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Predator w/ Autocannon,Heavy Bolter Side Sponsons, Havoc Launcher and comes to 115 points the Havoc Launcher is Pintle Mounted so you can I guess mount it on the turrent as that is the only place that seems to make sense. So with a Heavy Bolter/ Autocannon / Havoc Launcher firing a turn thats 3 Str 5 AP4 ; Heavy 1 Twin Linked Blast at STR 5 and Autocannon. For 120 points.

Has anyone used this I dont even own a Chaos PRedator.

Where are you getting the Heavy Bolter from? The dirge caster is just for tank shocking. I'ts quite a large amount of points for a fairly small bite.

Predators, be they spiky, yellow and black, or blue and white, are better in a tank-hunting position. Autocannon + sponson lascannons is an excellent tank hunter at range, and if push comes to shove you can point it at terminators, nobs, ogryn, etc. and still get good results (though hardly optimal).

@Railguns - I think by Side Sponsors he was defaulting to the Heavy Bolter option... which makes sense point wize with the point he gave for his buildout.

I think the only issue I have with Lascannons on a Predator, which I am not saying is bad, is for the points you now start looking back at oblits I am liking the basic AC/HB build for 100 points, but even then I think the SM Codex makes me cry as I see the point diff between Loyalists and Rebels.

This ends up being more preference, where in a Predator I am looking for cheap anti-light vehicle and some light anti-infantry the AC/HB option is what I prefer.


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I would also drop the Dirge Caster, since you'll most likely won't get much use out of it.

Yeah; I just kind of was like Hey Dirge Caster woot. That said yeah; the space marine Predator is incredibly cheap for points; but it doesnt actually have the firepower of the Chaos one as the chaos one can fire the autocannon, h. bolter , and havoc launcher at one squad.

Dirge casters are great for tank-shocking nob squads off the board - easiest solution to them next to psyker battle squads!

[quote=AbsoluteBlueI think the only issue I have with Lascannons on a Predator, which I am not saying is bad, is for the points you now start looking back at oblits I am

Oblits are definitely more versatile than Predators and can tackle all sorts of issues. If you think you would like or need the ability to, on one turn, fire anti-tank weapons at one unit, and the next turn burn down a horde with twin-linked flamers, then Obliterators are definitely going to help you more than a Predator, which by it's nature cannot be so flexible and effective at the same time. But if you are already running a few armored vehicles, it can't hurt to use them.

Railguns wrote:Oblits are definitely more versatile than Predators and can tackle all sorts of issues. If you think you would like or need the ability to, on one turn, fire anti-tank weapons at one unit, and the next turn burn down a horde with twin-linked flamers, then Obliterators are definitely going to help you more than a Predator, which by it's nature cannot be so flexible and effective at the same time. But if you are already running a few armored vehicles, it can't hurt to use them.

Oblits are not anti horde fire. Period. Flamers are good on quick infantry where you can flank around and catch the enemy in a bad formation, S&P units are not. Your opponent should know not to line their guys up perfectly infront of your oblits.

Anyways, the dakka predator is ok for its cheap cost if you only have a few points left over. I prefer other methods for anti horde (ie. A lot of marines and autocannons) but the dakka predator is a good choice if it fits into your list.

Plasma cannons are better anti horde than any sort of shot weapon unless it can beat the 4-6 models that a blast is going to hit, on average.

Horde players simply can't keep their units spread out properly to minimize blasts; you're always going to land on more than the 2-3 that BS4 heavy bolters average. Even Mech players have trouble disembarking in a way that will grant less than 4-6 models hit directly.

Add in S7 and AP2 and often times a single direct hit can outgun every shot fired off a Dakka Pred.

In my experience so far Obliterators have done an excellent job at anti-horde, as the Plasma Cannons do excellent.

Back on topic though, I am definitely not saying Predators can't fit a roll, but so far my thoughts and experience is that the AC/HB Predator has given me the most bang for the buck, within the scope of Predators. (i still default Oblits )

I just like it as its a cheap options and has armour 13.

Oblits are not anti horde fire. Period. Flamers are good on quick infantry where you can flank around and catch the enemy in a bad formation, S&P units are not. Your opponent should know not to line their guys up perfectly infront of your oblits.

I guess plasma cannons don't count as anti-horde then?

Hollismason wrote:I just like it as its a cheap options and has armour 13.

And they look awesome with the Forgeworld extra armor.

augustus5 wrote:

Oblits are not anti horde fire. Period. Flamers are good on quick infantry where you can flank around and catch the enemy in a bad formation, S&P units are not. Your opponent should know not to line their guys up perfectly infront of your oblits.

I guess plasma cannons don't count as anti-horde then?

Small Blast templates are pathetically easy to avoid, even for horde armies. No, theyre not anti horde.

