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With 'Ard Boyz approaching in July, the ideas for a list keep spinning around my my head. This is what I have come up with so far:

HQ
Daemon Prince, Mark of Khorne, Wings
Daemon Prince, Mark of Khorne, Wings
Greater Daemon

Troops
10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Powerfist, Personal Icon
10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Powerfist, Personal Icon
11 lesser Daemons
10 lesser Daemons


Elites
6 Chaos Terminators, 5 combi-plasma, 1 powerfist, 1 powerfist with Icon of Khorne, I chainfist, One Champion, 1 combi-melta
6 Chaos Terminators, 5 combi-plasma, 1 powerfist, 1 powerfist champion, 1 chainfist, 1 Icon Of Khorne, 1 Combi melta
6 Chaos Terminators, 5 combi-flamer, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 1 champion, 1 Icon of Khorne, 1 heavy flamer

Heavy Support
Land Raider, Daemonic Possession, dozer blade
Land Raider, Daemonic Possession, dozer blade


This clocks in just under 2500

Land Raiders rush forward, and then the terminators and Daemons come to join the party. 5 champs and 5 Icons gives the greater daemon and the lesser daemons options about where to pop up and can let me bring my reinforcements in where I need them. Assuming that I am lucky enough for them to come in when I need. Anyway, your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Ok, so what are you going to use to bring in the Greater Daemon? A 61 point Skull Champion? Not a good choice. The DP's are ok. Your zerks I assume are going in the LR's are you are summoning the rest...

It seems very unreliable. You are taking a lot of termies and thats your punch, but what if they come in piecemeal and get slaughtered by Demolisher shots? Melta spammed?

Drop the Greater Daemon, like EzeKK said, it costs you 161 points, not at all worth it.
Drop One of the Lesser Daemon squads, or merge them into 1 squad of 20. Your choice.

Daemonic Posession on a land raider is iffy, but you seem to want to use it as a package delivery system, which is OK I guess.

Drop 2 squads of termies, Power up the remaining squad, use the rest of the points on more 'Zerkers.

Even if they come in piecemeal, with that many combi-weapons whatever they land in front of is going to die, or at least be messed up pretty bad. And with that said, the upgrades are such that there are 6 unique models. If they come in off Icons to support the berzerkers, then you can really take control of that part of the battlefield.

The greater demon isnt worth sacrificing an expensive berzerker champion for. Lesser demons arent that good. Drop them for more berzerkers or even some CSM with IoK (this will give you cheap champions to use for the greater demon but its still not that good an option).

You dont have enough anti-tank. Four lascannon at range isnt enough to deal with armour in 1500pt games, let alone 2500pt ones. To help with this all of your terminators should have combi-meltas instead of plasmas. They're almost as good against MCs and terminators but much much better at killing tanks.

Your terminators shouldnt really have champions. For the same points an extra powerfist is always better than an extra attack.

An extra squad of berzerkers would go a long way. If you drop the greater and lesser demons and re-arrange the terminators into two larger squads you'll have enough for annother landraider and another squad of berzerkers. Dropping the dozer blades also saves you points because they are largely unnecessary.

Overall i dont think this is a very powerful list. The lesser/greater demons, needless upgrades (like terminator champions and dozer blades) and lack of anti-tank really let it down for a tournament that encourages super-powerful armies. You will need to change it a fair bit if you want it to perform well.

What are the terminators doing? I thought you got them to give you access to more land raiders.

You can easily fit 5-6 Land Raiders in 2500 points.

5 Zerks in Land Raider
5 Zerks in Land Raider
5 Zerks in Land Raider
3 Termies in Land Raider
3 Termies in Land Raider
3 Termies in Land Raider

The above is only 1905 points, and alot stronger than the list you posted.

@Regwon,
I will think about taking more berzerkers instead of lesser daemons. The idea behind lesser daemons is if they come in late, I can bring them in where I need them. However you are right. For the same points cost I can take a rhino full of berzerkers. I might do this, but will play test it first. Even though they do not hit too hard, assault on the summon lesser daemons is very helpful in a pinch.

The reason they have combi-plasma is to take out big MC's that I couldnt otherwise deal with or lay waste to MEQ. Also, if they deep strike, I can shoot rear armor and kill most any vehicle other than LR and monolith. Thats the plan at least, it doesnt always work out that way.

