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heyy im new to this forum n i really need to get this cleared up.
so i basically want to sculpt my own modified models of nids that would be considerably different in detail & style but i still want to have them be looked at by a 40k gamer and be conceptually like nid models.
by this i mean that their would be some of the nid style included and the overal body stucture/ shape would be their sufficently for it to be seen on the tabletop & assumed to be say a zoanthrope or a fex..
Considering that they would not be copies of the gw models and that they would not be called by gw model names but could be said to "look like" said models, would it be illegal to reproduce my own sculpts & sell them to gamers that wish to have better quality models to field?

I personally don't even consider tyranid theme in general "completly original" so i dont see why i couldnt upgrade them considerably just as they have to Alien, predator and other ideas people have come up with..

i would also like to give them a more of a realistic look because im not into some of the overly "cartoony" looking models.. and alot more people could benefit from a completly new sculpts with a new look that would not be copied. the only reason they would even have the basic shape of the nid that i would be redoing is because they would have to be somwhat recognizable.

so id appreciate some feedback
thanx

You should be fine, if they're all sculpted completely by you and don't use parts from GW. There are some competing companies that make alien like miniatures.

Grendel (Kryomek)
Urban War

Those are two examples.

666 wrote:Hi, fellow Dakkaites. I'm new to this forum, and I need to get this cleared up.

As soon as I had read what you actually posted, I knew I was going to have to go through and do a rewrite of this whole thing.

666 wrote:So I basically want to sculpt my own modified Tyranids, which will be considerably different in detail and style, but still be conceptually similar to Tyranid models.

By this I mean that there would be some of the nid style included, and that the overall shape would be similar enough that people would assume it was a zoanthrope or a carnifex.

So you're sculpting them completely from scratch? In that case, why even make them similar enough that GW will sue you out of your pants? Loads of people would buy good alternative Tyranids, there's always a market for good alternative models. But if you make them obviously recognizable as GW models, they'll try to sue you. I guess I'd have to see how you pulled it off.

666 wrote:They would not be copies of the GW models, and they would not be called by GW model names, but they would look like GW models. Would it be illegal to reproduce my own sculpts and sell them to gamers that wish to have better quality models to field?

I think it's a vaguely gray area. It's legal if they're your own sculpts, but nobody likes to have their design copied. There are other people on here who know more about it than I do, and if they notice my post before they try to read yours, they may even stick around and argue over your question. And do you really think you can make better quality models than GW? I'll believe it when I see it.

666 wrote:I don't even consider the tyranid theme in general "completely original" so I don't see why I couldn't upgrade them considerably just as GW have to Alien, predator and other ideas people have come up with.

I'm sure GW will completely agree.

666 wrote:I would also like to give them a more realistic look, because I don't like some of the GW models, which I consider to be overly cartoony. I feel a lot more people could benefit from completely new sculpts which would not be copied, except for the basic shape which they would retain, so that they would be recognizable as Tyranids.

Yeah, "stuff". I got that. Again, if you feel that you can make better models than GW, why not make something of your own?

As a side note, you're a disgrace to the Interweb Canadians.

666 wrote:lhakan22dlfhkandglkadhldkng.xbl7kjnd.fh5n.knh

I can't be bothered to translate that.

They might have reason enough. The trouble is big companies have the money to
afford lawyers to challenge you on ip stuff and you might be in the right.

malfred wrote:They might have reason enough. The trouble is big companies have the money to
afford lawyers to challenge you on ip stuff and you might be in the right.

Yup. That's the truth. GW can afford to have lawyers file paperwork much more than a hobbyist sculptor.

That's not to say that you can't use their bits and severely modify them to reproduce and sell.... Fair Artistic Use and all that...

Dronze wrote:That's not to say that you can't use their bits and severely modify them to reproduce and sell.... Fair Artistic Use and all that...

This is part of why 'copyright' is a really complicated field. I'm not a lawyer, I doubt you're a lawyer, I think we had a lawyer on here during a previous discussion about this.

I think the usual rule of thumb is that you can use other images only if they're pretty much unrecognizable. Of course, there can be a loophole if you're "making a statement."

captain.gordino wrote:

666 wrote:I don't even consider the tyranid theme in general "completely original" so I don't see why I couldn't upgrade them considerably just as GW have to Alien, predator and other ideas people have come up with.

I'm sure GW will completely agree.

I am sure Gw will completely disagree, they have a whats yours is mine and whats mines my own attitude to fantasy IP. Fortunetely they dont have much of a leg to stand on. Even solely within the bounds of gaming culture Kryomek predated Tyranids, a fact that no doubt proved useful to the defence of Blizzard when GW lawyers came knocking on their door regarding Zerg.

Allow me to direct your attention to this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216922.page
especially point number 5 contained therein. (Props to Captian Gordino)

If you are sculpting your own stuff, you can reproduce & sell it all you want. It is totally legal. It can even look like GW's stuff. Go look at the stuff made by Pig Iron or Gamezone.
If your sculpts are too close to GW's designs (based on the opinion of their IP lawyers, and how much they think your line is cutting into their profits) you can expect a cease-and-desist order. At which the legal games begin, independant sculptor vs. deep-pockets corporation.

