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I read it as you may reroll whatever you want, I do see Ghaz's point, my first impression and the my current impression just don't agree with it.

Broxus, you might want to re-read the PotMS question, I think you misunderstood what I asked...


I think it's worth noting that this whole debate started when the player wanted to re-rolled all hits and keep his misses in order to stay in combat with one SM for another turn to prevent getting shot to bits.

But I believe that whichever ruling is agreed ( if that happens) it will be the same answer regardding hits and misses rerolls.

Thanks to all, this was helpful!

Night Lords wrote:
Acid Maw- Individual Dice, can pick and choose

Because the rule clearly says you may.

Lictors - Individual Dice, can pick and choose

I don't know if you're referring to Feeder Tendrils or Pheromone trail here, but I'll deal with each. FT gives Preferred Enemy(See below). PT specifically say you may re-roll one reserves roll. Because it doesn't specify which one, it means any.

Scatter TL weapons - 2d6 multiple dice, cannot pick and choose, must reroll all.

Here is an underlying problem with your understanding I think. Rolling 2 dice to hit is not equivalent to rolling 2d6, in game terms. The former is two rolls, the second is only one. So in the first instance you are 'activating' 2 random number generators with a range of 1-6, in the second you are 'activating' a single random number generator with a range of 2-12. If Warptime was designed to affect the rolling of multiple scatters at the same time, you would have the option of re-rolling ALL the different sets of 2d6, or NONE of them. Likewise if Preferred Enemy was modified similarly, them you would have the choice of which sets you wanted to re-roll.

Preferred Enemy - Individual Dice, can pick and choose

You may pick and choose because the rule does not specify which rolls, or how many of those rolls.

Warptime - Individual Dice, can pick and choose

Warptime states ALL rolls to hit. Note the absence of terminology like "All failed rolls" (Lightning Claws), or "any rolls" (Fortune, Guide)

Lordhat wrote:
Warptime states ALL rolls to hit. Note the absence of terminology like "All failed rolls" (Lightning Claws), or "any rolls" (Fortune, Guide)

Sorry, other rules in other codexs do not matter at all, and this rule defers from LCs as this uses both hits and wounds, which is probably the reason for the word "all" in the first place. Even if this was seen elsewhere in the same codex, it does not matter when interpreting the rules.

Again, you MAY reroll all dice, just like you MAY use all the money in a budget - does that mean you have to use the entire budget? No.

The way it reads the Lightning Claws _MUST_ re-roll any misses.

Warptime can choose to re-roll all to-hit rolls and can choose to re-roll all to-wound rolls.

Same codex.
Different wordings = different rules.

Night Lords wrote:

Lordhat wrote:
Warptime states ALL rolls to hit. Note the absence of terminology like "All failed rolls" (Lightning Claws), or "any rolls" (Fortune, Guide)

Sorry, other rules in other codexs do not matter at all, and this rule defers from LCs as this uses both hits and wounds, which is probably the reason for the word "all" in the first place. Even if this was seen elsewhere in the same codex, it does not matter when interpreting the rules.

Again, you MAY reroll all dice, just like you MAY use all the money in a budget - does that mean you have to use the entire budget? No.

YOU were the one who started bringing the rules from other codices into the discussion. I simply made the rebuttals.

40k is a permissive rule set. You can only do what the rules specifically permit you to do. The rules specifically allow you to reroll all of the dice, not just any dice that you choose. Your example is meaningless because your budget does not exist within the framework of a permissive rule set. Rerolling all of the dice is the only option given to you when you decide to reroll so that is the only thing you can do.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I love how the RAW people admit they think there is a mistake but will push RAW to get a advantage.

I love how people automatically assume that the people arguing RAW are trying to get some sort of advantage.

We discuss RAW in YMDC. We quite often play the game differently.

I've stated that I would play by the more conservative option because it's more in keeping with how GW have ruled in the past on similarly worded rules. Doing so impacts my own army. There's no advantage in me playing that way. I'm playing that way because I think it's the best way to play it until GW rules otherwise.

RAI: They probably meant to allow the chaos player to pick and choose which rolls to reroll.