As for the terminators, I know that a champion is not worth it for an extra attack, the champion is there to give the greater daemon options about where to come in. If my berzerkers take a few shots and my champions happen to die, I dont want them taking the greater daemon with them.

As for the land raiders, I took dozer blades because I couldn't take anything else to get up to 1500. I wanted to take another lesser daemon instead, but it put me 1 point over. And the terminators have seemingly random upgrades to make 6 unique models for wound allocation.

@ Whitedragon

I am well aware that CSM can very easily spam Land Raiders. That is not what I am trying to do with this list. For one, I only have two, and for another, the idea I have is different than simply taking 6 land raiders full of berzerkrs and terminators.

The berzerkers are thaere to deliver their combi-weapon shots. The flamer guys drop down and burninate something to death, and the plasma guys come in and either pop a tank or an MC. After that, they assault everything within reach.
Thats the idea at least. This is basically a 2000 point list with more terminators and lesser daemons tacked on, which might be a problem in my thinking, but , who knows.

You have to remember 2500pt games work differently to 2000pt ones. There is a lot more advantage in spamming good units, which is why you get obliterator/landraider/nob-biker/terminator spam in such high level games. You have the points to really make the most out of lots of those units. This makes it hard for a lot of more 'balanced' armies to be able to cope. Really if you want to do well you have to think about your list from the ground up. You will need more anti-tank incase you come up against LR-spam (which happens a lot in 'ard boyz) and more troops that can kill horde (really only lots of charging berzerkers can deal with hordes in khorne armies).

Also, wound-allocation tricks only really matter for multi-wound models where you can spread the wounds out. For single wound models it doesnt really matter because if you fail a save you still lose a guy, and you get to chose which guy takes the save in any case. Its not really worth spending extra points trying to do it, because it doesnt really work.

Finally please please take the MoK of your DPs. They will do so much better with warp time that its almost beyone belief.

Honestly, this list needs more guns. Your LRs won't be firing because they'll be too busy moving 12 before they get popped since they're the only thing that can get shot besides your DPs, which will die by turn 2 or 3 every single game. You need bodies. This list will do nothing before everything dies. It would be ok for KP since you have hardly anything in the list, but not every game runs that way. Run at least a Couple CSM squads if you're going to get really expensive stuff too to make up for the fact, and to add more special weapons (melta guns, anyone?)

It seems to me like DSing Terminators just aren't as valuaable in a large game like this as they would be in Land Raiders. I understand the trouble that a lack of Raiders could cause, but I think you are overestimating the strength of those terminators, especially on a low model count list like this.

Also, I thought 'Ard Boyz wasn't until August or September?

I would like to say that I think a Greater Daemon can be an excellent addition to the army. People knock it alot, but a T6, 4+ invul MC for 100 points is a pretty good deal. I would be wary of using it without something a little cheaper on points to bring it in on, though, especially with such a low model count.

If you Really like those termies, you can still drop one squad to power up the other 2, or give you more 'zerks. 2 Squads of 9 is better than 3 squads of 6 for KP missions, and 2 squads of 6 and 5 troops choices is better than 3 squads of 6 and 4 troops choices for objective missions, especailly considering half your troops are unreliable about even getting into the fight. Imagine yiu play a guard player (and you will, plenty of them) that uses an officer of the fleet, that could win the game for him against this list.

I don't really agree with that statement. I have found, for the purposes of holding objectives, that while more, smaller squads are more effective for holding multiple objectives, they are also exponentially easier to kill than fewer, bigger squads. I can agree that more troops are necessary, but a couple 6-man zerk squads and a couple lesser daemon squads won't hold objectives any better than a few larger, more survivable squads.

So Basically you're agreeing with me. 6 Terminators with the way he has them kitted out is a lot of points, 2 squads of 9 would be better, or another squad of berzerkers would be better.

I would add that you also don't have enough anti-heavy for 2500 points. I don't like deep striking terminators in the current meta-game for reasons other that quick, suicidal, vehicle kill using combi-meltas... I have been on the good side of this as my Oblits had fun "obliterating" nice fun clusters of deep striking terminators with their plasma cannons, and this is even more so with LR Executioners able to dump 5 blast markers on that cluster and that Executioner is also protected by a DH Inq with 2 Mystics = buh bye terminators. Yes this is pretty worse case, but my own experience using plasma cannons on terms make this a bad delivery system for non-termicide units. Then foot slogging termies is a no go since they are just too slow.. so terminators that need to stick need a land raider, imo.