Orlanth wrote:

captain.gordino wrote:

666 wrote:I don't even consider the tyranid theme in general "completely original" so I don't see why I couldn't upgrade them considerably just as GW have to Alien, predator and other ideas people have come up with.

I'm sure GW will completely agree.

I am sure Gw will completely disagree, they have a whats yours is mine and whats mines my own attitude to fantasy IP. Fortunetely they dont have much of a leg to stand on. Even solely within the bounds of gaming culture Kryomek predated Tyranids, a fact that no doubt proved useful to the defence of Blizzard when GW lawyers came knocking on their door regarding Zerg.

I was being sarcastic, to tell the truth.

i dont really care if gw agrees, i care about wether or not it can be done
plus i am right. nids are NOT original
appart from the carapace plates and shortened heads their nid-like patterns are almost the same as alien..

ps. captain gordino, why dont you try and show some class..this is my third language and im 18 so i think im doing pretty well thank you.

Dronze wrote:That's not to say that you can't use their bits and severely modify them to reproduce and sell.... Fair Artistic Use and all that...

That would be a derivative work.

Copying a GW design and building it entirely by yourself would be a derivative.

Making a model that was similar to GW designs might be a derivative work, it would depend on how things went down in court.

GW are notoriously IP sue happy. The only way to be sure you are safe is to make your designs different to the GW designs, or else only copy the designs that are so generic they cannot be copyrighted by GW. Some of the Ork guns, for example, are practically identical to WW1 or WW2 weapons.

If someone has the skill to do good original sculpts, they are better off doing good, original sculpts. As Capt. Giordino said there is always a market for good models.

There's a lot of useful information on the topic in this thread.

Hmm. I had been told that to "Copy" GW IP was illegal for profit, but OK for personal use.

In that respect, is copying old GW parts illegal if you put them on your models? For "Non Profit"?

Dangit, the old point that I needed 2 Assault cannons for my 5 Man Termie squad are now moot....

DAMN you 5th Ed........

666 wrote:i dont really care if gw agrees, i care about wether or not it can be done
plus i am right. nids are NOT original
appart from the carapace plates and shortened heads their nid-like patterns are almost the same as alien..

ps. captain gordino, why dont you try and show some class..this is my third language and im 18 so i think im doing pretty well thank you.

I'm sorry I was so rude when you had already told us that. And if I were you, I would definitely care about whether GW cares. You're right about the nids, but do you have the lawyers to prove it?

As long as they dont look the same and you dont refer to them as tyranids or nids then you should be fine.
but they must be of your work only (so no GW parts)

If you're not selling it then you can't profit from it.

666 wrote:i dont really care if gw agrees, i care about wether or not it can be done
plus i am right. nids are NOT original
appart from the carapace plates and shortened heads their nid-like patterns are almost the same as alien..

You asked if it was legal. We're giving you an honest answer, which is "it depends on what the courts decide."

I am not a lawyer, but from my understanding the process goes something like this:

Alien and Aliens is created. Giger provides some designs, but it's mostly 20th century Fox that legally has the rights as I understand.

Later, the Tyranids are resculpted and do, indeed, resemble the critters from the movie Aliens a bit. Note that it might not be quite as close as you might think... The Aliens have the back horn-thingies as a big design factor, and of course the shiny black shell and protruding inner mouth. I've read that some jurisdictions will consider bullet points like that and look for a set number of key differences or similarities but, again, it's a very subjective case.

It's entirely possible that at some point a 20th Century Fox lawyer went over the Tyranid models and did some calculations to estimate if it's worth suing, and (here's an interesting point) if there's a need to pursue. I think it's trademark infringement that, at least in some jurisdictions, can weaken the ownership of a trademark if an infraction is not pursued. This can make companies a bit sue-happy at times. the lawyers also considered that while not that big, this 'Games Workshop' is big enough to make a lawsuit not quite worth the effort. And so nothing is done.

Now, years later, Some Guy in His Basement is contemplating making his own 'Not Tyranids.' If these are mass produced and go up for sale, GW might never notice unless they get successful... In which case GW will get a lawyer who will look into things and determine that while 'Some Guy in His Basement' has comparatively minimal assets, SGiHS also has minimal resources to mount a defense. If they feel that this guy is infringing and taking moeny from GW, they will sue.

SGiHB now has to either settle (likely for nothing more than agreeing not to sell any more and destroy the molds) or take several days out of his life to hire a lawyer and fight the case. He might win, sure, but GW's capable of stacking a deck with more lawyers and sees a lawsuit like this as a very minor commitment.

Either way, presumably, this won't stop you if your mind is made up.

it is illigal , that is : if you make them jus tlike regular nids with only some new accesorys

But then , the odds of them findin out are one in a [enter all table top players here]

*SIGH* The saying "reinventing the wheel" comes to mind......

Anyways, having said that....

There actually is a guy in Italy that has been scratch building The Emperor model and several Chapter Masters for several years now and sells them on ebay for like $40 each........Not sure if he had any legal probs, but he does not reference them at all to 40k or gw or warhammer, but boy they are obvious......


