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pg 69:
Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal. However, if the ramming tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle, the collision is resolved as follows:

pg 71:
The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models move move into contact with the vehicles hull, its base, or both.

pg 11
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or its hull)..

If i declare a ram move in the general direction of a Valkyrie, what happens?
I'm not allowed to move through the space occupied by the Valk (pg 11), but a Ram does not occur unless I come into contact with a vehicle (pg 69) which is defined as contacting the hull (pg71).
Would the answer be different if I was ramming with a normal tank or a skimmer tank?

Any idea?

The rules seem to say that you move under the valk unless there is physical contact. You ignore the base for measuring purposes, but you still can't move through it. So you stop 1" away from the valk's base.

That sounds like a strange rule interaction.

This is different only because of the different base.

That would be some very Velveeta modeling for the advantage (not to mention unstable), because unless I'm mistaken that standard base does not put the Valkyrie more then 2-3" off table. even the lowly Rhino could hit it. that having been said you would still get a 4+ "save" [for lack of a better term] to stop it, unless the Rammer were a skimmer as well.

The Valk's base is 5" in height. Some vehicles can pass underneath.

edit: Skimmers dodge Rams on a 3+ btw.

I was under the impression that you cannot pass underneath anything. ANY skimmer can choose to try to evade by rolling on a 3+.

There is also a rule stating that when not in the movement phase the model ALWAYS counts as being on the ground. It has to land you know?

Oh, Draco got that already.

"Note"
I don't think you are allowed to post rules directly like you have, not sure though.

Wrexasaur wrote:I was under the impression that you cannot pass underneath anything.

You're under a mistaken impression. The rules prevent you from moving through the volume of space represent by the model, not the volume of space underneath it.

I have a greater daemon of Khorne with wings with spread out horizontally about three inches above the table (one of the old dreadnought models can stand under the wings) and he doesn't get an exclusion zone from his wings. That would be just crazy.

solkan wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:I was under the impression that you cannot pass underneath anything.

You're under a mistaken impression. The rules prevent you from moving through the volume of space represent by the model, not the volume of space underneath it.

I have a greater daemon of Khorne with wings with spread out horizontally about three inches above the table (one of the old dreadnought models can stand under the wings) and he doesn't get an exclusion zone from his wings. That would be just crazy.

What do wings have to do with it though? You only count the torso, and legs for anything. That is how you maintain fair conversions.

Infantry and vehicles are completely different.

Vendetta wings may be a different matter altogether, but they still BLOS at certain angles.

Wrexasaur, my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the rules which prevents one model from passing under another model, or under part of another model, if it can physically do so. It doesn't make any difference whether the model in question is a monstrous creature or a vehicle, your "impression" still has no relationship to the actual rules.

Wrexasaur wrote:I was under the impression that you cannot pass underneath anything.

This is not explicitly prohibited anywhere in the rule book. Through using movement rules normally there are some models that can pass beneath the valk .

ANY skimmer can choose to try to evade by rolling on a 3+.

True, but the contact has to occur. Dodging does not move either model either. Its basically a "save" versus the Ram. If the Ram misses, you wouldn't need to Dodge.

There is also a rule stating that when not in the movement phase the model ALWAYS counts as being on the ground. It has to land you know?

Actually this is not true:

BGB p.71 wrote:If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed. [...] Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions.

"Note"
I don't think you are allowed to post rules directly like you have, not sure though.

You can relevent passages when debating an issue, but don't provide someone with an entire rule.

From page 71 of the small rule book, probably the same page for the normal one as well:

"Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move - it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!"

The other rule about not being able to remove it from the base is clearly just there to avoid any confusion with the vehicle being imoblised or wrecked as it mentions when it says:

"If a skimmer is imobilised or wrecked, its base is removed" Then goes on to explian about what to do if it is impossible to do so before returning to the actual rule with: "Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions"

So, yes, if you have been reading that page the rules about it kind of contridict themselves in the next paragraph following its introduction. But, it also says that a skimer can be rammed as normal but the controller rolls a D6, on a 1 or 2 it proceeds as normal on a 3+ it will miss and the ramming vehicle will pass underneath.

So yes the Valkyrie can be rammed. If any arguements come up during a game roll for it, but according to the rules it can be rammed.

Dracos is Right, Wrexasaur is Wrong, and I Like Banana Pudding.

I quoted page 11 for this reason. It explicitly prohibits movement of models:

pg 11
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or its hull)..

Forget the Valkyrie being a million inches tall for a moment. Take for instance, a normal skimmer (a Piranha) and a suitably small unit (a ripper swarm). The rippers aren't allowed to move through the space underneath (or finish its move underneath) the piranha, and neither is the piranha allowed to end its move on top of the ripper swarm.

Wings of a monstrous creature, or whatever, do not count: you only take into account the BASE or HULL of the model. So you may fit a dreadnaught underneath the wings of your bloodthirster but you certainly wouldn't try to put it between the daemon's feet.

I may not finish my move with my tank underneath the Valkyrie.