RAW: Unfortunately what they wrote is clear, the chaos player has the choice of rerolling all of his rolls or not. The way they used the word all simply does mean that; its reroll them ALL or dont reroll them. To be able to reroll just a few the word any does need to be in there.

The real world example of taking apples, if you take just the good apples and leave the rotten apples for the generous giver to have to clean up then you have violated his offer. You could either leave them all or take them all.
The example with food on a table...its why people say "you may eat all that you want". Saying "you may eat all the food on the table" even sounds wrong when you compare the two statements.


As far as fluff thinking (I know this has zero relevance to raw and only a tiny concern for RAI) its quite possible that the chaos player ability Warptime does just that. If the chaos player doesnt like a round of combat then he can warp time and go back and have an e complete redo of the entire combat. Sounds very much in keeping with the weirdness of chaos actually.



Sliggoth

Ghaz wrote:40k is a permissive rule set. You can only do what the rules specifically permit you to do. The rules specifically allow you to reroll all of the dice, not just any dice that you choose. Your example is meaningless because your budget does not exist within the framework of a permissive rule set. Rerolling all of the dice is the only option given to you when you decide to reroll so that is the only thing you can do.

What are you talking about? The entire reason for rerolling only misses is because its based on the permissive rules on page 2 of the rulebook. I may pick up the dice i wish to reroll when using a reroll rule. Thus, given the nature of the wording for warptime, we determine whether it is going against this permissive rule. Using basic English, and the many examples Ive provided including "You may use all the money in the budget, it doesnt mean I have to use all of it", its clear that it's "up to", and it is not restricting me.

On top of all that, it doesnt matter as even by itself, the nature of the wording "You MAY reroll all dice" is permissive in itself, as it leaves you with options.

I fail to see how English is interpreted in the real world doesnt cross over to rules written by authors to get a message across in the rulebook. The context is no different because its in a warhammer rulebook. You are just picking and choosing what you want to hear for the sake of your argument.

I said it before in this topic and Ill say it again: The rules are not legal documents, they are people communicating to us in modern language. You cannot restrict yourself to word by word basis without taking the context of the entire sentence.

EDIT: Even in this message I quoted you leave out the word "MAY". Its the most crucial part of the sentence. If it wasnt there and said MUST, then you would be right, but that is not the case. MAY changes the whole sentence and meaning.

Night Lords wrote:[What are you talking about? The entire reason for rerolling only misses is because its based on the permissive rules on page 2 of the rulebook. I may pick up the dice i wish to reroll when using a reroll rule.

But you're still bound by the rule that actually allows the reroll in the first place.

If a rule says 'You may reroll these 2 dice' then you get the option to reroll those two dice, or to not reroll those two dice.

So when page 2 tells you to pick up the dice you wish to reroll, you either pick up the 2 dice specified by the reroll rule in question, or you choose not to reroll.

All page 2 is saying is that if you choose to make a reroll, you pick up the dice you are rerolling and roll them. It doesn't over-ride any other rules telling you how to make that reroll. You can't just decide to reroll only 1 if the rule specifies that you reroll both.

Thus, given the nature of the wording for warptime, we determine whether it is going against this permissive rule. Using basic English, and the many examples Ive provided including "You may use all the money in the budget, it doesnt mean I have to use all of it", its clear that it's "up to", and it is not restricting me.

It might be clear to you, but it's not correct English.

'You may use all of the money in the budget' does indeed mean that you may use all of the money in the budget.
'You may use any amount of money in the budget' would allow you to use less than all of it.

'All' means 'all'

On top of all that, it doesnt matter as even by itself, the nature of the wording "You MAY reroll all dice" is permissive in itself, as it leaves you with options.

Indeed it does. Two, to be exact:
1: Make a reroll.
2: Don't make a reroll.

If you choose option 1. then as per page 2, you pick up the dice you wish to reroll (all of them as specified by the rule, as that was the choice you made and so those are the dice you wish to reroll) and roll them.
If you choose option 2, you leave all of the dice on the table.

MAY changes the whole sentence and meaning.

This is the exact same mistake that was made by people arguing the Rapid Fire rule I mentioned before.

'May' doesn't change the meaning of the word 'all'

Yes, it gives you an option. But the option is as specified by the rest of the sentence.