Night Lords wrote:Small Blast templates are pathetically easy to avoid, even for horde armies. No, theyre not anti horde.

You realize all of us are playing 5th edition right? Ya know the one where if the blast touches you, you get hit?

And you realize the radius of the template is 1.5", and you can be 2" away?

It's a 3" DIAMETER template. You'll hit things. This isn't impossible computer land where everyone has every model exactly 2" apart at all times to minimize small blasts(which scatter, and generally won't land directly on a models head for the 1.5 inches to stop it from hitting things). Hell, real horde players like foot Orks don't have the TIME to care about that.

You will get to fire flamers at things too. It happens. I'm not saying the Predator is bad, but the Obliterators are practically the epitome of firepower flexibility. The Predator is a vehicle and thus laughs at small arms, which can take out Oblits, but it just won't have the firepower of a couple of Oblits.

Railguns wrote:It's a 3" DIAMETER template. You'll hit things. This isn't impossible computer land where everyone has every model exactly 2" apart at all times to minimize small blasts(which scatter, and generally won't land directly on a models head for the 1.5 inches to stop it from hitting things). Hell, real horde players like foot Orks don't have the TIME to care about that.

You will get to fire flamers at things too. It happens. I'm not saying the Predator is bad, but the Obliterators are practically the epitome of firepower flexibility. The Predator is a vehicle and thus laughs at small arms, which can take out Oblits, but it just won't have the firepower of a couple of Oblits.

Diameter doesnt matter. You have to be 1.5 away from each other, which is not a problem. If you have buildings between you, you can clump them up, while you space out the people in the open. Not very hard to do, and time isnt an issue.

Even in the case of a mistake, youre still only hitting 2-3 guys, assuming all goes well.

I'm telling you that this case of your hits being reduced by spreading models out is rare. The blasts scatter, and everyone touched is hit. 2/3rds of the time you'll land that blast between some models and hit at least 2 if your opponent took the time to make sure that each and every model was 2 inches away from every other model in the unit. And even if it was a mere 2 or 3 models, 2 obliterators (not much more points than the upgunned Predator) will cause 4-6 S7 ap2 hits, as opposed to ~4 S5 ap4 hits and ~1.5 S7 ap4 hits. So advantage obliterators because of ap. Then, advantage Obliterators AGAIN because the next turn they can fire multi-meltas at a Land Raider, or use the twin-linked plasma guns to gun down a Monstrous Creature or character, etc, etc, that the Predator couldn't do with it's fixed anti-infantry loadout.

Or, whatever you want. Go argue with IG players about how terrible the Devildog must be because the Melta-cannon uses a small blast, or why Tyranid Warriors spamming Deathspitters must be terrible because they use small blasts too.

Railguns wrote:I'm telling you that this case of your hits being reduced by spreading models out is rare. The blasts scatter, and everyone touched is hit. 2/3rds of the time you'll land that blast between some models and hit at least 2 if your opponent took the time to make sure that each and every model was 2 inches away from every other model in the unit. And even if it was a mere 2 or 3 models, 2 obliterators (not much more points than the upgunned Predator) will cause 4-6 S7 ap2 hits, as opposed to ~4 S5 ap4 hits and ~1.5 S7 ap4 hits. So advantage obliterators because of ap. Then, advantage Obliterators AGAIN because the next turn they can fire multi-meltas at a Land Raider, or use the twin-linked plasma guns to gun down a Monstrous Creature or character, etc, etc, that the Predator couldn't do with it's fixed anti-infantry loadout.

Or, whatever you want. Go argue with IG players about how terrible the Devildog must be because the Melta-cannon uses a small blast, or why Tyranid Warriors spamming Deathspitters must be terrible because they use small blasts too.

Sigh...for 150 points I can get 1.5 preds. That means its easily 6-7 worth of dead orks. I dont have to deal with overheating, I dont have to deal with scattering, I dont have to deal with a half decent horde player that will simply spread their guys out.

I dont need the oblit to shoot melta guns when I have 8 of them. Oblits are used when you spent too many points in non HS units and only have enough points to buy a couple of guys, and really need someone who is "good", not great, at everything.

And I dont know wtf youre talking about, but when I play something like IG, I spread my guys out to negate any benefit they may recieve from buying an expensive tank with a small blast. Im not going to counter 100 points of a model because I simply dont want to take the time to spread them out?

Let me correct your points values here. A predator with Autocannon, and drat nothing else, is 70 points. An Obliterator is 75. No, 2 autocannons will ever, ever be "good for" 6-7 dead Orks a turn.

We aren't talking about just "need" here either. You can use them to fill out one source of firepower you need, but unlike the predator, Obliterators can come in in a pinch and do any number of other things.


