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ok, I have changed sides. Night Lords is correct. No one is going to be that pedantic. This is not just one wierd one-off spell, this would have effects across the game. GW should have worded it as "re-roll all misses" but if I were to agree with Ghaz and insaniak, well what would be the point of even making the first roll?

I would say the owner CHOOSES which dice he should re-roll.

Thanks for the LR ruling. I re-read the rules about it and it does seem clear I don't see why this was argued on in the first place actually.

It's funny to see that the internet debate goes on exactly as it did in the tournament. I was leaning more towards the way Night Lords is putting it at the tourny.

I can see how both arguments are valid. How do I reach this John Spencer guy or whatever is name is... I curious of what he makes of this. Specially the part that " if you choose to reroll all hit then you must re-roll all to wounds"

Please keep on arguing, this as yet to stall and defer to name calling.

Emperors Faithful wrote:ok, I have changed sides. Night Lords is correct. No one is going to be that pedantic. This is not just one wierd one-off spell, this would have effects across the game. GW should have worded it as "re-roll all misses" but if I were to agree with Ghaz and insaniak, well what would be the point of even making the first roll?

I would say the owner CHOOSES which dice he should re-roll.

This is just another case of "Which way makes more sense?". Youre paying 25 points for a spell that youre gambling with? Gambling somehow turns into "supernatural precision"? I also have to gamble with a leadership test on top of that, do people really think odds are in the users favour? Why not just buy a shooty spell then if your close combat spell is an unreliable piece of junk? This spell already gets the shaft for Lash instead. I could buy nurgles rot and it would be a ton more effective than warptime then.

Youre going against the rules on page 2 of the rulebook. There is no other rule that forces you to reroll everything (outside of 2d6 and such) that I have ever seen. If you do go the other way, youre forced to reroll wounds, and if you just want to reroll wounds, you have to reroll hits first (and how would you know if you want to reroll wounds until you do it?). So either way, youre making something happen that has little sense behind it.

Night Lords wrote:-You may reroll 4 dice does not mean 4 or none.

But it does. 4 means 4.

You may eat 4 apples does not mean eat 4 apples or none.

Of course it does. Any other examples you want to provide will also mean the same thing.

-Picking up my guys and leaving because the opponent is going to waste my time arguing over a GAME is throwing a tantrum?

Packing up your models rather than actually discussing the issue in a sensible fashion with your opponent and dicing off for it if you can't reach an agreement?

Yup, fits my definition of 'tantrum', sorry.

Playing a game is about both players having fun, not just you. That means actually discussing diagreements and finding a way to resolve them, rather than just storming off in a huff.

Page 2 of the rule book says with rerolls you"pick up the dice you wish to reroll", followed by "If you roll a 2D6 or 3D6, you must pick up and roll all of the dice, not just some of them".

Sorry, but I'm not sure how that seals anything.

The rule in question allows you to reroll a given number of dice. So if you choose to reroll those dice, as per the rule you just quoted, you pick up those dice and reroll them.

Nothing in that rule suggests that you ignore any restriction placed elsewhere on what you're actually rerolling.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:No one is going to be that pedantic.

Arguing it just for the sake of argument (which is, after all, pretty normal behaviour in YMDC) would have a certain air of pedantry, sure.

But while I can see Night Lord's point in how he wants the rule to work (and quite frankly would have no problems with playing it the way he wants to play it) it's not what the rule says to do, and even the fluff definition doesn't really contradict either interpretation.

Being able to reroll the pile of 1's you just rolled, after all, is granting you a certain increased precision. It's not as effective as he wants it to be, but it's still a bonus you don't normally get on the attack.

This is not just one wierd one-off spell, this would have effects across the game.

Like what?

GW should have worded it as "re-roll all misses" but if I were to agree with Ghaz and insaniak, well what would be the point of even making the first roll?

You need to make the first to hit roll. It's only the first wound roll that is pointles, and that only if you take the view that an ability allowing you to reroll hits and wounds forces you to reroll both, which is debatable.

Im sorry, but Im not quoting your ridiculously formatted posts. You can say that "4 means 4", but no, thats not what it means at all in the real world. Any normal person would realize this, and youre just twisting it for sake of argument. You may have 5 apples doesnt suddenly place a 5 or nothing rule on you, sorry.