You know that ard Boyz is no soft scores. You are dealing yourself a weaker hand by going for theme in a list. Khorne DPs got the short end of the stick compared to the other three. They are the cheapest but they are not nearly as strong as their counterparts. I like the Following combo:

Nurgle DP/wings, wind of Chaos
Lash Prince/wings

Use the lash prince to cluster enemy units and fry them with WoC. It's a great combo. I can see the value of a summoned greater daemon if you use a cheap champion that can get the GD where you need him. That's three models with a lot of high T wounds that dish it out in assault. Your opponent cannot ignore the big three and they help to take the pressure off the rest of your army so they can move in as support and finish up.

I am not a fan of Chaos terminators simply because they are not fearless. You have access to the best troops in the game and this is where those points should go. The more scoring units the better. Chaos cult Marines can do it all. Two squads of Berzerkers is all you need. I would also field Noise Marines and Plague Marines. They all work well together.

If you could field more landraiders it would help a lot. The Chaos version is cheap and that's the best thing it's got going for it compared to all the rest. Three would be very solid.

G

Don't forget that last year the 'Ard Boyz had wacky KP's, so those termies are worth more KP's then fearless cult troops would be.

Don't count out the warptime/Wind Tzeentchy prince either. 4+ Inv Save is sometimes better than T6 for the Nurgle Prince.

Ok, I have had a bit of time to re-think things. I think this list is much stronger:

HQ
Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Warptime
Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Warptime
Greater Daemon

Troops
10 khorne berzerkers, Champ, Personal Icon, Power weapon
10 khorne berzerkers, Champ, Personal Icon, Power weapon
6 lesser daemons
6 lesser daemons

Elites
5 Terminators, 5 combi-plasma, power fist champion, powerfist w/Icon of Khorne, 3 power weapon, Dedicated LR transport, Daemonic possession
5 Terminators, 5 combi-plasma, power fist champion, powerfist w/Icon of Khorne, 3 power weapon Dedicated LR transport, Daemonic possession


Heavy Support
Defiler, 2 CCW
Defiler, 2 CCW
Defiler, 2 CCW



Ok, so here is the Plan. Terminators start in reserve and their LR are deployed as normal. Khorne berzerkers hide behind them and embark on turn one. Use the LRs and screen the DPs. The defilers sit back and shoot, or slowly advance and shoot. Icons in the terminator squads give the Daemons options about where to arrive, as do the extra champs in the terminator squads. What about this? Any better?

The lesser demons aren't really doing you any favors. You would be better off taking 3x 4 man termi squads with combi-melta (you'll need the melta) and another rhino full of zerkers. Also, Give the zerkers a Powerfist so they can crack tanks/walkers. The power weapon just doesn't have as much utility, especially for 'ard boyz.

I used to *LOVE* LD. I no longer do. For 2 points more you can get something with a bolter and literally TONS more survivability that's still scoring. Plus Melta Guns, which never hurt an army list in 5th. I daresay slogging CSM are better than LD in this case. I wouldn't run a Greater unless you've got at least 5 squads with champ so when you make a sacrifice, you know you'll have a good spot that'll pay it's points back (in front of the Land Raider).

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:For 2 points more you can get something with a bolter and literally TONS more survivability that's still scoring.

literally TONS more survivability

literally

The revised list looks much better. The Defilers will definitely put your opponent on edge. How are you going to move them? move-fire BC-wait till next turn, or move-fleet-attempt to assault?

I also say drop the Greater and Lesser Daemons, as these points can buy you another Zerker squad, which can tie up an additional enemy squad and have a better chance at surviving and..... Rhinos? There are no Rhinos for your assaulty-goodness guys.. I foresee terrible things from this.. A heavy-shooty gunline army will pluck these guys limb from limb before the reach their lines, even if it was DoW, Zerkers don't get fleet, which hampers their effectiveness unless they're being heavily screened by the LR's until reaching lines.... and I'm sure you know, but use the LR's to screen the Defilers as well


Edit: and if the Landraiders are DEDICATED to the Termies, then the Termies are NOT in Reserves, and the Zerkers can NOT embark in the Landraider.
Edit-edit: and CC Defilers should never sit back and shoot. Defilers of any kind shouldn't just sit back. It would be blasphemic. Either rush them in asap, or move and shoot and get their steadily.

