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I went to a tournament this weekend and several rule debates occured. Since I am usually asked to be the RL at our LGS, I just wanted to know how you guys interpretted the folowwing:

Warptime, Codex: Chaos Space Marines: "...may re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."

I never though someone would argue on this, but never read the rule in details until then: Does this mean if the player chooses to reroll to hit rolls, he must re-roll them all, sucessful and un-sucessful ones? Save question applies towards rerolling to wound...


Power of the Machine Spirit "... may fire 1 weapon more than normally allowed..."

My questions are: Assuming the LR uses smoke launcher it may still fire 1 weapon? If the LR is shaken/stunned, it may still fire 1 weapon? If it moves 12" it may still fire one weapon?


Thank you for your help.

SkizO wrote:Warptime, Codex: Chaos Space Marines: "...may re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."

I never though someone would argue on this, but never read the rule in details until then: Does this mean if the player chooses to reroll to hit rolls, he must re-roll them all, sucessful and un-sucessful ones? Save question applies towards rerolling to wound...

Yes. When it says all, it does mean all.

Ghaz wrote:

SkizO wrote:Warptime, Codex: Chaos Space Marines: "...may re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."

I never though someone would argue on this, but never read the rule in details until then: Does this mean if the player chooses to reroll to hit rolls, he must re-roll them all, sucessful and un-sucessful ones? Save question applies towards rerolling to wound...

Yes. When it says all, it does mean all.

I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with you on this.

Most rerolls apply to individual rolls, rather than sets of rolls. I would also suggest that 'may' applies to each roll individually. This is implicitly stated on p2 of the rule book - "... - pick up the dice you wish to reroll and roll them again."

If you dont agree then other abilities that allow rerolls, such as twin-linked and 'Doom' (not fortune as it does specify any) also require all the dice to be rerolled, which doesnt seem right.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Check the wording before you claim that just because one rule allows you to choose which dice you reroll all of them do.

Regwon, the rule does state reroll all to hit and and all to wound. The only other way that I would think that it would be permissible to reroll only the ones you want are with the description "re-roll all misses" (such as twin-linked has if I remember correctly) or some other similarly written rules.

And your right. It does state that you may reroll all to hits and to wounds, but you also have the option of not rerolling all of the to hits as well. This comes into play in several of the codicies as well such as the Tyranid. If I remember right, it states something to the effect that a brood may choose the certain biomorphs for its brood. While it states that the brood may take them, the whole brood has to take them for the squad to be played correctly in a game.

Edit: And as far as PotMS comes into play, I'm not familiar with that so I'm just going to leave it for wiser minds to discuss here.

Edit #2: The exact wording for twinlinked is (pg 32 BRB) "A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon of the type, but to represent their fusillad of fire, you may reroll the dice to hit if you miss (including twin-linked blast weapons).

That's correct. You either reroll all of the dice or you reroll none of them. There's no option to only reroll some of the dice.

Actually I find that very interesting and wish I had the codex to see the context of that entry. Because according the the OP, it states that warptime allows the person who has it to "...may re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."

Now does this mean that if they do one, they have to do the other, or are they independant of each other. I am assuming that they are independant, but who knows. CSM always confuse me anyways... lol

Well if the consensus is that you must re-roll all or nothing then the strictest interpretation of the rules would indicate that if you choose to re-roll you must re-roll both. If you choose to re-roll all rolls to hit then you must also re-roll all rolls to wound.

Would this also suggest that if you chose not to re-roll hits you cannot re-roll wounds because you must do both?

Then this would seem to be a situation where if you choose to use warptime then you roll all the dice to wound, only to have to pick them up and roll them again. In which case why bother including the text about re-rolling to wound as you dont have the choice anyway.

If the text said 'and/or' then you would be able to do one or both, but absolute RaW means you cant.

Thats a good point about that Regwon. Like I said, I'm apt to believe that it was intended as an either/or rule in that you can do one without the other. But you bring up a great point about why its an either/or in terms of "all to-hit and all to-wounds."

But Regwon, RAW says May re-roll, not Must.

But yes, In the rulebook it even says that a re-roll must re-roll ALL the dice.

Cryonicleech wrote:But Regwon, RAW says May re-roll, not Must.