Im sorry you think picking up my stuff because my opponent is being a Rules lawyer is throwing a tantrum. If hes going to argue this gak, hes going to argue other garbage too. Thats how it is with these types of players. Im not wasting my time with these losers in a friendly game. The fact is, my Daemon Prince plays a critical role in my army. Not having this spell completely changes the game for me.

There is no restriction set. Im rerolling the ones I want to, like the rulebook says. I can reroll all the dice, meaning I have permission to reroll the "dice I wish to reroll" as pg2 states.

insaniak c'mon! You have to admit that your interperation of the rules is awfully pedantic. RAW is clearly in favour of re-rolling UP TO 4 dice.

I'm going to have to agree with Insaniak et al on this one - reroll all or none is the way the power is played around here (not that that counts for anything), but you have to agree that GW uses a very specific form of wording when they mean 'up to' - usually along the lines of 'you may reroll missed to hit or to wound rolls' and this is set nothing like that, and is very specific so RAI and RAW support Insaniak here, sorry.

hmm, do you think it is possibly a mistake on GW's part to say "all"? Also, are there other cases of similar re-rolls?

Night Lords wrote:Im sorry, but Im not quoting your ridiculously formatted posts. You can say that "4 means 4", but no, thats not what it means at all in the real world. Any normal person would realize this, and youre just twisting it for sake of argument. You may have 5 apples doesnt suddenly place a 5 or nothing rule on you, sorry.

But 4 does mean 4. He's not twisting it. It's what the rule says. 'All' means 'each and every'. Yes the word 'may' indicates a choice, however the choice here is to re-roll the entire group or none of it. In order for the rule to read the way you want it to, the word 'all' has to be removed entirely, OR replaced with 'any'. Is this what was intended? I don't believe so, but it is what is written.

Emperors Faithful wrote:hmm, do you think it is possibly a mistake on GW's part to say "all"? Also, are there other cases of similar re-rolls?

I think it's very likely a mistake.

But that's just an opinion. It doesn't change what the rules actually say.

So for myself, I would be playing that you reroll all or none, but that you can choose to reroll hits and/or wounds... because the second I'm pretty confident was a mistake while the first might not be. Since I'm not positive, I'll go the conservative route.

Obviously, YMMV.

And however you or I choose to play it, RAW will remain that you reroll all your dice or none until they issue an errata on it.


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Night Lords wrote:Im sorry you think picking up my stuff because my opponent is being a Rules lawyer is throwing a tantrum.

But you're not picking up your stuff because your opponent is being a rules lawyer. You're picking up your stuff because your opponent disagrees with you.

Just because someone plays the game differently to you doesn't make them a rules lawyer.

And frankly, the person claiming that the rules obviously mean something that they don't actually say, simply on the grounds that they themselves are convinced it's the better way to play the game, and getting worked up enough about that to be willing to just pack up and walk away if they don't get their own way is far more likely to be a problem opponent than any of the rules lawyers I've played in the last decade or so.


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Lordhat wrote: Yes the word 'may' indicates a choice, however the choice here is to re-roll the entire group or none of it.

A comparison just occured to me, since I can recall that exact same statement being used last edition.

Rapid Fire weapons had rules stating that if the model stays still, they may fire two shots at up to 12".

People argued until they were blue in the face that 'may fire two shots' meant that they could fire up to 2... right up until GW finally FAQ'd it and pointed out that, no, it was 2 or nothing.

Same situation here. The rules say that you reroll all of them... so you reroll them all. You don't have the option to reroll any less, because no such option is given by the rules.

I'm with Insaniak, here.

NightLords seems to be missing the point.

Yes, I agree that it's probably a mistake on GW's part. Yes, the actual wording makes entire wound rolls pointless.

However, it IS THE RULES, and one of the points of these forums is to figure out what the letter of the rules states, so that we may choose to ignore the rule or not. Since these queries can be quite subtle, it is important that all participants write in a balanced, reasonable way. NightLords is NOT doing this.

I, like Insaniak, would prefer to play that the player with warptime may choose to re-roll ALL his to hit rolls or NONE. And he may then choose to re-roll ALL his to wound rolls or NONE. I think this is still a good psychic power, which is advantageous to use.

