad 1 30
Melta-guns 4 40

Infantry Squad 2 100
Melta Guns 2 20
Lascannons 2 40
Commissar 1 35
Com Power Weapon 1 10
Sgt Power Weapon 1 10

Valkyries 3 300
Multiple Rocket Pods 3 90

Ratlings 30 30
Additional Ratlings 7 70

Rationale

Tanks are overrated. Every Space Marine player and their mom takes Vulkan which means every tactical squad has a twin-linked melta and multi-melta When you factor in lone landspeeders and Attack Bikes, the odds of my tanks surviving past Turn 2 are minimal. The only justification I can think of for taking them is their ability to kill lots of infantry (even marines -sans cover), but if they can't last past turn 2 there's no point. I need alternatives but I haven't found any past the humble infantry squad.

Melta weapons are the new 'uber-weapon' in Wh40k. They're the only weapon you can count on to '1-shot' vehicles. My platoon command squads will be held in reserve with the Valkyries for deep-strike / out-flank on Turn 2 (2 Astropath = Guaranteed Arrival).

The Valkyries themselves are all armed with Multiple Rocket Pods, which will help me deal with Orkz and other horde armies. I've also got two Master's of Ordnance who can each call down a Str. 9 large blast Ordnance barrage.

I've also got 6 Infantry Squads, which I plan on fielding as 3 combined squads of 20. The Commissars make them stubborn which will keep them on an objective or avoid a pinning test. Enemy assault's are inevitable, but I'm hoping I won't lose all three squads to assault before I have a chance to shoot stuff. If a squad does get assaulted, it's stubborn, has 20 wounds and 2 power weapons which will hopefully do something.

I'm tempted to take Straken, although a recent game suggests his killing potential is overrated, he gives Furious Charge and Counter-Attack to every unit within 24", which is disgusting in the right circumstances. Counter-Attack shouldn't be underestimated, it means your 'guard units always count as charging in the first round of combat!

Concerns:

Enemy Assaults, Fragility and a lack of killing power. Wh40k 5th edition is all about close combat, Turn 2 assaults are pretty much the norm. Imperial Guard are always going to have a problem with assaults and I can only think of 2 methods:

1) Write-off the assaulted unit, hope you have enough units left to wipe out the consolidating attacker.

2) Absorb the charge, wipe out the attacking unit.

Most people will go with Option 1, but I've found it takes way too much firepower to do this and sometimes you need to stay planted on an objective. Option #2 is an ideal, we'd all take it if we had the ability to do it but guardsmen aren't very good at it...

I've gone with a compromise, I figure 20 men with 2 power weapons (4 armor-ignoring attacks total) is enough to fight back against a reduced Tactical Squad or severely depleted Ork mob. If it gets wiped out, there's two other large infantry squads with lascannons and melta guns to retaliate. There's also the Valkyries (if they're still alive) and ordnance barrages.

So er, yeah... what do you guys think? The only thing I'm refusing to budge on is vehicles: So far I refuse to take them, they die way too easily to Vulkan and his Space Marines.

out of LOS artillery? A couple of griffons at least to add out of los turn 1 striking power. I always play 1 griffon and 1 or 2 colossi. And your countercharge is non existent. I run 2 8 horse RR squads offboard in reserve. They always win their points back.

Comissar lord with with ogryn, rough riders are you counter charge. Building your list to down av 14 only will leave your over gunned and under manned. Park your tanks in cover screen them with chimea, hiding behind something, then lumber them out when you have a clean shot.

I think you're going to get wrecked, not to put too fine a point on it.

This list is not excellent at long range shooting, short range shooting, or close combat. You've got a mixed bag of men on the field and you're relying on meltaguns to kill assault transports (which are already close enough to deliver their payload regardless of whether or not you've stopped it).

This is basically a 4th ed Guard list with meltaguns added in everywhere. You have a lot of scoring troops that are stubborn, which makes them more resilient to shooting, but in the assault is a severe detriment as it is likely they will not break after one phase, meaning you will not be able to shoot whatever has assaulted them.