In this particular case, that option is not to roll fewer dice, because the rule specifies that you reroll them all. The option is to reroll in the first place. It then details what you reroll (all of the dice) if you choose that option.

If it said 'must' instead of 'may' then you would have to make a reroll, whether you want to or not.

Insaniak, you have THE most annoying posting format in the world. Ive already painfully responded to two of your posts, and Im letting you know Im not reading your posts anymore until you can put paragraphs together that make it easier to read.

Note: I dont care if you dont care I wont read your posts .

So...what, you would prefer I write a 5-page essay when a single statement would do the same job?

I'm completely at a loss as to how a paragraph is easier to read than a single sentence, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Ignore all you want.

Night Lords wrote:Insaniak, you have THE most annoying posting format in the world. Ive already painfully responded to two of your posts, and Im letting you know Im not reading your posts anymore until you can put paragraphs together that make it easier to read.

Note: I dont care if you dont care I wont read your posts .

Read: I'm going to throw a fit and insult your posting style because I can't admit that I'm wrong.

Yeah,

Ghaz wrote:The rules specifically allow you to reroll...

No. That's not what the codex says in writing. By RAW it says the psyker model rolls the dice, and your psyker model must be able to roll ALL the dice at the same time, so psyker models with small hands that can only roll one dice at a time may not use this rule.

but ignoring that bit of RAW... I'll recontinue your quote...

Ghaz wrote:... The rules specifically allow you to reroll all of the dice, not just any dice that you choose...

I read this as I can apply the re-roll rule (BGB page 2) to ALL the dice... so I do and I only wish to re-roll the misses.

PAnic........

Lordhat wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Insaniak, you have THE most annoying posting format in the world. Ive already painfully responded to two of your posts, and Im letting you know Im not reading your posts anymore until you can put paragraphs together that make it easier to read.

Note: I dont care if you dont care I wont read your posts .

Read: I'm going to throw a fit and insult your posting style because I can't admit that I'm wrong.

This is the most pathetic post Ive ever seen on here (Congratulations). Ive said in my other replies that Im not replying to all that, and Im fed up with his posts that jump all over the place. Seriously, its one sentence and then a gap, and then another sentence, followed by another gap. Stick to well trained thoughts, and make your points in a well written structure. I have absolutely no idea what he said.

Maybe instead of making junky posts like this that have nothing to do with you, you should actually address the issue Ive given you. The wording "You may eat all the apples" in no way implies all or none. Good luck trying to convince anyone that it does, or that this somehow doesnt apply to warhammer (Ive already gotten one ridiculous post trying), so good luck

Sliggoth wrote:RAI: They probably meant to allow the chaos player to pick and choose which rolls to reroll.

RAW: Unfortunately what they wrote is clear, the chaos player has the choice of rerolling all of his rolls or not. The way they used the word all simply does mean that; its reroll them ALL or dont reroll them. To be able to reroll just a few the word any does need to be in there.

Since the others are hopeless, I'm going to explain why the RAW is exactly what was intended and is actually fluffy.

According to the fluff, the Chaos Gods have always been shown as extremely fickle beings. They've been known to take their champions and turn them into spawn. So does it sound very fluffy for you to be able to reroll the dice and the absolute worst that can happen is that the results stay the same? Doesn't sound like Chaos to me in the least. How about you?

It's much fluffier to reroll all of the dice as the rules state. You may improve a slightly below average roll, but the fickle Chaos Gods may also abandon their champion turning the reroll into a disaster. Such is the fate of those who serve Chaos.

Panic wrote:I read this as I can apply the re-roll rule (BGB page 2) to ALL the dice... so I do and I only wish to re-roll the misses.

Codex overrides rulebook, so when the codex says 'all' you reroll 'all', not just the ones that you choose. So you pick up the dice you've decided to reroll, which in this case is either all of them or none at all.

Wow I just realized that because you re-roll 3 dice to hit because you missed with 2 of them, you may then proceed to get all wounds but then lose them all because you have to re-roll them...

Panic wrote:yeah,
I love how the RAW people admit they think there is a mistake but will push RAW to get a advantage.