You may disagree, but please don't post another shouty, reactionary post reiterating your argument and slamming anyone who disagrees. We get your point.

yeah,
I love how the RAW people admit they think there is a mistake but will push RAW to get a advantage.

anyhow...
I'm playing a game my Daemon Prince is in combat and scores 3 hits and 1 miss

warHammer 40,000 Chaos Space Marines Codex, page 88 - Warp time wrote: ... The Psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that players turn

First off by RAW my Daemon Prince has to roll my dice... mine hasn't got moving arms or opposable thumbs... But I assume that RAI GW intended that the Player controlling the Psyker may actualy perform the Re-Roll. I decide I'd like to reroll.

So after the RAW guy has finnished re-reading that bit about the psyker rolling the dice and called a judge over to rule if the player can roll the psykers dice... I look at page 2 of the rule book to see how a re-roll is preformed.

Warhammer 40,000 Rule book, page 2 - Rerolls wrote: This is exactly as it sounds pick up the dice you wish to reroll and roll them again.

I look at ALL my dice that I'm rerolling and I pick up the dice I wish to re-roll, I pick up the failed hit dice, leaving the other 3 on the table.

The RAW guy leaves the game in a tantrum because I blatantly cheated by rolling the dice when the rules as written say the psyker does it...

Panic.

I don't see it as a mistake, but as a way to represent the fickleness of Chaos. You can take an average roll an reroll it hoping for a better result, but you may get burned instead.

So Preferred Enemy works that way too then?

Hrm, missed that.

At least Acid Maw specifies that misses can be rerolled.

shrug

Lordhat wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Im sorry, but Im not quoting your ridiculously formatted posts. You can say that "4 means 4", but no, thats not what it means at all in the real world. Any normal person would realize this, and youre just twisting it for sake of argument. You may have 5 apples doesnt suddenly place a 5 or nothing rule on you, sorry.

But 4 does mean 4. He's not twisting it. It's what the rule says. 'All' means 'each and every'. Yes the word 'may' indicates a choice, however the choice here is to re-roll the entire group or none of it. In order for the rule to read the way you want it to, the word 'all' has to be removed entirely, OR replaced with 'any'. Is this what was intended? I don't believe so, but it is what is written.

4 means 4, but when you put the word "may" before it, it turns into up to 4. Not hard to understand. You may have all my apples doesnt mean all or none. They are giving you the apples and you can choose what to do with them (just like page 2 of the rulebook says...coincidence!). However, if someone used the word MUST, as in you MUST have all my apples, then you do not have a choice.

If people are going to argue "Why didnt they just use 'any'", then Im going to argue "Why didnt they say must, as in 'If you wish to reroll, You must roll ALL dice again'. May =/= Must".

Again, people are arguing just for the sake of arguing like in Panic's RAW player case. Hell, most of the people in this topic agree that it should be (even though it already is) written that way, yet they cling to this flimsy argument. I ask again why? Everyone plays that way, it seems like everyone agrees it should be played that way, and on top of everything, the interpretation of the sentence can easily go the right way as Ive said how many times now.

If you play the wrong way, then you have to reroll all wounds if you reroll all hits, meaning you pick up the dice, roll it, then pick them up again - makes a lot of sense right?

Then if you want to reroll all wounds, you cant unless you rerolled all hits, yet how would you know if you want to reroll all wounds if you havnt even thrown the dice yet? - Makes a lot of sense right?

So interpreting it the right way justifies the cost, follows fluff, follows the rulebook, and actually makes the spell have a purpose...while the other way is shady at best, making the power all but useless (Im going to take a 1/12 perils of the warp test to reroll ALL dice?) and completely makes no sense with being forced to reroll all hits and wounds in the turn. Hmm, I wonder which way the rule goes?

If reading the rules makes a power worthless, that does not mean the rules are wrong.

Paying points for useless things has been an option for ages. It seems to be more common lately, actually.

Off to read more. . .

kirsanth wrote:If reading the rules makes a power worthless, that does not mean the rules are wrong.

Paying points for useless things has been an option for ages. It seems to be more common lately, actually.

Off to read more. . .

I agree, but thats not what Im saying. Im saying there are two ways to interpret it clearly, or else all the people who play with rerolling only misses (which I can comfortably say is the majority of CSM players) wouldnt be doing so.

When theres two different ways to interpret it, you look to what they intended, and clearly with everything else backing up rerolling only misses, there is an obvious way to play the rule.

Except as written there is not two ways to interpret it. "May" does not change the word "all" into "any".

I have always played it as selecting each die individually as well.

This does not mean I am correct though. Thus my intention to read up on it.

