Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Background:

There's an event approaching that I've been pondering going to. I've never been to a tournament larger than FLGS RTT except 'Ard Boyz, and I'm eagerly anticipating this weekend's semi-final round of. There were 20 people at the even this year, and the organizer is hoping for 40-50 this year. As I understand it, there are 4 categories for prizes, and a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in each. when I asked for details of prizes (I'd like to know what I'm trying to win) I was told those details aren't disclosed.

I'd *really* like to know what my entry fee is trying to win. I've included the message I sent him below, and I'd like to know (since I am a noob at things bigger than FLGS RTTs) if I'm being greedy? If prize support at large events are usually split out so widely? I can accept criticism freely, so please advise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to get clarification, you said that there were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place prizes for each of the following categories: Best Overall, best general, best army, best sportsmanship.

Is that 4 categories with 3 prize placements in each in addition to another award? Or, did I misunderstand what you were saying?


Here's my point: Ever been to a poker game that paid out the top 3 places, and 7 people showed up, meaning that first place gets like a whopping $35?

I'm o.k. with spending $35 to try my luck at winning a tournament. I'm ok with spending $35 to try my luck at winning a tournament and losing. I am not o.k with spending $35 to try my luck winning a tournament, doing so, then winning $50 in prizes for 8+ back-breaking and grueling hours hunched over a table to prove my dominance over 50 other people. I've been to RTTs like that, and it pisses me off. 3 hours of gaming at 6 hours total in addition to the breaks between makes a long day, and coming out on top to end up with a total profit of $15 over my entry fee? What the hell kind of a waste of time is that?

And before you say "You go to a tournament to have fun and play," I'd disagree. Take the $35 entry fee off, and its friendly. Friendly games can be had anywhere with anyone: If you're going to attach a monetary requirement and make it a competition, its now something to win.

So yeah....I very much care what my $35 means, and what its attempting to earn me. My army is painted uniquely, with a valid and original (if non-traditional) paint scheme, and I'm a terrifyingly good player. To toot my own horn, I kid you not - I'm sitting at 74 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw with my Orks. I've been to every tournament I can find everywhere, and won them all; I even went to two quarter-final rounds of 'Ard Boyz looking for a challenge and won both of them. I'm looking forward to semi-finals this weekend; Hobbit Hobby made 40 spots and they're all full from people all over the southeast. Hopefully I'll see some real competition, but I'm honestly not worried about not winning it.

And to assuage your doubtlessly growing concerns, I still get almost perfect sportsmanship scores at tournaments. The last RTT, I got 34/36 sportsmanship; I've learned a lot about 40k in the last year and don't freak out over rules I don't know anymore; gaming is a lot more fun now because I'm not expecting everyone to pull the wool over my eyes because I wouldn't know better.
----------------------------
So yeah....I would fully anticipate coming to MiniCon and winning. But I want to know that I'm dedicating a day of my time, an incredibly sore back (disabled veteran here) and $35 towards something that's going to be worth my time. I firmly believe that winners should be generously awarded, and that mediocrity should be recognized for mediocrity.

If you're giving out 13 prizes and have 20 people show up.....that's horrible. Even if you have 40 people show up and are giving out 13 prizes, that's one in three people walking out the door with something that they probably didn't deserve.

Especially if you're going to be pairing based on battle point rank. Game #3, the top two seeds are probably your best two players and one of them is going to take first and one is going to get nothing when he gets stomped on. And then, #2 and #3 prizes go to people who did mediocre and managed to squeak into placing by doing well enough with that minor or major victory to count.

I think you raise a valid point. I too want to know what I am paying for. When I run tournaments (I work at a Knightfall Games) I try to make it very clear what the prizes are going to be. I can tell you if you are playing at a GW Independent retailer than they should get x prize support per year. For example if I am running a sanctioned tournament and only get 6 players, GW will pay for the prizes. BUT, if it is not a sanctioned tourney than it is all best guess. I would suggest talking to the organizer in person if possible and get a direct answer. Then if you don't feel like you are spending your money wisely, walk. That is my suggestion, I hope I am understanding your problem correctly, if not let me know.