But, I must move the full movement distance during a ram.

In order to be stopped, I must make contact with [the hull of] the Valkyrie.

Trasvi, you are wrong. If the Ripper can fit under the Piranha while remaining more than 1" away from the Hull and Base in all dimentions, it can go there. Likewise, a Tank can do that to a Valk, provided they remain more than 1" away from the Hull and Base in all Dimensions.

So they can ram it if they get in contact with the base then?

I'm curious how it would be possible to move over a base whilst staying one inch away from it?

Trasvi wrote:I'm curious how it would be possible to move over a base whilst staying one inch away from it?

I never said you could move over a base, you casn move arund it just fine. You can move to 1" of the hull or base. So, if there is 1" of clearance between the top of the Rippers, the Bottom of the Pirhanas and you stay more than 1" from the base, you can move "under" them all you want.

n0t_u wrote:So they can ram it if they get in contact with the base then?

No, the RAW conclusion is that you would stop 1 inch short of the base of the Valkyrie as you can neither contact it nor move through the space that it occupies.

Gwar! wrote:

Trasvi wrote:I'm curious how it would be possible to move over a base whilst staying one inch away from it?

I never said you could move over a base, you casn move arund it just fine. You can move to 1" of the hull or base. So, if there is 1" of clearance between the top of the Rippers, the Bottom of the Pirhanas and you stay more than 1" from the base, you can move "under" them all you want.

Just to clarify: you are saying that if there is 1+" between the top of the rippers and the bottom of the piranhas hull, and 1+" between the bottom of the rippers' base and the top of the piranha's base, then they can move underneath the Piranha?
If that is what you're saying, then i disagree because:
- There is no insinuation that models other than jump infantry can make their movement in the air (and jump infantry could simply jump over the piranha so, moot point)
- This would (by my reading) go against pg11: you may not move into or through the space occupied by another model, represented by its base or hull.
- This would allow you to move any models over enemy models (provided you held them at least one inch above the enemy model).

If you are saying you can move around the edges of the Piranha's base, then yes, of course you can.

(edit: formatting)

RAW also say that a skimmer lands at the end of movement, but isn't removed from its base unless wrecked or imobilised.

Interpretation comes to the conclusion that that rule is to avoid confusion about what is wrecked or imoblised with what is normal.

I'd say tanks would ram it as normal regardless of its fancy new base. The rules about this kind of contradict themselves by basically saying it can be rammed, but at the same time it cannot.

But, you should probably roll for it before the game starts.

Skimmers do not land.
They must be "placed back on the table".
This is to stop the groups of 10yr olds at my club who thought that (if they kept good track) they could have aerial dogfights with skimmers by remembering that they were actually hovering 24 inches above the table.

Trasvi wrote:

pg 69:
Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal. However, if the ramming tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle, the collision is resolved as follows:

pg 71:
The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models move move into contact with the vehicles hull, its base, or both.

pg 11
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or its hull)..

If i declare a ram move in the general direction of a Valkyrie, what happens?
I'm not allowed to move through the space occupied by the Valk (pg 11), but a Ram does not occur unless I come into contact with a vehicle (pg 69) which is defined as contacting the hull (pg71).
Would the answer be different if I was ramming with a normal tank or a skimmer tank?

Any idea?

I think it's most important here to recognize that the rules are more like guidelines. Do you think that a rhino could magically fly 30 meters into the air and slam into a flying vehicle? No. Do you think a Land Speeder could? Sure. Logic is often better than blindly following the rules... Unless, indeed, you're looking for a loophole, but that's just n00bish.

Trasvi wrote:Skimmers do not land.
They must be "placed back on the table".
This is to stop the groups of 10yr olds at my club who thought that (if they kept good track) they could have aerial dogfights with skimmers by remembering that they were actually hovering 24 inches above the table.

Alright thanks for clearing that up then. I'm now on the "no you can't ram it, unless it's on the table and off it's base" side

So, you can always ram a skimmer? It is on the table in your movement phase right? If it is on the table the hull is totally rammable, at least that is where I was going with this, and what I had been informed of before.

It is on it's stand on the table. You don't take a skimmer off it's stand at the end of your movement phase.

In the case of the Valk, it is probably to high to ever be rammed by most vehicles. It is one of the benefits of the high stand. You are certainly welcome to discuss house ruling it with your opponent (which he should be amenable to unless he wants you to hold him to the RAW that units in a Valk can't disembark to flat ground), but by RAW your ramming vehicle would have to be tall enough to contact the hull where it sits on the stand which is sitting on the table.

We've been ignoring making up, (even by RAW) special rules for a valkrie just because they made it's flight stand high. We are playing it that valkies, (and any other skimmer using the new flightstand),

-can unload troops normally, measuring from the base, not the hull.
-the model is assaulted using it's base.
-the models firing is measured from it's guns
-LOS to the model is TLOS, and measurement to it's hull for shooting at it is the actual distance.
-You ram it like you would any other skimmer, but use it's base for contacting it, and it get's it's 3+ avoidance.