You may choose to re-roll hits AND wounds or not at all.

In the case of re-rolling you roll to hit and if you dislike the result re-roll those dice. Then you roll to wound and regardless of whether you like the results or not you must re-roll them. So in effect you can only chose to re-roll your hits because you if you chose to do that you must re-roll your wounds whatever the result.

You can of course not choose to re-roll at all.

A) Everyone knows you reroll only your misses in this situation.

B) MAY reroll all hits/wounds as opposed to only one like other units. I dont have to roll them all. Someone says you may take all 5 apples, theres nothing from stopping you from only taking 3. Two interpretations, the chaos player gets to choose, so obviously reroll all missed hits and wounds.

Just another case of nitpicking, and if anyone opposed this in a real game theyd get laughed at.

The all just means that every die is optional, instead of only some of them.

You may reroll the 1's? yes
You may reroll the 2's? yes
You may reroll the hits? yes
etc
You may reroll all of them.
Does not mean you have to reroll any of them. Nor does it stop you from only rerolling some of them

Yes, it does prevent you from rerolling some of them. You're trying to change it from 'all' to 'any'.

Ghaz wrote:Yes, it does prevent you from rerolling some of them. You're trying to change it from 'all' to 'any'.

No, you are interpreting it a different (the wrong) way.

You can either look at it like:

You may reroll ALL wounds/hits or none <-- wrong, illogical way.

or

You MAY reroll all of the dice as opposed to only one or two, meaning you may roll up to all of them. <-- correct way.

No, you're also trying to substitute the word 'any' for 'all'. All of the dice doesn't mean just the dice you want.

I have to agree with ghaz on this one. "All" is a big piece of this arguement. It is still useful though, if you get a really bad roll of the dice then you get a second chance.

SkizO is right about the Machine Spirit one. (That's pretty straightforward)

Ghaz wrote:No, you're also trying to substitute the word 'any' for 'all'. All of the dice doesn't mean just the dice you want.

Ive given you the interpretations. All dice MAY be rerolled, as opposed to only 1 die may being rerolled. Not hard to understand. One is wrong (yours), and one is right. Who in their right mind would pay 25 points, the second highest costing CSM spell, for a chance to reroll all hits (and then being forced to reroll all wounds...? So the first roll doesnt matter?). It makes no sense.

These rules are not legal documents. There is going to be interpretation, but you use common sense to come to a conclusion. Obviously RaI follows the argument that you can reroll only misses ("Supernatural precision") as does every other example of rerollings hits and wounds.

Ive never understood why people on these boards bother dissecting the English of the codex like this.Its like people on here argue just to have an argument. When youre at your club and you try to pull this, youre going to get laughed at. If its a tourny, the TO is going to go with the common (aka realistic) view of the rule, and if its a friendly game, they can simply pack their stuff up leaving you looking like a tool.

Trying to argue against basic rules like this that would completely change the rule is useless. Its the same thing with Ghazghkuls 6 inch Waagh!! No one is going to take you seriously, why bother arguing it?

And your 'interpretation' is wrong. All dice may be rerolled means that you are permitted to reroll ALL of the dice, not just any that you choose to reroll. You are trying to substitue the word 'any' for 'all'. Your 'interpretation' requires you to change the word 'all' to 'any'.

As for the rest of your comments, it seems to me that it's being a bit hypocritical on your part. Trying to claim that your view is more 'realistic' is just ludicrous and doesn't change the fact that you don't understand the difference between the words 'all' and 'any'.

I'd have to agree with Ghaz here as well.

It very specifically allows you to reroll all of the dice, not any of the dice.

So you reroll all or none.



Of course, as someone else pointed out, the 'and' in there forces you to reroll both hits and wounds, not choose between them. So if you choose to reroll your hits, you would technically have to reroll your wounds as well. And would only be able to reroll wounds if you had already rerolled the hits.

Of course, a rule that forces you to reroll a given roll is absolutely pointless. If you know before rolling wounds that you're going to have to reroll them (due to having rerolled hits) then there's really no point even making the first roll.

So I'm going to assume that they intended for you to be able to choose to reroll hits and/or wounds, and that's how I would be looking to play it.