I was curious how Preferred Enemy got so strong in 5e - and reading the counter points here makes me question it again.

Until Gwar! pointed out that I was missing a part of the rules for Leaping, I had my Leaping Warriors charging up to 12" through cover - They should only move 1d6".

Ghaz wrote:Except as written there is not two ways to interpret it. "May" does not change the word "all" into "any".

If you choose to ignore basic English, that is outside of anyones control. You may eat all the food on the table means you must eat it all or none of it?

-----------

I can just see it now:

"You may use all $500 000 on this new project the company is building"

"I believe we'll only need $450 000 sir"

"I said you may use ALL $500 000, not some of it!"

-----------

You guys are fighting an uphill battle on this one, with the hill being a mountain.





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kirsanth wrote:I have always played it as selecting each die individually as well.

This does not mean I am correct though. Thus my intention to read up on it.

I was curious how Preferred Enemy got so strong in 5e - and reading the counter points here makes me question it again.

Until Gwar! pointed out that I was missing a part of the rules for Leaping, I had my Leaping Warriors charging up to 12" through cover - They should only move 1d6".

There are no points countering preferred enemy. Their argument rests on the sole definition of the word all (as a single word mind you, and not in context with the rest of the sentence). PE does not use the word all.

You cant use PotMS to launch smoke launchers. Smoke Launchers are not weapons they can only be used instead of weapons. They have no BS or STR.

Actually the lack of that word is exactly the issue.

There are places that it is clear that misses may be re-rolled (Acid Maw), any die from a set can be chosen and re-rolled (Lictors), or all dice must be re-rolled(Scatter TL weapons).

The fact that it is not stating that some can be rolled, it seems to logically follow that they all should be.

I am trying to see if there is a good place to start on that.

Wait, what?

(Directed at the POTMS thing)

broxus wrote:You cant use PotMS to launch smoke launchers. Smoke Launchers are not weapons they can only be used instead of weapons. They have no BS or STR.

Thanks for that, but I agree with :

Mekboy wrote: Wait, what?

kirsanth wrote:Actually the lack of that word is exactly the issue.

There are places that it is clear that misses may be re-rolled (Acid Maw), any die from a set can be chosen and re-rolled (Lictors), or all dice must be re-rolled(Scatter TL weapons).

The fact that it is not stating that some can be rolled, it seems to logically follow that they all should be.

I am trying to see if there is a good place to start on that.

Except if you read page 2 of the rulebook, itll tell you exactly what you need to know:

Acid Maw- Individual Dice, can pick and choose
Lictors - Individual Dice, can pick and choose
Scatter TL weapons - 2d6 multiple dice, cannot pick and choose, must reroll all.

Following that:

Preferred Enemy - Individual Dice, can pick and choose
Warptime - Individual Dice, can pick and choose

If you -may- reroll all, it implies you also -may- reroll none, obviously. Seems to me like you also -may- reroll some.
Or... You may reroll all, taken individially.

When they have you reroll, they specifiy if you must accept the second result, otherwise you get to pick.
Seems to me like they would also specifiy if you must reroll all of them if you choose to reroll.

If you roll 2d6 or 3d6 you must reroll them all, because it's a single roll.

Rolls to hit and to wound are all individual rolls of 1d6 however, so this doesn't apply.

See, that is why I go and read before posting.

I knew it was in there somewhere.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I love how the RAW people admit they think there is a mistake but will push RAW to get a advantage.

I'm not pushing RAW to get an advantage. I'm just stating what it is. As much as I disagree with Night Lord's opinion of what the rule says, I do agree with him that that is how the rule should be played, and do let my regular chaos opponent do so. YMDC and HIAP (How I actually Play) are often different, especially since I'm no longer part of the tournament scene.

None of this changes what the rule says however.

If you -may- reroll all, it implies you also -may- reroll none, obviously. Seems to me like you also -may- reroll some.

Which once again is not what the rule says. Just because you can choose to reroll all of the dice or none of them doesn't mean that you can choose something in between. If they wanted you to be able to reroll only some of the dice, then they would have used the word "any" instead of "all". The RAW doesn't support only rerolling some of the dice despite some people's claims to the contrary.

Page two in the section detailing re-rolls seems to permit the choice:

"pick up the dice you wish to re-roll and roll them again"

The caveat about rolling all the dice at once is about re-rolling a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.

I am still a bit off on this though.