This list cannot fight Shrike Terminators, Nob Bikers, Lash Chaos, Drop Pod Marines, Eldarzilla, or mechanised Guard. You say you're terrified of Vulkan marines, but you create large blob platoons that will be eaten alive by heavy flamers.

If you're going to create a Man-Spam list, then do so and put 250 bodies on the field. This list in its current incarnation just won't work.

First off, its large blasts that are overrated not tanks. If you're worried about Vulkan melta weapons, you're just being paranoid. Land Speeders and attack bikes still have to get on top of you to make use of the melta bonus, and they're pretty fragile units. They also suffer from one-shot syndrome that I would like to call the "railgun syndrome". Sure it's as good of a shot as you're going to get, but its hardly guaranteed. (You'd be surprised at how many tau players I play that get angry that their hammerhead can't pop a tank every turn.) Well of course if you melta spam, you won't have anything to kill land speeders before they shoot up your vehicles... Meltas are great, but are not ubiquitous. Unless you face land raider spam on a regular basis, so many meltas aren't needed.

Hey guys, thanks for the quick responses and I appreciate your frankness! I'll do my best to respond to all comments in the order they were given:

...out of LOS artillery? A couple of griffons at least to add out of los turn 1 striking power. I always play 1 griffon and 1 or 2 colossi. And your countercharge is non existent. I run 2 8 horse RR squads offboard in reserve. They always win their points back.

I'll be honest, none of this sounds very realistic to me but maybe your gaming group plays differently. I haven't used Griffin's yet but their AP4 strikes me as being unfeasible against MEQs.

I agree with you about a lack of counter-charge, but I don't think Rough Riders fit the bill. My experience is that they always get shot up before they can do their job. If I hold them in reserve, they always arrive too early, only to be shot up. There's also the "1-shot" factor. So I wipe out a squad of Space Marines, then what? They're useless now.

Comissar lord with with ogryn, rough riders are you counter charge. Building your list to down av 14 only will leave your over gunned and under manned. Park your tanks in cover screen them with chimea, hiding behind something, then lumber them out when you have a clean shot.

I like Ogryns, but they lack power weapons or any ability to ignore enemy armor saves in close combat. The Commissar Lord strikes me as a cheap unit with a nice LD buff, but he's an independent character which means he can be targeted (and eliminated) separately in close combat. You actually have a valid point about tanks and cover, I'm still debating how to pull this off without sinking too many points.

I think you're going to get wrecked, not to put too fine a point on it.

This list is not excellent at long range shooting, short range shooting, or close combat. You've got a mixed bag of men on the field and you're relying on meltaguns to kill assault transports (which are already close enough to deliver their payload regardless of whether or not you've stopped it).

This is basically a 4th ed Guard list with meltaguns added in everywhere. You have a lot of scoring troops that are stubborn, which makes them more resilient to shooting, but in the assault is a severe detriment as it is likely they will not break after one phase, meaning you will not be able to shoot whatever has assaulted them.

This list cannot fight Shrike Terminators, Nob Bikers, Lash Chaos, Drop Pod Marines, Eldarzilla, or mechanised Guard. You say you're terrified of Vulkan marines, but you create large blob platoons that will be eaten alive by heavy flamers.

If you're going to create a Man-Spam list, then do so and put 250 bodies on the field. This list in its current incarnation just won't work.

I found this post pretty helpful, I don't mind your bluntness. I disagree about Mechanized Guard, Eldarzilla and Drop Pod marines, but shrike (cleverly-used), Nob bikers or a dual lash list could put hurt on me.

Taking all your points together, what would you propose fielding to deal with the issues you've raised?

Just a thought here, but how does all the math-hammering get hurt against an AV14 with living metal special rule?

Against living metal meltaguns become nearly worthless, but the Medusa does pretty well.