Ghaz wrote:And your 'interpretation' is wrong. All dice may be rerolled means that you are permitted to reroll ALL of the dice, not just any that you choose to reroll. You are trying to substitue the word 'any' for 'all'. Your 'interpretation' requires you to change the word 'all' to 'any'.

As for the rest of your comments, it seems to me that it's being a bit hypocritical on your part. Trying to claim that your view is more 'realistic' is just ludicrous and doesn't change the fact that you don't understand the difference between the words 'all' and 'any'.

You keep saying this, yet I have my interpretation right there. You may reroll ALL dice as opposed to only 1.

Its not hypocritical in anyway - your argument makes the power all but useless, doesnt have fluff backing it up, and most importantly - its always played with rerolls on misses. Youre not finding some secret combination that has a loophole with rules (ex. taking 6 landraiders, 3 as dedicated transports). Youre reading the exact same rules everyone else are. You are interpreting it a different way, except in a game that is all subjective and only follows the rules the players do, the majority wins (and luckily the majority are always the most common sense way, and not the teenage internet lawyer way).

This is why I laugh everytime someone tries to argue a basic profile rule in some ridiculous way. Youre not going to change anything, and the only thing youre going to do is lose people to play against, get laughed at, and/or be told otherwise by a TO. If someone tried to pull this on me, I would pack my models up and move down a table and play a real game, all while warning others of what this player is like.

I just have to point this out but it says
"May re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."
Not:
"All dice may be re-rolled".

I think it is to be used as a fail safe, such as in the case of an EPIC fail. Also, if you re-roll all to hit does not mean you HAVE to re-roll all to wound. (otherwise there would be utterly no point of rolling the first time anyway.)

And again, your interpretation requires the word 'all' to mean the same thing as 'any'. All of the dice means all of the dice, not just any of the dice you choose. Repeating yourself does not change that.

Night Lords wrote:These rules are not legal documents. There is going to be interpretation, but you use common sense to come to a conclusion. Obviously RaI follows the argument that you can reroll only misses ("Supernatural precision") as does every other example of rerollings hits and wounds.

Ive never understood why people on these boards bother dissecting the English of the codex like this.Its like people on here argue just to have an argument. When youre at your club and you try to pull this, youre going to get laughed at. If its a tourny, the TO is going to go with the common (aka realistic) view of the rule, and if its a friendly game, they can simply pack their stuff up leaving you looking like a tool.

Trying to argue against basic rules like this that would completely change the rule is useless. Its the same thing with Ghazghkuls 6 inch Waagh!! No one is going to take you seriously, why bother arguing it?

Yes, this is indeed being hypocritical. It's saying either agree with me or instead I'll throw a fit and try to blame you for disagreeing with me. Go ahead and pack up your models, I don't need to waste my time playing against someone like you or trying to discuss the rules with someone who doesn't understand what this forum is for.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I just have to point this out but it says
"May re-roll all to hit and all to wounds..."
Not:
"All dice may be re-rolled".

I phrased it in that way to show my interpretation of it. Apply it to the rules.

@Ghaz: I was simply pointing out a SLIGHT misqoute of Night Lords part. I must say I am still with Ghaz on this one.

Night Lords wrote:You may reroll ALL dice as opposed to only 1.

Exactly.

ALL.

Not 'any'

Two very different words.


Re-roll all dice means that you reroll all of them.
Re-roll any dice means that you can choose which to reroll.

and most importantly - its always played with rerolls on misses.

By whom?

Anecdotal evidence doesn't actually count for much. The fact that you've only personally seen people playing the one way in no way guarantees that the rest of the world plays that way. As evidenced by the entire store-loads of people who discovered over the course of 4th Edition that they were playing LOS wrong.

*shakes head* this is so pathetic.

Ghaz wrote:And again, your interpretation requires the word 'all' to mean the same thing as 'any'. All of the dice means all of the dice, not just any of the dice you choose. Repeating yourself does not change that.

Seriously, wtf do you not understand? Ex. You may reroll 4 dice - this means you may reroll up to 4 dice, correct? Ok, now lets say you roll 4 dice. That means *gasp*, you may reroll ALL the dice for hits and wounds! Warptime is a power applying to multiple units with a different number of attacks. These different units can reroll ALL of their attacks, instead of 1 or 2. You keep bringing up "any" - Why? It has NOTHING to do with the interpretation.