Yes, house rules, and may or may not be RAW, as GW intended, or how they will FAQ it. But it's how we are 'Making Da' Call'.

It's saving time on arguements, the models for skimmers look good on the board, and we're having fun. If people go elsewhere for tourneys, they just ask the TO how they play it at his tourney.

I say you can still Ram it, just like I say troops can still disembark. Sounds like a more 'playable' set of rules.



As for models going 'under' a skimmer.

Gwar! wrote:So, if there is 1" of clearance between the top of the Rippers, the Bottom of the Pirhanas and you stay more than 1" from the base, you can move "under" them all you want.

Not quite. You measure distance from the base of the rippers, so you need 1" clearence from the base to the bottom of the hull. Of course, models can't occupy the same space, so the ripper body would still have to fit under the hull, though it only needs a .0001" clearence. (approximately )

Trasvi wrote:

n0t_u wrote:So they can ram it if they get in contact with the base then?

No, the RAW conclusion is that you would stop 1 inch short of the base of the Valkyrie as you can neither contact it nor move through the space that it occupies.

Gwar! wrote:

Trasvi wrote:I'm curious how it would be possible to move over a base whilst staying one inch away from it?

I never said you could move over a base, you casn move arund it just fine. You can move to 1" of the hull or base. So, if there is 1" of clearance between the top of the Rippers, the Bottom of the Pirhanas and you stay more than 1" from the base, you can move "under" them all you want.

Just to clarify: you are saying that if there is 1+" between the top of the rippers and the bottom of the piranhas hull, and 1+" between the bottom of the rippers' base and the top of the piranha's base, then they can move underneath the Piranha?
If that is what you're saying, then i disagree because:
- There is no insinuation that models other than jump infantry can make their movement in the air (and jump infantry could simply jump over the piranha so, moot point)
- This would (by my reading) go against pg11: you may not move into or through the space occupied by another model, represented by its base or hull.
- This would allow you to move any models over enemy models (provided you held them at least one inch above the enemy model).

If you are saying you can move around the edges of the Piranha's base, then yes, of course you can.

(edit: formatting)

Doesnt matter for the piranha, because as Gwar mentioned, you can move around the base or park next to it, provided you are 1" away from it or the hull, good news is, 1" is at the edge of the hull of a piranha so you would never be under any part of it. As for the ramming, you would have to be able to ram a valk, no matter how high it is, because as a skimmer its standard to all the other vehicle rules. If you were to say that it couldnt be rammed, then you would also be saying it cant drop troops, because the ground is more than 2" away from the hull which has come up before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are able to attack it, ram it, drop troops with it, just like any other standard skimmer..

Maybe I'll just model my ork battlewagons with sky hooks and/or deff rollas in the sky!

gameandwatch wrote:
Doesnt matter for the piranha, because as Gwar mentioned, you can move around the base or park next to it, provided you are 1" away from it or the hull, good news is, 1" is at the edge of the hull of a piranha so you would never be under any part of it. As for the ramming, you would have to be able to ram a valk, no matter how high it is, because as a skimmer its standard to all the other vehicle rules. If you were to say that it couldnt be rammed, then you would also be saying it cant drop troops, because the ground is more than 2" away from the hull which has come up before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are able to attack it, ram it, drop troops with it, just like any other standard skimmer..

Moving around the base is just a normal part of the game and isn't in any way relevant. I'm talking about whether you can move a model OVER the base of another model.
As far as I am aware, skimmers, jump infantry and jetbikes are the only models that are allowed to move over enemy models. If you are saying that a model can actually walk over an enemies base, then pg11 says that they can't, no matter how tall the models are respective to each other (be it a Ripper Swarm or Carnifex moving past a Piranha or Valkyrie).

And, this is treating the skimmer exactly like any other skimmer. Although I don't personally agree (and I created this topic just as another example of where Valkyrie rules don't 'make sense'), treating the Valkyrie like any other model means:
- you embark/disembark within 2 inches of an access point.
- you ram by coming into contact with the hull of an enemy vehicle.

It just so happens that the Valkyrie is the only model so far that has the hull so far removed from the board that this becomes an issue.

Personally I believe that the Valkyrie rules need a serious errata to interact with the game in an 'intuitive' way. Perhaps the easiest way to do with would be to come up with a universal set of rules covering the 'High Flight' stand. But this entire post was just to illustrate another 'flaw' in the Valkyrie rules.

I would yes you can ram it. I am just wondering are your going to paint a Confederate Flag on the top, model the Duke boys in it, a handy dirt ramp on the board and scream "YEEEEEEHAAAAW!!!" everytime you try?

High Commissar Biffsmack wrote:Do you think that a rhino could magically fly 30 meters into the air and slam into a flying vehicle? No.

YES!
If someone can give me a convincing explanation for how a torpedo boat could torpedo an airborne helicopter, I will accept a similarly convincing explanation for a rhino ramming an airborne Valkyrie.