@Dash ,

the prize is probably something awful ( i cant think of any reason why an organizer wouldnt be proud to tell everyone what the super prize would be to attract participants.

Dash, mate.
You're greedy. Plain and simple. Was that the actual letter you sent? Bit harsh, and is not going to get the best response. Also, you're a bit too competitive saying 74wins, 1draw and 1 loss (which I believe is utter hyperbole)

Tourney's ARE about fun, If you call 8 hours of gaming back-breaking WORK, then you're in the wrong hobby. As long as the prize is more than the entry fee, don't whinge.

As one of the "mediocre" players, I like to see prizes spattered about all over the place. Yeah, the winners should definately get good-sized prizes, but that doesn't mean they should be the only ones walking away with a little swag. I know if I pay a $35 dollar fee and "win" a $15 dollar blister, it makes me feel spiffy and will probably leave me with a better impression of the event/venue (which is a great way to bring people back next year) even if I lost money overall. That and small "booby-prizes" for the poor guy in last place, had the worst dice, etc is always entertaining.

Yeah, eliminating those could provide bigger prizes to the winners, but generally the winners already have plenty of stuff and/or are really dedicated to the hobby anyway. By throwing prize support at the other people, the store owners/event managers are trying to provide a little encouragment to those who aren't as into the hobby to either stick with it or get more involved/buy more stuff. From a business (and somewhat cynical) standpoint, they already have you hooked, so why spend too much time on you when they can invest their effort into getting other players more engrossed with the hobby.

You could also say that eliminating the mid-level prizes would allow the entry fee to be smaller. However, having a decent-sized entry feel provides a barrier of entry that may/may not lead to a higher level of competition as more casual players might be less likely to pony up $35 versus $15.

I do agree with EF about tournies being more about fun/having competitive games (I would rather lose a tough/close game than win an easy one). If you're looking to make a profit, you're better off playing video games or something professionally.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Dash, mate.
You're greedy. Plain and simple. Was that the actual letter you sent? Bit harsh, and is not going to get the best response. Also, you're a bit too competitive saying 74wins, 1draw and 1 loss (which I believe is utter hyperbole)

Tourney's ARE about fun, If you call 8 hours of gaming back-breaking WORK, then you're in the wrong hobby. As long as the prize is more than the entry fee, don't whinge.

Playing games with your friends is about fun. Playing tournaments is about winning. I have yet to see a tournament where it's about "fun." Playoffs, championships, rankings are about showing who is dominant and who is the best.

Saying a tournament is about fun is correct if you show the priority. i.e. Tournaments are about showing what is dominant over the other but usually the competiters enjoy themselves. I'm an elitist gamer so I associate winning with fun.

Also he isn't greedy. If the tournament organizer is providing non-selling prizes then he should be marked as such. If he doesn't know yet he should say such. As with any tournament you should know what you're getting. Trophies, money, prizes should be announced before a tournament.

@Gornal: Now that I think about it, that's very true. Of course, THIS tourney organizer could just be stingy and want to make a profit.

@Generally everyone: I think he should at least give an idea as to whether it's a cash prize or blister pack (if only to provide motivation) but ultimately, a tourney IS about fun. Like Gornall said, I would rather lose a close game than table a bad player. (Sure it helps if you win a prize, but thinking about the money alone, with no thought about fun, or sportsmanship is simply greedy.) There's no other word for it. You're in it for the money, and nothing else.

Personally, I think EF is being too harsh on Dashofpepper.

It's perfectly valid for Dash to enjoy his gaming in any way that he wants. It's like the 'fluff gamer versus tourney gamer' debates that really sucked. Everyone enjoys playing the games for their own reason, and there's no reason that what's fun for you has to be what's fun for them. If Dash goes to a tournament expecting to win, and to be compensated something worth more than his entry fee, then that's the way he likes to play.

As for the email itself, well, perhaps dash might have come across as a little bit arrogant, but if he goes on to back that up in the tournament, it's perfectly justified. I can understand why it's nice to know what you stand to win, but at some level I think that there has to be trust that the TO is going to make it worth the players' while + entrance fee.