Now I will go and play my scratch built "Galaxy" Marines for my new game "41k" and fight my scratch built alien army of blue skinned techy "SAU"......

"What could possibly happen?"

You forget the #1 rule of lawsuits:
It doesn't matter if you are right, if you have more money, you win.

L. Sprague Decamp used to come into my shop and ask about "barbarian, sword wielding, fantasy type heroes". He and Lin Carter were the two authors that took over the RE Howard stories, partial stories, and notes, and turned them into the Conan paperback series with the great Frazetta covers. (Which led to all things conan yada yada). He was still in charge of the lisence for the Howard estate, and would come in periodically to ask about Conan knock offs. They'd evaluate them to see how close they came to the original. I remember handing him He-Man comics and similar things. I never heard of the Howard estate ever going after anyone, but it did give me an idea of how someone looks after their copyrights.

So wish I'd had him autograph some stuff. Sigh, was trying not to be a geek, but now regret it.

You should be OK until Jervis Johnson sees them. Then we all get little bits of you in our letterboxes.

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...................you know the rest

Seems to be alot of scare mongering going on. If you create something then its yours....full stop. Now, lets forget "Nids" for a second, lets talk about something that is easily recognisable....lets take Space Marines.....if you were to start sculpting Marines, but lets say you used poses currently unavailible by GW, technically, your work would be original, and therefore legal. However, GW could argue that you are using their images to create a "derivative" piece, but this would still be a grey area.

People are talking about if you have $$ then you have a court case win....rubbish, unless GW is going to buy the judge! You see, GW would need all that cash to take you to court, you'd only be liable for expenses if you lost....and to lose you'd have to be breaking the law....simply put! GW would have to be cock sure they would have you before they laid down the investment to sue......

Now thats Space Marines, with something so generic as "aliens" it would be extremely difficult for GW to prove you have ripped their IP with something like this, same with IG, hell even Ork sculptors could have a field day. My god, do you fancy making some Necrons?

I think your wasting your time.

You want an opinion? Just play with your own tyranids and if you feel like making your own special modifications to them- they are yours, go for it.

If you think you are going to reinvent the wheel and think your the cat's meow as an artist, then show me something, and try asking some real established sculpters in the buisness. Coming over here, your in for a mouthful of gak, and everyones own opinion.


I like the little "I'm 18 and I know it all..." routine, though. THAT's sure to win you fans.

Tyranids, any likenesses, and anything having to distinctly do with them is something that a multimillion doller business will look at as a potential threat.

Best example would be Blizzard.

In the IP world, you are dealing with an IDEA, and anything that threatens the idea is going to take a heat round or two in its defense. Look at it as taking money out of the idea holders mouth. If you were to make a tyranid that had anything even resembeling the parts, the look, the IDEA of the tyranid, I would be knocking on your door with a cease and desist order. REMEMBER, they have the copywrite. The copywrite is the thing that gives them the legal standing on the idea.

Examples of other IP properties, or even IDEA's would be-

The E bay Special titans

The guy that was building resin titans and got crushed for it

Incursion the Space hulk like game from West Wind

Warzone


Personally, if you think you have something to knock peoples socks off, go have fun and try. Statisticly, though You are not going to get very far making a "Variation, based on a theme."

Delephont wrote: If you create something then its yours....full stop.

Whao buddy. I'd love to live in your world. Really. I wish things were that clear cut with no BS in life................However...

Intellectual property law (International)

Intellectual property (IP) are legal property rights over creations of the mind, both artistic and commercial, and the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; ideas, discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets. The majority of intellectual property rights provide creators of original works economic incentive to develop and share ideas through a form of temporary monopoly. Although many of the legal principles governing intellectual property have evolved over centuries, it was not until the late 20th century that the term intellectual property began to be used as a unifying concept.

This is right out of a legal handbook, and the first and most basic principle!

Since this guy just associated his "new" creation along with GW & Tyranids in this post, he could be sued! According to the law, if someone created a new race, and fluff that associated with the 40k universe, legally if GW wanted, they can take it!

krazynadechukr2 wrote:Whao buddy. I'd love to live in your world. Really. I wish things were that clear cut with no BS in life................However...

Well, I guess you just had to make your point.....Perhaps you didn't have time to read the rest of my post?

After reading the thread....before posting my response.....I came to the conclusion that the OP was fully aware of I.P infringement, hell he made that clear in his first post.....so unlike some, I didn't find it usefull to ram the obvious back down his throat.

Let me guess this strait... Your going to copy some nids and change some parts making them better and more realistic, not sure if its illegal and dont care about GW atitudes towards IP?

Your right nids are not totally original but guess who has the IP rights about them?

I would say avoid playing with GW IP but from what I can read you have your mind made up so good luck... your going to need it.

As for the comment you can change a gw part to make it unrecognizable yaddayadda... thats as illegal as it gets.

I mean, check out this.

I tihnk it would be possible to sculpt some minis which show similarities to the Nids. I mean...big aliens are kind of a sci fi cliche anyways.

So yeah...Im curious to see what you will come up with!