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Hi guys,

Guess this is news

We are wanting to make some cool sculpting to use with GWs rhino kits, in order to do so we had to create some original and new Rhino Door Templates to do the sculpting on (cant use GW models to sculpt on and then sale).

This is what we have come up with, we are already producing these in resin, I think we will offer them on the site, but Im not sure if plain old rhino doors will sell? They are different from the ones in the kit, so some people may like the variety.

They look very nice, my only concern is GWs models seem to be different sizes depending on the country, its very minute, but I have seen 1-2 mm differences.

In any case, these are the 3d shots, these are some new doors and front panels for you Rhino fans out there, and you can look foward to seeing some new sculpts on them in the future.

Have fun!
Nick
Chapterhouse Studios

I would really like to see a more armoured front panel to use on the predator.

I would like to see panels with themes. Like an Omega theme, Iron fist, theme. Maltese Cross theme. Winged sword theme. Howling wolf theme. Space Dragon theme. Etc. ;-)

i liek these they would work well with arbties, look more hardy, any cahnce we ould get some hooks on the side for hanging prisoner or osmthign, i like what i see.

also ay chance of more enclosed stormbolter turrets kinda like the fw enforcer just wihtuo the big back bit

Give this man a better keyboard please!

Definetly all good ideas.

I would like to use the omega symbol, but seeing as its a upside down omega, i am not sure it is public domain, will find out today.

The other ideas all have merit, we know for certain we will have a dragon themed rhino, wolves, runic (see inquisition), and a falcon one.

If you REALLY want something badly send us a good detailed sketch, and if its marketable to the masses, you may well likely see it done and have a free kit as a thank you!

Good idea on the Predator front panel, it is armor 13 and has the same panel as a rhino...

Nick

The "Omega" symbol is definitely in the public domain.

It has been around for quite some time...

Upside down Omega?

I would be quite happy with a Omega symbol that could be stuck onto a tank, similar to the current GW Immolator hatch badges..

that way anyone who would be interested in them, could orient the symbolt themselves .. upside down, right side up, or even pointing to the left.

I'd really like to see some Rhino bits that modify the Rhino to look a little like the old Rhino – i.e. round doors on the sides, and a front plate like this:


You'd have to make some concessions to the new design, but I think a nod to the old one would be cool.

Scott-S6 wrote:I would really like to see a more armoured front panel to use on the predator.

Seconded. And it wouldn't have to be a completely new front panel, it could easily be some additional plating that goes ontop the existing front plate.

And some extra armor would be nice too. I'm not crazy about any of the FW styles.

Will GW allow a third party to make parts deisgned for their kits? Kowing their legal department, you won't be able to market them that way.

i've been itching to start a dragon themed marine army (using space wolf rules) and went to your site from warseer (before your thread was stupidly removed) to check out the shoulder pads. if you're still doing salamander/reptile themed marine accessories, would the chest design (winged dragon head) from the attached pic be something you'd be interested in doing? it's obviously not gw (just some web fan art i found) so no IP problems there.

Without a license from GW, you cannot make add-on parts, upgrades, etc. that are based in any way on GW designs. However, what you can do is sell completely built models and those models can have conversions done to them. Example, you can't design add-on parts for a Rhino that follow GW door designs for that kit, but you can build a Rhino with some "cool extras" on it and sell the fully assembled, completed model.

That picture is copyrighted to Nachomon on DeviantArt.

BrassScorpion wrote:Without a license from GW, you cannot make add-on parts, upgrades, etc. that are based in any way on GW designs. However, what you can do is sell completely built models and those models can have conversions done to them. Example, you can't design add-on parts for a Rhino that follow GW door designs for that kit, but you can build a Rhino with some "cool extras" on it and sell the fully assembled, completed model.

The issue isn't as simple as that. Under copyright law this will be considered a derivative work. Here is a good summary of the main legal issues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work this however should not be taken as advice or be considered completely accurate. The whole thing hinges on the degree of creativity they will add to the original work.

Another aspect to the issue is proportionality. That while they'd be making something to add to a Rhino kit, it would not in fact replicate GW's original and copyrighted work in its entirety. It is the whole and complete model that has the copyright, not each individual component. There would half to be a substantial duplication of the Rhino.

A final issue is the financial impact on GW. While not necessary for GW to protect their copyright, the impact this has on GW would be considered. The fact that this would help their sales as it requires anyone using these panel sets to purchase a rhino would be in these sculptors favor, if they did lose any law suit.

Their are ways to avoid problems. Make the panels more generic, such that the way they interface on the model is only by simple geometry. Like rather than making just a door with the hinges, make a rectangular panel that covers that space between the two exhausts and has embedded in it your door, or with a door shape entirely new. The same sort of suggestion could be made for the top hatch. Then it becomes a matter of avoid GW's copyright iconography. Don't market them as add-ons specifically meant for the rhino, maybe sell it an add on kit to make modern tank models into "scifi-gothic."

GW cannot copyright physical interface. If you make a door that fits exactly in / over the Rhino cutout, GW has no leg to stand on. It's a physical shape that is a necessary, non-design copyrightable element.

Secondly, GW cannot copyright generic shapes. Round doors are not copyrightable.

If you detail the doors, using non-GW / generic elements (handles, hinges, rivets), then again, there's nothing for GW to do here, either.