Taking all your points together, what would you propose fielding to deal with the issues you've raised?

I cover a lot of this in my thread on the 900 point core. You can click my name and look at the threads I'm subscribed to.

Tanks are not a bad thing. They are also much harder to kill than your impressions reveal. I agree that Vulkan melta marines put a hurt on them, but there's many ways to protect against that:

Hydras, 75 point autocannon platforms that negate SMF saves. 3 Hydras cost 225 points and will crush Land Speeders all day. The Hydra is also an excellent rhino cracker. This solves at least two problems that Vulkan marines pose.

Inquisitor + Mystics. Suddenly drop pods (and daemons) aren't a problem.

JD21290 wrote:Just a thought here, but how does all the math-hammering get hurt against an AV14 with living metal special rule?

S8 can only glance, so -2 for glance and +1 for AP1. Makes BS4 Meltas a 2/3 chance in hitting, 1/6 of those will glance, 1/6 of those will go boom. Thats 54 melta shots, or roughly 1.85% chance per melta. So a Command melta squad gets a 7.4% chance to make it go boom. Stick with TL las or Medusa Siegebreakers for that (S10AP1).

I have to agree, Armor is where it's at and if that makes Vulcan Marines your worst matchup that’s not a bad thing as Mystics and either Vendettas or Hydras give Vulcan lists ( My only non guard army BTW ) the cold night shakes.

However, because of that everyone is going to start considering MechGuard in their tourney builds so that does give a guyspam list specifically built to counter MechGuard and it’s primary opponents a nice niche.

Your first task is to try to guess the shift the meta game will take to adapt to MechGuard. You are right that Vulkan Marines are one of those lists, but you will also see modified Nob Bikers with Loota support, Battlewagon Spam, Kairos Crusherspam, Mono Tezentch Railtongue Deamons, MechDar, MechTau, Mech Lash and plenty of creative lists we have yet to see.

Since your current list will struggle ( and I promise you Mech Guard will be a VERY bad match up for you in your current config) Against all of the above you need to shift to target those threats.

These are the things you need answers to. (in no particular order)

1 AV12/11 Transports (Chimeras, Devilfish, Wave Serpents, Rhinos)

2 AV14/13 Long Range Support ( Predators, Hammer Heads, Land Raiders, Russ Squadrons)

2 2+ save assault units in mechanized carriers ( Battle wagon Nobz, Land raider Assault Termies )

3 Large Ultra resilient assault units ( Nob Bikers, Seer Council, Seer Council Bikers, SM Bike/Foot Command Squads)

4 Medium Torrent of Fire Units (Ork Lootas, IG Hydras, WarWalkers, Necron Warriors, DakkaNids, IG Infantry Platoons ect…)

5 Deep Strikers / Deamons

6 Fastmoving specialized assault units ( Khorne Berzerkers, Assault Marines, Eldar Harlies, Banshees, Orc Stormboyz, Nids in general ect…)

If you have at least two units that can deal with each of these threats in the army then you have a shot.

Some general things also to consider about the new guard. (these are all IMHO, but seem to have been pretty well confirmed with all the testing going on right now)

A Master of Ordnance sucks, he is almost guaranteed to miss anything but a huge ork boyz unit.

B BS3 Lascannons ( as you gave wonderful example of in your own chart ) are not very effective.

C BS3 Meltas (PCS melta Squads) are dramatically less effective than Vets or CCS, put your meltas there.

D Flamers make excellent counter charge/ anti assault units when used en masse. (PCS or Vets)

Based on the above I would recommend GL or Plasma + AC for infantry squads, 4x melta or 3x melta + standard for CCS and 3x FL +HF or 4x FL for PCS.

Then go infantry + heavy armor as AV 14 can deal with almost anything when screened by large numbers of infantry to keep the melta’s away.

In this kind of army meltacide stormies can actually fill a valuable role as well.