People take 8 meltagun lists and Obliterators all the flipping time. They can shoot at ANYTHING(Minus the Monolith, but what can) and have a good chance of doing serious damage to it. If you think small blasts are useless, and insist on ignoring the fact that a scattering 3" diameter blast of S7 ap2 has a very good chance of hitting more than one model despite spreading your models out because this isn't 4th edition anymore, this is 5th and these things scatter for gods sake , then I can't help you. There isn't anything more to be said on the subject.
Oh yeah, obligatory monosyllabic gesture of contempt and superiority that all Internet Tough Guys have to have. "Sigh"


So, to the OP. Predators are fine. If you run multiple armored vehicles like Rhinos, you are likely going to present more targets than most opponents AP is likely to easily work around. This helps your opponent make critical fire-priority mistakes that can work in your favor.

Obliterators can engage nearly anything at range generally and cause more damage than a predator, but you have to understand that Obliterators, durability wise, are expensive Terminators with an extra wound. Be careful with them and they should reward you. I recommend trying them both out with your army if you can afford it to see what you like more.

Railguns wrote:Let me correct your points values here. A predator with Autocannon, and drat nothing else, is 70 points. An Obliterator is 75. No, 2 autocannons will ever, ever be "good for" 6-7 dead Orks a turn.

wtf are you talking about? 100 points I get a predator with an auto cannon and two heavy bolters. Nobody should EVER take a naked pred.

Railguns wrote:We aren't talking about just "need" here either. You can use them to fill out one source of firepower you need, but unlike the predator, Obliterators can come in in a pinch and do any number of other things.

And the point is they do their job "good", not great. Dakka preds are better for anti horde, period.

Railguns wrote:People take 8 meltagun lists and Obliterators all the flipping time. They can shoot at ANYTHING(Minus the Monolith, but what can) and have a good chance of doing serious damage to it. If you think small blasts are useless, and insist on ignoring the fact that a scattering 3" diameter blast of S7 ap2 has a very good chance of hitting more than one model despite spreading your models out because this isn't 4th edition anymore, this is 5th and these things scatter for gods sake , then I can't help you. There isn't anything more to be said on the subject.

Do you even understand what were talking about here? A predator can have 2 heavy bolters. Your first post asking where the heavy bolters come from still leads me to believe you have no idea what were talking about. Small templates will hit 2-3 units if youre lucky, and thats if it doesnt scatter and doesnt overheat. A dakka predator will kill 3 T4 orks with its heavy bolters alone (so its even better against nids and guard infantry). Then theres the autocannon which has a pretty good chance of killing 2 more as well.

Again, Oblits are all around good units, but there are units that do each role better. The dakka pred is one of them.

I mirror Railguns' and Whitedragons' sentiments. Multiple small blasts are *deadly*, and excellent anti-horde especially. It's been proven to me in games playing my Grotzooka Kans, Executioner Russes, and Oblits. Even against non-horde players, scenarios often exist where they can't keep their guys spread at max distance. It only takes a few clumped models to make a direct hit land on 4 guys.

I find Night Lord's sentiments to have been largely true for 4th edition.


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Night Lords wrote:
And the point is they do their job "good", not great. Dakka preds are better for anti horde, period.

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Dakka Pred (1 autocannon, 2 heavy bolters) versus T4 is going to inflict 3.7 wounds before saves are made. With cover, it drops to below 2 models actually killed.

No horde player cares a whit if he's losing 2 guys per turn to your 100 point tank.

sourclams wrote:

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Dakka Pred (1 autocannon, 2 heavy bolters) versus T4 is going to inflict 3.7 wounds before saves are made. With cover, it drops to below 2 models actually killed.

No horde player cares a whit if he's losing 2 guys per turn to your 100 point tank.

Uhh...what the? Horde armies dont have saves. And if they do get saves, so does the 2-3 guys under the plasma cannon template. So that means 1-1.5 dead guys. Congrats?

You make a point comparison between one and a half predators with extra weapons(you can't have half a predator btw) to 2 Obliterators, I make a comparison between 2 predators and 2 obliterators.

Sir, I asked where he got heavy bolters from BECAUSE HE DID NOT MENTION HAVING HEAVY BOLTERS IN THE ORIGINAL POST! HE MENTIONS A PRED WITH A HAVOC LAUNCHER AND A FLIPPING DOOM SIREN! IF YOU THINK THAT MEANS I DON"T KNOW WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT YOU ARE READING TO FAR INTO A THREAD YOU HAVEN"T READ YET.

I'm sure you're here just to argue. Sorry for caps, but jeez man, it's like arguing with a wall here.

And finally, if you've played horde players so much but haven't encountered one that has figured out how to get covers saves in 5th edition, aka "Cover Save Party Fiesta 2009 Special Edition:Now with More Cover Saves" then you must not be playing 5th edition.