Orkestra wrote:If Dash goes to a tournament expecting to win, and to be compensated something worth more than his entry fee, then that's the way he likes to play.

I agree. I think it would be silly to win the tournament (or even place in the top 3) and not come out ahead. It's also reasonable to know what the major prizes are going to be going in. However, I don't think you should expect ALL the prize money to go to the top guy.

Greedy? No. Arrogant? Yes.

If you want peoples' respect, and if you want him to actually help you out, send them a nicer letter explaining your situation. Granted, if they were getting mouthy with you first, this seems like a good reply, but if they simply said they dont disclose it, theres no reason for you to go off on them like that. I personally wouldnt give a hoot if you didnt show up, because judging by that letter you come off as a person who is going to cause problems anyways (Im not saying you are).

Basically be nicer to people if youre asking for their help or information.

With that said, I agree with your point, but not your execution.

Forenote: I may be arrogant. I don't strut around the internet touting myself as the best (even if I think I am). I referred to my record in that letter it was because the TO told me that winning the tournament should be prize enough. My point in return (through the series of messages) was that I presume I'm going to win when I put my models on the table. I keep being right. That's probably arrogant, but its justified.

Then again, we'll see what happens on Saturday at semi-finals for 'Ard Boyz.


But yeah...I care about winning freebies. Money's not free especially in this economy, and I if I pay money, I want to win enough to make it worth my time.


And yeah...its back breaking work. I'm a disabled vet; my back isn't what it used to be. :( Getting through a tournament requires lots of Motrin and muscle relaxers. =p

*sigh*
When did GAMING become back-breaking WORK?
It's a freaking hobby, mate. Not a job. (Unless you paint and convert for people)

Its back-breaking when I have to stand hunched over a table for hours; my back doesn't like that very much at all. Maybe you somehow accidentally read over the relevant parts due to erratic eye movement? Better that than you just intentionally being obtuse. :( Anyway, that's not the topic at hand; we're talking about prize support and greed.

Soliciting opinions on the idea that 30+% of people should get something, and if wanting to know what those somethings are before shelling out $35 for it is not normal.


For those of you in the know: Do other GTs / Adepticon / other venues announce what the big prizes are beforehand? Or is it a "show up and be surprised by the prizes" approach? The TO mentioned that if I care about loot, I might want to take my $35 and buy a box of orks instead, because they have a lot of costs to offset (cost of hosting, paying for the venue, etc). He mentioned prizes might be "even cooler" than getting GW models, like getting a scratch built slugga or something...*laughing*

And on a random aside, anyone know what prizes have looked like in recent history at any GTs / Independent GTs / etc? I really am a noob about those kinds of things.

I only play in the "for fun" tourneys, like battlefields.

(Prizes limited to a smal trophy, and more about having fun than winning, as the TOs say many times)

However, I'd have to say, fair letter from Dash is fair, if they're being silly. Also, couldnt you take along a folding chair or something similar for your opponents' turns?

A GT experience for only $35? sounds like a deal to me. Posting a PM here seems uncool.... Basically it looks like a setup. Not that is but that it could be taken that way. You can't expect all of the registration fee to go directly to prize support as the TOs have to play for using the venue, terrain, advertising, etc. Personally I'd rather receive a nice plaque if I happened to win an award. There should be great prize support but why should the TOs have to announce it all spelled out ahead of time? Maybe they need time to work out deals with local merchants and GW. it seems very demanding to me. Saying that you wil win best overall and need to know what you'll win to justify going sounds a bit ludicrous.

Carry on.

G

Believe you me, I sit down between turns. =p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green Blow Fly wrote:A GT experience for only $35? sounds like a deal to me. Posting a PM here seems uncool.... Basically it looks like a setup. Not that is but that it could be taken that way. You can't expect all of the registration fee to go directly to prize support as the TOs have to play for using the venue, terrain, advertising, etc. Personally I'd rather receive a nice plaque if I happened to win an award. There should be great prize support but why should the TOs have to announce it all spelled out ahead of time? Maybe they need time to work out deals with local merchants and GW. it seems very demanding to me. Saying that you wil win best overall and need to know what you'll win to justify going sounds a bit ludicrous.