Hey thanks for the response, I think you're right but I can't help but ask: Did anybody read the part about the platoon command squads in the valkyries? It doesn't solve all the issues on the list but it does answer a few. I feel like people completely missed that.

You need tanks. Valks are a good unit to beef up your army, but they should not be the main course.

Agreed with Sourclams, et. al.

I'm planning this at 1750:

CCS, Bolt Pistol, PF, 4x Melta, OotF, Bodyguard
Chimera, HF

8 PBS, Overseer
Chimera
Inq/Mystics

10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol
Chimera, HF
10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol
Chimera, HF
10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol

Vendetta
Vendetta

Plasma Executioner
2 Medusa, Enclosed, Bastion Breachers
2x Hydra, HF

No, I get you about the Valk mounted Squads, although I would strongly recomend not using PCS as you cant count on getting them BID in the enemys backfield, and without it bs3 meltaguns, even 4 of them are not that reliable.

I also think that making a point of going guyspam is a legitimate response to all of the Mech IG lists that you will see out there due to how the metagame will shift to respond.

If you do the same thing with your CCS or Vet squads if you want to have the CCS there for orders and leadership. In a foot army I can see that being legitimate.

I will work on an alternative that stays in the spirit of what you have here and see what you think.

Razerous brain wrote:I think massed infantry platoons & company command squads have a place in my army. Sadly this means I have to grab a platoon command squad, equipable but a possibly point sink @ bs3. GL/mortars are probably the best for backfield PCS.

I also like vets, bs4, with melta guns - specifically in valkyries.

I dont like double-positives on my unit-roles. AT lascannons & AT meltas = a big no no.

I also like the vendettas armements. Range AT=win

Scoring vehicles are generally lots of win

Ooo.. Ive just found a place for PCS. Add flamers & call it a day

Ayup.

I think you seriously underestimate the durability of guard tanks. Given the sheer number of fieldable infantry you can make it impossible to effectively bring melta weapons within half range of your vehicles. I play against an IG pure armored company regularly, and he's been having a field day. Theres very little outside of speccing specifically to beat him that I can do to compete (I play marines).

Indeed, your usual opponent will not have the required AT ability to handle a mech/armoured company IG army right now, meltas are all well and good but it can be very tricky getting them close enough to have maximum effect-most of the good IG tanks have 36-72 inch range and with mystics it makes deep striking nearly a nonissue. However the meta game will change and people will stack long range tanks or troops of their own which IMO can be quite tricky for guard to take down-a dreadnought in cover for example is a pain, as are hull down land raiders.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think you seriously underestimate the durability of guard tanks. Given the sheer number of fieldable infantry you can make it impossible to effectively bring melta weapons within half range of your vehicles. I play against an IG pure armored company regularly, and he's been having a field day. Theres very little outside of speccing specifically to beat him that I can do to compete (I play marines).

1-2x Scout squads. Include telion in one of them. Use rocket launchers.

Deep striking bits.

Deploy 1st wave troops away from mystic but in good position. Open up first turn with scouts on mystic squad. Either shoot off the transport & kill the mystics or just kill the mystics. Optional - use a MotF to reinforce cover to provide a 2+ cover from any crazy fire or PBS. 2nd turn, use those same scouts to target any PBS, any chimera for an armoured style army or the CCS/PCS specifically if its infantry heavy.

Drop in in the second wave & have a field day.

Vulkan, MotF, 2-4xscouts, Dredenoughs in many drop pods. Try that - should beat up guard quite nicely.

All guard tanks are weak in the rear. Most are weak in the sides. Kill any mystics/PBS's & go crazy!

A nice shooty list at long range seems like it would eat that list -- Orks w/ Lootas, some eldar builds, other Guard, etc.

I make a point of never having meltas and lascannons (or other heavy weapons) in the same squad, since they perform opposite roles and your meltas will almost always want to move and fire. One or the other is guaranteed waste of points.

For counter-charge, you can always turn to the DH list and grab the Eversor, or even the Callidus. (I often take a Callidus to scare Eldar bike councils...)