So if you make a nice-looking round door that sits directly on top of where the current Rhino door sits, GW can't do anything about it. It's a circle that covers a rectangle.


For related precedent, see the replacement IG heads. They use the same non-copyrightable physical head socket. And the designs are original. So GW has to leave it be.


Physical compatibility isn't copyright infringement. Lego case law is very clear on this, which is why they've been moving away from basic bricks for over a decade.

aka_mythos wrote:

Their are ways to avoid problems. Make the panels more generic, such that the way they interface on the model is only by simple geometry. Like rather than making just a door with the hinges, make a rectangular panel that covers that space between the two exhausts and has embedded in it your door.....

I think this is the best way to go. The panel could fit onto the GW Chassis, and those who don't want to use it 'stock' can cut out the part they want and the custom fit it into their existing model.

Chapterhouse, you could simply cast several Omega symbols, and sell it with the rhino updrade kit. Then it would be up to your customers whether or not they glued it on right side up or upside down. Just a thought.

I've always thought a system with maybe a peg and attachable 3d symbols would be cool on GW stuff. That way you could make the same base things and include whatever symbols you want. This also means that you happen to be including an Omega symbol, and it's not your fault if people place it upside down. Especially if you offered an Alpha symbol and other things along those lines.

Edit: or the post above me could have said the same thing already.

hammerofulric wrote:Will GW allow a third party to make parts deisgned for their kits? Kowing their legal department, you won't be able to market them that way.

It would be very hard legally for them to stop anyone from labeling something "Rhino tank door and armored panels". Rhino and tank is public domain.

Considering we have made a completely new door and panel to sculpt on they cant say we are copying designs or any chapter icons. And as far as i know, noone can legally own a door panel.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
All very good points guys, Ive been trying to get my sculptor to do some icons with small pins on the back so all you have to do is drill small hole of cut the pins off and glue it.

Anyone want to volunteer any concept art for a predator front panel? I promise the winning sketch we produce a resin kit once it is cast as a prize .

We are in the clear on using our rhino doors since they are fresh designs created by us.

P.S. We have to be VERY careful on fan art, we wont use it unless we know for sure who produced it and we get permission.

Everyone forgets that it really doesn't matter if these doors violate IP laws. GW will threaten a lawsuit, send a cease and desist order, and possibly take you to court. It's big corporate lawyers vs. the little guy. They are counting on your failure to fund a defense.

I don't really give a monkeys about GW fat cats, maybe they should bring out their own resin casting kits.

The doors are cool, would be like the forge world stuff but with your own designs, i just want to know how you cast them doors ??? could make some cool armoured bunkers like that, like the ones out of the starship trooper's 3 (or maybe its part 2,) movie.
Or make a "cargo 8", mega.

It's not as simple as that...

Well, no, I didn't provide a fully detailed legal document explaining it, but my original post is essentially correct and summarizes the situation nicely without taking up hundreds of pages. You can sell completed, fully assembled models that either are GW kits or use parts from GW kits. If you have custom parts on those kits that are not copies of copyrighted material, that is also acceptable.

You can look online and see for yourself what people are selling that does not incur a lawsuit from GW. If you produce a Rhino, Leman Russ, etc. and sell that, you'll be sued. If you assemble a GW Rhino, Leman Russ, etc. existing kit and sell that, it's perfectly legal. Thousands of already built or built and painted GW models are sold all the time every day on eBay and other sites with no lawsuits. However, if you manufacture something that copies GW IP and try to sell it, you will be sued.

Judges are known for throwing out cases of frivilouse lawsuits and reward fees to the defendants.

Let us worry about the legality of the items (we have a slush fund for it), and a Cease and Desist is basically a notice and nothing else. We respect GWs legal rights and try to work with those rights in mind. If GW wants to throw its legal weight around, they can try to do so, but they havent, so lets not all be defeatist.

Luckily Dakka isnt owned by GW like Warseer and BnC (they delete any fan post about our site, chapterhouse studios is a bad word on those forums).

So we will continue to ask your guys opinions and get ideas and post our new stuff here and support the forum as much as we can.

We had to design the doors in 3DS Max, with precise measurements like the regular Rhino. We then had them prototyped in plastic and now we sell the regular undecorated doors as well as use them as our sculpting templates for future Rhino accessory Kits.

Amen Brother Chapterhouse!

Why does it seem like everytime you post a new item you're making, you get the "GW IP" slap on the wrist as though you're not already aware of the potential issues at hand? Leave it be already peeps!

BTW, I guess if I want some space elf stuff, I'm going to have to send some drawings in? I'm not the best at drawing concept art I'll have you know...

Sketches help fuel our ideas, so we may build upon something you start with a little help

BrookM wrote:That picture is copyrighted to Nachomon on DeviantArt.

yeah, it's about as copyrighted as everything else he's doing. making a chest with a similar dragon head is the same thing as making a shoulderpad with a big capital I on it, which he does. both are inspired by other people's work but not a violation of the copyright. if he were to make an identical posed figure, that might be a different story. either way, thanks anyways for spending your free time to help dash my hopes.

Its the same shoe we are in with making lesser known chapter shoulder pads, GW may never do them but they did art in some books, does that make it original or derivative is the question.

Hey ChapterHouse

I just noticed you are in Dallas. Do you play at any of the local shops? I would love to come by sometime and checkout your stuff in person.

Neil