QFT lol! Spot on Panic!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look guys, this is YMTC, not just RAW, so unless you're actually going to try and convince your opponent that TECHNICALLY you're right, I'd let them pick and choose. There is no other example that a know of where ALL the to-hits or to-wounds MUST be rolled.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Look guys, this is YMTC, not just RAW, so unless you're actually going to try and convince your opponent that TECHNICALLY you're right, I'd let them pick and choose.

And once again, you appear to be completely missing the point of the forum. Nobody's trying to convince an opponent of anything. What we're doing is discussing the rules of the game, as written in the rulebook.

At the end of such a discussion, you either wind up with a consensus view (This is how the rule works) or multiple viewpoints (where people can't agree on just what the actual wording means).

People reading the thread can then take that result and apply it to their own game as they personally see fit. They're the ones who will be trying to convince their opponents. Or not, if their opponent happens to have read the sam thread and already seen the relevant arguments.


That's why the arguments here tend to stick to RAW... because anything else is just a house rule, and completely irrelevant when trying to determine what the rules actually are as opposed to simply how people choose to play them.

There is no other example that a know of where ALL the to-hits or to-wounds MUST be rolled.

Ignoring for the moment that a short while back you were claiming that this rule would have an impact across the entire game, what difference does that make?

Aside from the Tyranid Lictor, there are no other examples of rules that allow you to Deep Strike into impassable terrain. Does that mean that the Lictor's rules don't actually work as written?

Codexes contain exclusive rules that don't apply to anyone else. That's what the codexes are for.

At this point I would like to point out that the phrase "all rolls to hit and wound for the entirety of that player's turn" also clearly includes the opponent's die rolls, as well as the die rolls for combats not involving the sorcerer. Is that chaotic, or what?

"I'm sorry, but I just don't like how this turn has turned out. I'm going to reroll everything now."

solkan wrote:At this point I would like to point out that the phrase "all rolls to hit and wound for the entirety of that player's turn" also clearly includes the opponent's die rolls, as well as the die rolls for combats not involving the sorcerer. Is that chaotic, or what?

...except that the whole sentence is actually referring to the Psyker's rolls, not every roll made that turn.

Yeah,

Ghaz wrote:Codex overrides rulebook, so when the codex says 'all' you reroll 'all', not just the ones that you choose. So you pick up the dice you've decided to reroll, which in this case is either all of them or none at all.

warHammer 40,000 Chaos Space Marines Codex, page 88 - Warp time wrote: ... The Psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that players turn

Ok if Codex over rules page 2 of the BGB, then by RAW I can reroll ALL dice as many times as I want again and again for the entirety of the players turn...
I can keep rerolling untill I have four hits and four wounds...

Panic.

insaniak wrote:

solkan wrote:At this point I would like to point out that the phrase "all rolls to hit and wound for the entirety of that player's turn" also clearly includes the opponent's die rolls, as well as the die rolls for combats not involving the sorcerer. Is that chaotic, or what?

...except that the whole sentence is actually referring to the Psyker's rolls, not every roll made that turn.

You only say that because you haven't seen my combination demon prince and dice tower.

Edit: Because I'm apparently too tired to do the straight man act, or read properly, the rule says that the psyker gets to do the rerolls, not the player, consistency with every other rule not withstanding.

There doesn't seem to be much 'discussion' going on in this thread, insaniak. Just people continuously throwing their own version of 'right' at eachother and accusing others of being wrong, lol.

Anyway, a note on if to-hit and to-wound are mutually exclusive or not; what would be the point of re-rolling both of them because you have to? that would be just like rolling it if there was no re-roll. Doesn't make sense.

I do agree, by RAW, that you have to roll all or none, simply because thats what is written in the codex. Compared to other similar rules, which state you may choose to roll misses, this rule does not follow that same format. Is this right? I'm not sure, it doesn't seem that way. But until GW clears this, then we must take it as RAW, right? Speaking competitively of course.

And I like Ghaz's fluff explanation as well. Well done chap.

So lets stop bashing eachother with the play ground bully-ism "NO YOU'RE WRONG!!" It's getting old. It's leading to personal attacks on posting style and blah blah. We don't need it.

