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It depends - if you market your products or intend your models to be used as part of the warhammer system, it will be likely that GW will send you a cease and desist order, informing you that if you do not stop your activities, you face legal action. This can be any number of actions from royalties, shutting your operations, paying GW "damages", or a combination of all of the above. More than likely, they will do shut you down and force you to pay damages. They had an old agreement to receive royalties from the Company that made their old resin models prior to Forgeworld.

Unless you're really going to end up making GW a lot of money, they will shut you down. Only if you are able to create a new process for them to make their miniatures or create a new sculpt they want to mass produce, will you actually not get into a legal issues.

Yeah to be honest I agree with the people who say it is possible. Just under no circumstances use any vocablulary that can link them to GW models. GW gamers looking for cool alternatives or cheaper options will get what you are doing even if you don't overtly state it.

The ammount of model makers already doing what you plan on doing prove to me that it can be done, however like others said the examples of GW and other big companies suing smaller companies for what they percieved as IP infringements is proof that they can shut you down sometimes. I would observe what differentiates the succsesful knock offs from the ones that got sued and try and emulate it (imo use of language is a big thing).

Because remember, they don't actually haver to win the law suite they just have to drag it out long enough for it not to be worth it on your behalf anymore!

Anyone who thinks you're in trouble if you even mention GW IP or copy bits from GW should check out Chapterhouse Studios.
Here's a link to their bartertown Sub-Forum:

http://www.bartertown.com/trading/viewforum.php?f=78

Eric

If I say their name 3 times, will the IP terminators deepstrike into my house?

okay i completly understand everyone's point of veiws at this point and where their comming from, seeing as everyone here doesnt have a clear picture of the look im going for i think i deffinetly have to start to sketch out these ideas so that you guys can acctually take a look at what i mean.. im just not satisfied with the stupidity of these nids being made to be extremely adaptable and yet alot of them still look like they couldn't even properly function let alone fight in futuristic massive battles. I also do not claim that the alternative that im working on would be "original" because someone's originality can only really be measured by the connections they make between seemingly completly irrelevant sources or inspiration. Idealy i plan on making mine more like fancy alien like monstrous insects and bugs with changes made.
i consider alot of the concepts of these ever evolving nids slowed such as;
-the carnifex would have a really hard time standing on two legs and not falling
-raveners & trygon would not even be able to burrow with chimney's that size protruding from teir backs and such limb structures
-most tyranid necks would snap like a twig
-rippers couldnt even runwith such a big upper body and tiny tail
------------------If nids evolve so quickly and effortlessly why do they still look like their holding their waepons!??!?!
why are so many of have their arms bound by the weapon they are holding???
*IF* nids evolved and the rate they are said to in the fluff their main concern would be to be able to function so efficently that they would absolutely destroy everything that comes their way..or at least be able to function as efficiently as any other insect.My point is they don't even look the part., you could probably trip a carnifex off a cliff.

Cant say I agree with some comments but some are fair enough... I take nid concepts quite seriously and push concepts as far as I feel like it... but the starting point Jes goodwin created is nothing to sniff about.

Then again why not just create your own things?

MagickalMemories wrote:Anyone who thinks you're in trouble if you even mention GW IP or copy bits from GW should check out Chapterhouse Studios.

Chapterhouse are only fairly new, so the fact that they haven't been hit by GW legal yet doesn't really prove anything. Similar ventures in the past have often toddled along merrily for months before GW caught up with them.

What I'd be wondering, if I were tempted to go down a similar path and believed that the law were on my side, is why there aren't more businesses out there doing similar, given the demand that there is for such things. The fact that there isn't should suggest that there's something I'm missing...

Boss Julian wrote:Yeah to be honest I agree with the people who say it is possible. Just under no circumstances use any vocablulary that can link them to GW models. GW gamers looking for cool alternatives or cheaper options will get what you are doing even if you don't overtly state it.

The ammount of model makers already doing what you plan on doing prove to me that it can be done, however like others said the examples of GW and other big companies suing smaller companies for what they percieved as IP infringements is proof that they can shut you down sometimes. I would observe what differentiates the succsesful knock offs from the ones that got sued and try and emulate it (imo use of language is a big thing).

Because remember, they don't actually haver to win the law suite they just have to drag it out long enough for it not to be worth it on your behalf anymore!