A dakka predator is a heavy bolter & autocannon predator. Im sorry you cant put two and two together when he talks about a heavy bolter.

Anyways, the fact you are comparing 2 70 point preds to two oblits is ridiculous. Im clearly talking about a point to point basis, where a 100 point predator does more than 150 point oblits.

Cover just hurts your argument even more where the 2-3 guys youre hitting are getting 4+ saves anyways. killing 1-1.5 guys, especially when you risk hitting your own guys and overheating your oblits, is not anti horde.

Its funny you talk about talking to a wall when I feel the exact same. Im not here to just argue at all. As much as I hate them, even the "power gamers" who run the traditional lash list agree that against (specifically) hordes, the dakka predator is the better choice.

Im sitting here with some marines and a small blast plate, and its laughable if you think youll hit more than 2 or 3, even if you opponent isnt spreading their guys out.

The guy is clearly a newer player, or at least inexperienced and wants opinions. It is entirely likely that he may overlook details and not include a heavy bolter or something here. Of. Course. I. Realized. That.

A Dakka predator (1 AUTOCANNON AND 2 HEAVY BOLTERS) will get 5 hits. Say, classical Ork example t4
~3.5 of those are Heavy Bolters, so 2 wounds and then another from the 1.32 autocannon hits. Oh my, 3 wounds from a 100 point tank. 150 points of obliterators can make that easy, with the added bonus of blowing away Terminators, or Marines, Meganobs, or what have you to boot.
The blasted cover saves hurt your Dakka Pred just as much, but the Dakka pred can't change it's mind and fire off a multi melta at a dread. This is the basis of why people take Obliterators over Predators. Then you come in and try to say that Plasma cannons are bad at hordes because of a 4th edition mindset (when they were godawful and nobody used them). I'm finished with arguing with you. You won't see it. Go sit across the table with your marines against an IG player whose Executioner is throwing out 5 plasma cannon blasts a turn and think to yourself "I'm glad plasma cannons suck so much because their radius is smaller than how far appart I'm spacing my guys" while you pick up handfuls of models at a time.

I've played both Chaos Marines and my Tyranids in 5th edition and have been on both ends. I've watched plenty of other peoples games and read the battle reports up on Dakka too. Ideally you will keep to the max coherency, as anyone should. It will help against blasts. But it won't neutralize them, and conditions will exist that may in fact prevent you from doing this. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Cover saves hurt, but no more against blasts than other weapons. A multi-melta is just as good at killing some things as heavy bolters are at others and Plasma cannons at even more. Obliterators are valuable and just as good at anything else as far as kill potential goes for the points in the Chaos Codex. This is why they are popular. They aren't an auto-include because that firepower comes with all the vulnerabilities that being an expensive terminator brings. This is the comparison. Their. See it? Know it. Love it. Accept it and this will all be over and for the better, especially to the OP who just wanted some opinions and not a page of people arguing over a silly point thats obvious to everyone but you. I will not post again in this thread.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Dakka Pred (1 autocannon, 2 heavy bolters) versus T4 is going to inflict 3.7 wounds before saves are made. With cover, it drops to below 2 models actually killed.

No horde player cares a whit if he's losing 2 guys per turn to your 100 point tank.

Uhh...what the? Horde armies dont have saves. And if they do get saves, so does the 2-3 guys under the plasma cannon template. So that means 1-1.5 dead guys. Congrats?

See, this is why I think you're playing with a predominantly 4th ed mentality (which does not succeed in 5th, by the way).

A dakka predator wounds T4 3.7 times. It's very simple math. 6 heavy bolter shots, 2 autocannon shots at BS4, 3.7 wounds versus T4.

Everything will have a cover save. This is a simple truth of 5th edition. I don't believe that anybody disagrees with this that has played 5th edition to any extent. Even a 5+ KFF save will cause you to do less than 3 wounds against 6 point Ork boyz.

Your Predator can fire for seven turns and kill less than one squad of Boyz. That is *not* anti horde firepower.

In comparison one direct plasma cannon hit, against a true horde style army, will likely be able to hit 5 or more models. Even if a player is trying to spread them out, it'll still hit 4 or more models. And "misses" will likely hit models as well. In my experience, the "average" amount of models hit with a small blast is about 5. That includes scatters. And that experience comes from playing Orks, IG, and Chaos, all of whom can fire off a whole lot of small blasts.

Blast templates, of any type, are far better anti horde than two to three shot weapons. The only shot-type gun platform that even begins to come close to valuable anti horde firepower is the Eldar War Walker.

Your also discounting the Havoc Launcher which I included. It is a Small Blast as well.

Regardless, I feel it complements a Mechanized list well.