Night Lords wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Insaniak, you have THE most annoying posting format in the world. Ive already painfully responded to two of your posts, and Im letting you know Im not reading your posts anymore until you can put paragraphs together that make it easier to read.

Note: I dont care if you dont care I wont read your posts .

Read: I'm going to throw a fit and insult your posting style because I can't admit that I'm wrong.

This is the most pathetic post Ive ever seen on here (Congratulations). Ive said in my other replies that Im not replying to all that, and Im fed up with his posts that jump all over the place. Seriously, its one sentence and then a gap, and then another sentence, followed by another gap. Stick to well trained thoughts, and make your points in a well written structure. I have absolutely no idea what he said.

Maybe instead of making junky posts like this that have nothing to do with you, you should actually address the issue Ive given you. The wording "You may eat all the apples" in no way implies all or none. Good luck trying to convince anyone that it does, or that this somehow doesnt apply to warhammer (Ive already gotten one ridiculous post trying), so good luck

Please, NightLords, shut the feth up!

Insaniak's posting style lays out all the points, fairly, and then explains the problems with each of these points. It's a lot easier to read and understand than your single-paragraph rants.

You have made your point. We all know what you think. Yet every other post is by you, blowing up at someone for daring to disagree. We get it. We understand. We get the point, and we disagree with it. Restating it again and again will not change our minds!

yeah,

I'm bored of this too.
It's been proven that by RAW, mandatory re-rolls to wound doesn't work there is no point rolling twice when you have to accept the second roll, so by RAW there is a error in the text.

I'll be playing it RAI.
When GW say ALL it's clear they are refering to both shooting and combat...

When Shooting you may re-roll your dice that missed to hit

When Shooting you may re-roll your dice that missed to wound

When in Combat you may re-roll your dice that missed to hit

When in Combat you may re-roll your dice that missed to wound

PAnic...

ArbitorIan wrote:
Please, NightLords, shut the feth up!

Insaniak's posting style lays out all the points, fairly, and then explains the problems with each of these points. It's a lot easier to read and understand than your single-paragraph rants.

You have made your point. We all know what you think. Yet every other post is by you, blowing up at someone for daring to disagree. We get it. We understand. We get the point, and we disagree with it. Restating it again and again will not change our minds!

What is this? Another tool flaming me when it has nothing to do with you. If people are going to quote me, Im going to respond. Notice I dont have a post recently since no one quoted me?

The problem is they avoid the points or come up with horrible excuses (see: Passive rules post), so I have to go back to the core reasoning behind it. I honestly dont care if they agree or not, they are rule lawyers who have been defeated by the English language and have no way to prove otherwise.

As for inaniaks posts, I have how many people quoting me? If you want me to address your points, dont make me scroll up and down 4 or 5 screens! Keep your points together. My single paragraph rants? What about your entire post that contributed nothing to this topic? GTFO if youre just going to troll!

Even though I've probably ruined my shot, here goes...

The rule for Warptime is "The psyker may reroll all rolls to hit and wound for the entire player turn." The rules for re-rolls says "In some situations the rules allow you a 're-roll' of the dice." One blatantly absurd construction of the rules is that Warptime gives the reroll to the model, and not to the player. Another blatantly absurd construction is that Warptime grants the ability to reroll all of the to hit and wound rolls for both players for the entire turn in which the power is used.

In my opinion, to construe "may reroll all rolls to hit and wound" as something other than "grants the ability to reroll any to hit and wound by the psyker" is equally absurd. But as long as we're arguing absurdities, we may as well be thorough about it. After all, if we're going to argue about Games Workshop deliberately using 'all' instead of 'any', we should be arguing the rest of it, too.

solkan wrote:Edit: Because I'm apparently too tired to do the straight man act, or read properly, the rule says that the psyker gets to do the rerolls, not the player, consistency with every other rule not withstanding.

That's where context kicks in.

Obviously, the model can't reroll its own attacks. Saying that the Psyker can reroll its attacks is simply an easier way of saying that you can reroll attacks made by the Psyker.

Sure, you can go down the silly path and claim that the model itself has to make the roll... but that doesn't really accomplish anything constructive beyond rendering the whole rule completely useless.