This is pretty much it. They don't have to win it or even drag it out most of the time. When some dude making models out of his garage who damn well knows that he's making models for one of GW's games gets a cease and desist letter it's usually enough to get him to stop doing what he's doing without a fight. I'd like to see how many times GW actually took someone to court and thrashed them as hard as they could just because they decided to fight it. Judging by some of the smaller guys who are still around I'd venture to say that they don't do it too often. People have this ridiculous notion that money buys court decisions. To a point I suppose it does but I don't think that GW has enough of it to have any real influence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Anyone who thinks you're in trouble if you even mention GW IP or copy bits from GW should check out Chapterhouse Studios.

Chapterhouse are only fairly new, so the fact that they haven't been hit by GW legal yet doesn't really prove anything. Similar ventures in the past have often toddled along merrily for months before GW caught up with them.

What I'd be wondering, if I were tempted to go down a similar path and believed that the law were on my side, is why there aren't more businesses out there doing similar, given the demand that there is for such things. The fact that there isn't should suggest that there's something I'm missing...

I think that you're grossly overestimating the demand. I have a hard time believing that these little "out of the corner of the garage" studios are making any money. There aren't a whole lot of people out there who care enough to look past ebay or their FLGS to get the models that they want.

insaniak wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Anyone who thinks you're in trouble if you even mention GW IP or copy bits from GW should check out Chapterhouse Studios.

Chapterhouse are only fairly new, so the fact that they haven't been hit by GW legal yet doesn't really prove anything. Similar ventures in the past have often toddled along merrily for months before GW caught up with them.

What I'd be wondering, if I were tempted to go down a similar path and believed that the law were on my side, is why there aren't more businesses out there doing similar, given the demand that there is for such things. The fact that there isn't should suggest that there's something I'm missing...

Fair enough.

FWIW, though, I'm not referring to the fact that they're doing it, so much as I am the fact that they've invested the money to do their legal homework.
They've done the "lawyer" thing. They've looked into the applicable laws. They've done their research.

There IS a place in the market for "replacement" models and pieces, and there IS a way it can be done that will not allow "certain companies" to stomp you into the ground without a real fight.

Eric

as an answer to you're original post, I would just call GW and ask them. that is the only real way to make sure you won't get sued, or put in jail for copyright infringement...
then again, they have people who actually sculpt official models, so y don't you try to become one of those guys?

BIBBI wrote:as an answer to you're original post, I would just call GW and ask them. that is the only real way to make sure you won't get sued, or put in jail for copyright infringement...
then again, they have people who actually sculpt official models, so y don't you try to become one of those guys?

Neat, I don't think I've actually heard this argument before.

"There is a third way!"

malfred wrote:

BIBBI wrote:as an answer to you're original post, I would just call GW and ask them. that is the only real way to make sure you won't get sued, or put in jail for copyright infringement...
then again, they have people who actually sculpt official models, so y don't you try to become one of those guys?

Neat, I don't think I've actually heard this argument before.

"There is a third way!"

Yeah, tried this one a couple of years back. Got the stomp. However, I was not extraordinarily serious, really was looking to see what they would say. Not sure the guy I talked to (was a manager of some ilk, I dont recall) someone who would really know. So the point of this post? If you are serious and are going ot bother; then make sure you talk to Someone Who Knows. Not someone in Retail, or in Production; for a serious answer I would get my source as close to the legal team as possible.

BIBBI wrote:as an answer to you're original post, I would just call GW and ask them. that is the only real way to make sure you won't get sued, or put in jail for copyright infringement...

Talking to them might help... and might not. The guy behind Dreamforge, after receiving a cease and desist from GW for his resin not-Titans, supposedly spent some time talking to GW legal in order to find out what he needed to do to make the models acceptable to them... and when he made the changes they suggested and re-released the (not)titans, they still stomped on him.

Of course, that little story is the version of events that was posted int he Dreamforge forums, and may or may not be exactly what actually happened. Ultraforge don't seem to have had any similar problems... they got a letter from GW over one of their first releases, but appear to have had no problems after making the changes that GW legal asked for.


I think the main problem is that it's not really GW's job to help you produce models that suit their range. So they're more likely to be happy to let you release the models and then stomp on you than to help you produce models they approve of (since they won't) in the first place.