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote: I haven't used Griffin's yet but their AP4 strikes me as being unfeasible against MEQs.

You're forgetting three important things:

1) The "Accurate Bombardment" rule.
2) Cover.
3) They're only 75 points each.

And if you're fielding a PBS, you're also forgetting:

4) The pinning check.

All guard tanks are weak in the rear. Most are weak in the sides. Kill any mystics/PBS's & go crazy!

You have to see the mystics to kill them, the tanks have AV 13 side armor so missles are not effective at all, squadrons make rear shots very difficult.

All armor is not the best build, but armor shielded by either Chims or Guardsmen will give even the best Vulkan lists an stiff fight. Your list with some mods will have one of its best matchups against Vulkan even with tanks.

Meltas need to get within 12" and tons of infantry make that impossible for DSing Dreads. Deepstriking outside that range just makes them Vendetta bait on the IG turn, or even before with mystics in a Valkdetta.


As to some suggested improvements, Here is a list I actually am starting to really like as an alternative to my Mech Guard List.

CCS 4x Melta – 90 (Valk or with the troops)

Cannoness w/Book of Stubborn - 50 (Attach to CCS or a PCS if CCS goes tank hunting.)

Inquisitor w/ 2x Mystics -32 ( Valk or hiding behind the Russ Squadron.)

Inf Platoon: PCS 4x Flamer, 2x Inf Squad w/ GL AC - 180

Inf Platoon: PCS 4x Flamer, 2x Inf Squad w/ GL AC - 180

Inf Platoon: PCS 4x Flamer, 2x Inf Squad w/ GL AC - 180

Vets 3x Melta, - 100 (rides in a ‘detta)

Vets 3x Melta, - 100 (rides in a ‘detta)

1x Pod Valk -130

1x Vendetta – 130

1x Vendetta – 130

Pruss Squadron - Exterminator/plasma sponsons 230 + Russ - 150

Hydra Battery - 150

So lets see how this meets our goals,



1 AV12/11 Transports (Chimeras, Devilfish, Wave Serpents, Rhinos)

For this we have: 6 AC’s in the infantry platoons, a Hydra Battery and 2 Vendettas - Solid

2 AV14/13 Long Range Support ( Predators, Hammer Heads, Land Raiders, Russ Squadrons)

Here we have 2 vendettas, and 10 fast deployment cabable (Valkdettas) twin linked (BID) meltaguns and 6 TL lascannons! - Solid

3 2+ save assault units in mechanized carriers ( Battle wagon Nobz, Land raider Assault Termies )

Really golden here with 2 Valks, PRuss Squadron , and the aforementioned 10 meltaguns.

4 Large Ultra resilient assault units ( Nob Bikers, Seer Council, Seer Council Bikers, SM Bike/Foot Command Squads)

See Item 2, pluss the massed AC fire frm the Hydras and Infantry Platoons does not hurt at all.

5 Medium Torrent of Fire Units (Ork Lootas, IG Hydras, WarWalkers, Necron Warriors, DakkaNids, IG Infantry Platoons ect…)

Pod Valk, Prusses, Hydras, Infantry Platoon AC’s - I think this is the closest to a weak spot we have here because you can be outshot by some types of long range torrent units, but you also have a good answer in the form of your pcs squads deploying through the valkdettas, suprisingly effective against any infantry and dirt cheap to boot.

6 Deep Strikers / Deamons

The Mystic and two Prusses is just disgustingly effective here, this is the reason to run the prusses as a squadron as opposed to single if you have deamons or ds as a major part of your metagame.

7 Fastmoving specialized assault units ( Khorne Berzerkers, Assault Marines, Eldar Harlies, Banshees, Orc Stormboyz, Nids in general ect…)

The whole army really works well here, every unit you have can hurt them and they get pounded at range and up close.


There is still plenty of room for improvement as this is just a first run at a more infantry based list but I think it has a much better shot against the mech lists we sould expect to predominate the post guard metagame.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Agreed with Sourclams, et. al.