Ghaz wrote:
Yes, this is indeed being hypocritical. It's saying either agree with me or instead I'll throw a fit and try to blame you for disagreeing with me. Go ahead and pack up your models, I don't need to waste my time playing against someone like you or trying to discuss the rules with someone who doesn't understand what this forum is for.

What this forum is about? Its about making the call. Its about helping people understand rules and how they would be played when translated onto the tabletop. Who said that this was a board for lawyers and that the rulebook was the legal document? Youre free to post whatever you like, but I can post that your rule is BS and never followed that way in the real world, which is what people looking for help are looking for.

And I would be throwing the hissy fit because youre the one objecting to a standard rule and not allowing me to play it that way? Why would I waste my time with you? This is what the internet lawyers dont understand on here - you cant realistically implement these ridiculous rules that no one follows. Just because youve analyzed and cross referenced and come up with your own insane interpretation of the rules means nothing when you depend on OTHER people to play. This is not a video game, the game goes outside the disc and into the people.

Are there any other dexes that word it like the CSM or is it just this one spell?

Night Lords wrote:You may reroll 4 dice - this means you may reroll up to 4 dice, correct?

Er... no.

'You may reroll up to 4 dice' would mean that you can reroll up to 4 dice.
'You may reroll any of the 4 dice' would mean that you can reroll up to 4 dice.

'You may reroll 4 dice' means that you may reroll 4 dice.

Not 3, or 5. Just 4.

These different units can reroll ALL of their attacks, instead of 1 or 2.

Right. They can reroll all of their attacks. Not any of their attacks. Not the same thing.

You keep bringing up "any" - Why? It has NOTHING to do with the interpretation.

He keeps bringing it up because your interpretation relies on 'any' and 'all' being synonymous. They're not.

What this forum is about? Its about making the call. Its about helping people understand rules and how they would be played when translated onto the tabletop.

Not exactly.

YMDC is primarily about discussing what the rules actually say. How you choose to apply those rules is really up to you.

While we'll sometimes make a mention of how we play it, or how we commonly see it played, when discussing the actual rules we stick with the actual rules. The fact that all 12 people in a given gaming club play a given rule a certain way has no bearing whatsoever on how the rules are actually written.

but I can post that your rule is BS and never followed that way in the real world, which is what people looking for help are looking for.

It's really not, because it's based solely on anecdotal evidence. Again, how you've seen the game played is not necessarily representative of how the game is played anywhere other than where you've played. So pointing out that your way is the 'correct' way to play it is not at all helpful.

By all means point out that you play it that way. Just don't assume that everyone else does.

And I would be throwing the hissy fit because youre the one objecting to a standard rule and not allowing me to play it that way?

It takes two people to disagree.

If someone interprets a rule differently to you, sure, you can throw a tantrum, pack up your toys and leave.

Or, you can just accept that sometimes people read rules differently, dice for it, and get on with the game.

This is what the internet lawyers dont understand on here - you cant realistically implement these ridiculous rules that no one follows.

And what you're apparently not understanding here is that some people do follow these rules.

And some just want to know what the rules actually are, before deciding how to play them.

Im not wasting my time quoting all boxes, here are the highlights:

-YDMC is called you make da call. It is not called Rules as Written (and even then, this argument stands). Sorry.
-You may reroll 4 dice does not mean 4 or none. You may eat 4 apples does not mean eat 4 apples or none. You may eat all the apples does not mean all or none.
-I would never roll off for this. This completely changes how effective a unit is in close combat.
-Picking up my guys and leaving because the opponent is going to waste my time arguing over a GAME is throwing a tantrum? I should stay and watch my units attempt to be butchered? Again, my 175 point unit goes from a complete beast to an unreliable one. I should allow that even though thats the reason i brought it?

And even more proof that seals the deal:

Page 2 of the rule book says with rerolls you"pick up the dice you wish to reroll", followed by "If you roll a 2D6 or 3D6, you must pick up and roll all of the dice, not just some of them".