Cheese Elemental wrote:You should be OK until Jervis Johnson sees them. Then we all get little bits of you in our letterboxes.

This being what? Games Workshop's gift to their WD subscribers?


With this being a slightly grey area in the law I'm sure that GW would ask you to roll on it. On a 4+ you can sculpt anything you want

BIBBI wrote:or put in jail for copyright infringement...

That's not something you go to jail over.

I'd say that to be honest it probably is legal if its different enough (like micro arts studio orcs) but if GW sees it and thinks its similar enough they'll cripple you with legal bills regardless, even if you are'nt breaking the law and you won any legal challenge you made you'd be broke after

why would i be broke?
if i made them sufficently different so that they are not copies how could gw's debates even cost me anything if they are wrong?
what im going for is more of an insect/bug monster legion army and not so much stupid looking lizards with horse hooves and big scales.
I LOVE the nid background fluff & concept, not so muuch the model representations.

if they were radically different, then i'd say ye'd be fine.

ps. i can proove that the carnifex main back plate is not even close to being original, as i have see the exact same thing on the back of a real insect picture on the web.

how would i be able to display this pic on this specific discussion ?

It's probably not legal due to copyright infringement. However, it would take awhile for GW to target in on you, and they would probably just ask you to stop, instead of going though a long series of legal rammifications.

666 wrote:ps. i can proove that the carnifex main back plate is not even close to being original, as i have see the exact same thing on the back of a real insect picture on the web.

how would i be able to display this pic on this specific discussion ?

Errr, that doesn't matter? They made the original Model, they own the copyright. End of Discussion.

That's not something you go to jail over.

That's why the guys over a pirate bay are doing a year in jail. Also, remember the indictments when napster was big? They were arresting people all over the place.

But what do I know...

Kreedos wrote:

That's not something you go to jail over.

That's why the guys over a pirate bay are doing a year in jail. Also, remember the indictments when napster was big? They were arresting people all over the place.

But what do I know...

Actualy, the guys at The Pirate Bay are currently doing ZERO anything, as their are appeals pending regarding the Impartiality of the judge, which if founded, will result in an expurgation of any convictions and force a retrial.

Actualy, the guys at The Pirate Bay are currently doing ZERO anything, as their are appeals pending regarding the Impartiality of the judge, which if founded, will result in an expurgation of any convictions and force a retrial.

I guess I haven't kept up with it enough, last thing I heard they got like a year, and some piddley fine. They're laughing their asses off at this point.

Legal until you get caught. Just say you bought them from somebody on the net and lost the address if you do. Remember , if there is no smoking gun in your hand , deny, deny, deny.

k i dont think you guys realize just how many changes would be made..ill post some sketches of the ideas on here and have you guys tell me wether or not you think im copying their nids once i finish the last few weeks of this school year.

Chapterhouse studios - seems to be doing fine, even with their.. very close designs.

Scibor (http://www.coolminiornot.com/artist/Scibor) has been doing "Not Space Marine" knock-offs for years. I know that GW have tried to close him down, but they have failed because he doesn't use GW trademarks and he doesn't make models using GW bits. It has been argued he "press molds" stuff from GW bits but they've never been able to prove that. At least enough to get a Polish court to close him down.

A typical example of his "Not Space Marines" is

Kreedos wrote:

That's not something you go to jail over.

That's why the guys over a pirate bay are doing a year in jail. Also, remember the indictments when napster was big? They were arresting people all over the place.

But what do I know...

The whole Pirate Bay thing is a political trail, the punishment is even worse than what some murderers and rapist are getting in that country! If they pulled a thing like that off in a country lets say...Venezuela or China or something, the media and other governments would have screamed that the government is insane and that human rights aren't respected

Gwar! wrote:

666 wrote:ps. i can proove that the carnifex main back plate is not even close to being original, as i have see the exact same thing on the back of a real insect picture on the web.

how would i be able to display this pic on this specific discussion ?

Errr, that doesn't matter? They made the original Model, they own the copyright. End of Discussion.

This is complicated.

GW own the copyright of the complete model.

They do not own the copyright of the design of the backplate, since that is copied from nature.

They do own the copyright of their sculptural expression of the backplate.

To put this differently, if you copied a load of insect parts from photos, and made your own moulds of them, and designed and make a complete creature, it would be yours. But you couldn't take a mould off GW's backplate part and use that in your model.