I'm planning this at 1750:

CCS, Bolt Pistol, PF, 4x Melta, OotF, Bodyguard
Chimera, HF

8 PBS, Overseer
Chimera
Inq/Mystics

10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol
Chimera, HF
10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol
Chimera, HF
10 Vet, 3x Meltas, Bolt Pistol

Vendetta
Vendetta

Plasma Executioner
2 Medusa, Enclosed, Bastion Breachers
2x Hydra, HF

The one thing I'm still not sold on about Sourclam's 900 point core is the reliance on Hydras instead of Griffons. Weaken Resolve seems to synergize much better with pinning checks than with morale checks. Unless you're fighting IG, a pinned unit stays pinned, and pinning happens immediately, which lets you move on to focus your remaining firepower on other threats.

As for the Enclosed Bastion Breaching Medusa, for only five more points I think it's worthwhile to consider upgrading to a Manticore. Obviously you can't make a Manticore squadron, but a Medusa squadron seems like a very questionable decision. The squadron rules hurt both the survivability and shootniness of a BB Medusa more than almost any other possible tank squadron. ("Overkill" is a much bigger problem when shooting vehicles than it is when shooting infantry units. And low-armor platforms that require LOS are far more likely to fall victim to the survivability downsides of the squadron rules.)

The one thing I'm still not sold on about Sourclam's 900 point core is the reliance on Hydras instead of Griffons. Weaken Resolve seems to synergize much better with pinning checks than with morale checks. Unless you're fighting IG, a pinned unit stays pinned, and pinning happens immediately, which lets you move on to focus your remaining firepower on other threats.

I have to say I see Hydras working only if conjuction with Valkdettas. If you depend on the hydras alone thats putting too much pressure on a single unit that must put itself in LOS to be effective.

I do think griffins may be the better choice, and even better in conjuction with Vendettas. 3 Vendettas and 4 Griffins in two squadrons with a PRuss Squadron ( 1 Executioner with sponsons and a naked russ ) and a Mystic team. thats 1100 with 750 left for troops and HQ.

Just a thought, although going 2 griffins, 2 hydras, in that scenario may work better for the same price.

Thats the killer with guard now, there really are so many solid choices that its hard to know what to choose.

Dave47 wrote:
As for the Enclosed Bastion Breaching Medusa, for only five more points I think it's worthwhile to consider upgrading to a Manticore. Obviously you can't make a Manticore squadron, but a Medusa squadron seems like a very questionable decision. The squadron rules hurt both the survivability and shootniness of a BB Medusa more than almost any other possible tank squadron. ("Overkill" is a much bigger problem when shooting vehicles than it is when shooting infantry units. And low-armor platforms that require LOS are far more likely to fall victim to the survivability downsides of the squadron rules.)

It's easy to provide the Medusa squadron cover with a sideways chimera. Even an open-topped squadron is giong to require a lot of firepower to put down if it has a 4+ cover save. Likewise, I've noticed that people try to focus on Vendettas before Medusas. Probably because Meds are in cover.

The Manticore isn't going to stop vehicles consistently. You'll get lucky occasionally, but the Medusa has the ability to go "hey, you, stop right there."

sourclams wrote:

The Manticore isn't going to stop vehicles consistently. You'll get lucky occasionally, but the Medusa has the ability to go "hey, you, stop right there."

I believe that the Manticore is comparible to the Medusa at Anti tank, AP1 and extra pen Vs extra shots. Doing quick maths against AV14, assuming 2 blasts from the Manticore and all scatters hit (for both):
Medusa averages 15/18 pens at AP1
Manticore averages 20/18 pents without AP1 (and about 4 time the glances)

Number will obviously go more in favour of the Manticore as AV goes down (extra pen makes less of a difference).
Combimed with the anit infantry potential of the Manticore, it makes a very hard choice (as the Medusa can squadron and can fire all game, bur can't fire indirrect or over 48").