Amy, while you are right that the termies can't deploy in reserves if they have a dedicated raider, the Berzerkers can still embark in them - they just can't start the game embarked in them.

They can't embark until the Termies disembark though, that's what I'm saying. As the termies take up 2 spaces (similar to the Ogryn's Bulky rule for Chimeras) and there are 5 termies, thus filling out a Landraider.

I looked this up and never found and answer. WHere does it say that If I take a dedicated LR transport that my terminators cannot start in reserve? The only limitation I saw was that the only thing that could start in them was the terminators, and that they do not have to. I need to find this, because if the terminaotrs cant start in reserve and still have a LR, then this list ides does not work.

They can start in reserve. Just looking at the rules ("Models in terminator armor may always start the game in reserve.") and the rules for transports saying that models do no have to start in their transports, it can be deduced.

And how the hell is leaving something with a 72" range template at the back "blasphemic?" That makes no sense. Just pray for table quarters every game and tuck it away. It might even survive then, as opposed to bringing it forward, where it WILL die.

And Rhinos always. Just always. Bonus protection is sooo worth it. At the very least:
Killing infantry - roll to hit, roll wound
killing a vehicle - roll to hit, roll to glance/pen, roll to actually do anything to it
That's a bonus roll for the other guy to whiff on.

Yeah, footslogging Assault troops is a bad idea. I agree that letting the Defilers hang back is a good tactic, but then you might as well let them keep the reaper autocannons and such, since they won't be getting as much out of their CC weapons.

With The terminators in reserve, the berzerkers will start the game deployed behind the Land Raiders and them embark first turn. Now I have Land Raiders full of Berzerkers. With the Defilers hanging back, I will probably give them Reaper Auto Cannon, Like you guys said. If I drop all the daemons, and the Icons and champs designed to bring them in, I can fit another squad of berzerkers in RHino and then still have about 50 points to work with. I will think on this. But I do like the idea of suddenly having a scoring troops choice appear from the warp and take an objective...

Personally I like the two DPs and GD. If it were me I'd take one lash prince. I would drop the lesser daemons. I can see why you are taking the termie/for the landraiders... I think it is a good idea. I don't know if you need three defilers though. You could drop one for a vindicator with possession. The lash prince would really come in handy with three large blast templates. I think you are on the right track.

G

So, I have now play tested this list twice. Once against Dark Eldar raider spam and wyches, and another time against mechanized Black Templars. To make a long battle report short, I got OWNED! I got absolutely SHUT DOWN by both lists. It was ridiculous how EPICALLY this list failed to do ANYTHING to either army. However, I believe most of the problem lies in my terrible tactics and play style during those games. Even with that said, The army needs revision. Here is what I plan to play test Today:

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Wings, Mok
Daemon Prince, Wings, Mok
Greater Daemon

This combo has never not paid off for me, so I am sticking with it. However playtesting it might show me that HQ spam is not a good idea in "ard boyz, we will see.

Troops
10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, PW, Personal Icon
10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, PW, Personal Icon
5 lesser daemons
5 lesser daemons

Berzerkers pack a punch once I get them into the LRs. I didn't give them PF because I didn't have the points. small lesser daemons squads help out to take objectives of help out a bit in assault. I am considering making points for Rhinos, even though My goal is to get them into the LRs turn 1.

Elites:
4 terminators, 4 combi-plasma, 2 PF
5 terminators, 5 combi-plasma, 3 PF LR dedicated transport, DP
5 Terminators, 5 combi-plasma, 3 PF LR dedicated transport, DP

Deepstriking fun, or walk in depending on the army I fight. Shoot up an MC, a squad, or rear armor of a tank.

Heavy Support:
Defiler, Dual CCW
Defiler, Dual CCW
Defiler, Dual CCW

This brings me in at 2500. The plan: Sit and shoot until the terminators come in and weaken some part of the enemy army. At that point, charge in with LRs and berzerkers and DP assault. It needs testing, I know, but I think it could work. But as always, your thoughts on the revised list would be very helpful.

I think in your further playtesting you'll find that you need more supporting fire. And please, please, please just go with Warptime on the princes. No matter what fictional god's name is typed next to a power, you can always pretend it's something else.