Plus the Manticore can pen more than one tank a turn, if an opponent decides to group them together.

The medusa makes infantry go away. The manticore doesnt (as much). The medusa effective range is -6" - 54" vs armor (besides monoliths, where I think standard armement is better due to the ordenance rule) and 0"-36" vs infantry. The manticore has a 24" minimum range. I dont like this, I think its quite restrictive.

Otherwise, its an awesomely powerful weapon. The 'four shots only' rule is mostly moot IMhO as I would count myself lucky if I got four rounds off from a main death weapon like the medusa/russ/manticore.

You kill mystics with scouts. Scouts can infiltrate & get 2+ coversaves (somthing which often gets ignored in the metagame) There are no AV13 transport vehicles in a guard army. Scouts have rocket launchers & sniper rifles, both of which can pen AV12. Scouts can kill the actual mystics easily.

Tons of infantry? Whats the radius of the mystics no-scatter? Tons of infantry vs h.flamers = a sadface. Also.. dredenoughts getting stuck into infantry platoons is generally a good thing. If I cant melta you with my meltas (although multi-meltas = the happy face) then you can melta me. Melta melta here not just melta. Yes there are lascannons but, well.. There are only so many & I can probably pop smoke.

Hydras will kill skimmers & jetbikes best. Griffons will kill all infantry best. Obviously 4+ bestest. Okay, doing the math & rounding on the last numbers & assuming a direct hit large blast will hit 7/10 models.. 3 griffons will kill 4 marines per barrage. 3 hydras will kill 2.

Personally - I think the inclusion of any 'allied' forces is chessy. I dont see any rules for 'allies' in my 5ed IG codex.. but ill give it a proper read when it actually gets delivered.

Well it does say that daemonhunter units can be included as allies in the following codex:

-space marines and its variants
-imperial guard and its variants

So while its obviously out of date, I still think inquisitors are allowed, and will be allowed when an faq comes out-however some players dont like allies which is fine for friendly games, but a lot of tournaments do allow ally rules.

Mystics have a 4d6 range which with a valk becomes huge because of the extremely large 'hull'.

On manticore vs medusa I tried both today (since I had a recommendation to include one rather than my medusa) and both were very useful in different ways..wish I could have both but would mean dropping hydras.

Being able to fire indirectly can be a huge boon, especially teamed with mystics stopping deep strikers getting to it-it was a little inaccurate but multiple large blasts do such crazy damage when they hit. I did miss the AP 1 of the medusa and being able to kill anyone with it is very nice but problem is with BS3 the small template can easily scatter off target, where as a manticore (especially if firing directly) will generally get at least a hit on the tank unless very unlucky. Like I've said in another thread, the 2d6 pen can also hurt any tank even if the hole scatters off unlike the manticore though.

Speaking of medusas, what are people's opinions on wether you can swap shells during the game, deciding which ammo to fire? I brought it up with my opponent and we decided you could pick which sort to fire but I could see people claiming if you bought the upgrade you have to use it : "...a medusa armed with bastion shells always fires with the following profile..."

Jpr wrote:"...a medusa armed with bastion shells always fires with the following profile..."

Poo. Missed that. Damn - I was banking on being able to use both shell types. That basically removes its anti-infantry ability & a chunk of anti-monolith action too.

Fudge-squiggle-rrraA!

Ive never understood how having inquisitors in an imperial army could be considered cheesy, thats central to the fluff from way back in the rogue Trader days.

And with respect, I do not see scouts as a reliable anti Valkyrie weapon. One missle shot that Pens 33% of the time and kills 33% of that? Sniper rifles rending against AV12 is not going to happen to often.

And they only get that 2+ coversave in conjuction with a Tech marine and in ruins, those are an just far to many conditions for something to be considered a valid counter.

Besides, theres no reason to bother, if you want to counter Mystics marines have plenty of other shooting to do so.