Carry on.

G

Green Blow Fly, I left your name out, and I left Minicon out and made it a generic thread. No one would have drawn a connection between your announcement over in the "Find a game" section with this thread; I made sure there was no link until you just posted. =p It wasn't a setup, I just wanted to know if I'm being unreasonable. Sometimes I am, and at least I'm aware of the fact.

But you've to understand something (like I've been writing to you in PMs): I play this hobby because it integrates my professional military experience into table-top tactics, and because I can pay for the hobby WITH the hobby. You know how MMOs are $15 per month? I play mine for free; the simplest answer is that I'm good at what I do in-game and I give other people in-game currency to buy 30 day time-cards. I play for free. I've sunk about $1,000 into GW models over the year I've been playing, and my investment has netted me some 7,000 points of Tau and at least that many points worth of Orks. That's the draw to me.

I used to debate in high school and college. I had a ridiculous winning record, and you know what I did with all the trophies and plaques? I threw them away when I left the tournament. The only trophy I ever kept was a Boston College oversized coffee-cup; I kept it because it had utility. I guess you could say that I'm practical. If you're going to buy me a Christmas present, get something with utility. A case of toilet paper would be more appreciated than a wall mounted display or other rubbish that serves no purpose.

The same goes for a tournament. I'm practical; I want to pay for something I can use. I don't care about triumphing over other people....the joy in that ran out 6 months ago. Arrogant as it sounds, I don't know how to phrase it otherwise; I expect to win now. I don't scheme and strategize on the table, I expect it. I'd be pleasantly surprised to find myself getting beaten down. Winning is the status quo, not a prize that you can award me, which is why you telling me that "winning should be prize enough" doesn't get anywhere with me. If bragging rights are prize enough, I have enough of those to last a lifetime. And I'm CERTAINLY not shelling out $35 to get more bragging rights. I want loot. Cold, hard plastic sprues. I don't care whether I WIN or not....there *will* come a combination of player, army list, terrain, mission, and personal mistakes that leads me to a crushing defeat. I care that there's a prize that I can set my eyes on and work towards.

Do you REALLY THINK that people shell out cash to play in the World Series of Poker so that they can have bragging rights? No....they play for money. You aren't hosting a fun weekend of open gaming, you're hosting a competitive tournament. Competitions, especially ones that involve monetary barriers to entry require commensurate rewards.

And for YOUR tournament, you're giving away thirteen prizes, which means that a lot of mediocrity is going to be unfairly rewarded. The phrase "May the best man win" gets replaced with "May the mediocre masses be appeased." 30-50% of participants getting awards is ludicrous to me. I realize that I'm a minority here, and that this is simply popular opinion in America. There's a great parallel between what you're doing and the absolute, horrific failure that is our educational system, the subsequent dire lack of intelligent output into corporate America and both the outsourcing of jobs and in-filling of engineering/IT/math jobs by non-Americans. Instead of giving awards to students that excel, now they give awards to everyone so that no one feels left out. Teachers don't want to identify winners and losers because it will make the losers feel bad. These dumb kids grow up thinking that being dumb is ok; no one ever called them out for staring out the window instead of paying attention in class. They weren't singled out for not working harder.

Teacher: "Johnny, what do you want to be when you grow up? An astronaut? Are you sure? Are you sure you wouldn't rather make hamburgers at McDonalds? Well you see Johnny, hard work is rewarded, and your grades you're willing to work to achieve are going to set the tempo for the rest of your life. If this is the best effort you're willing to give, your career after school is going to start and end putting my fries into a container."

I just don't support rewarding the masses for mediocrity. There are winners and losers, and if you establish the bar required to be a winner....people will work hard to get there. If you set it low enough that half of everyone gets to be a winner....winning is now meaningless. Remember when Clinton gave out purple hearts to a bunch of soldiers that got injured joy-riding? And how across the service, better soldiers than them threw their purple hearts away because they were disgusted?

That's all I'm saying: There has to be a standard; being a winner at your GT is meaningless because half the entrants will be winners too. I'll probably choose not to go, but that's not a reflection on your tournament; I'm sure you'll have a lot of people and you guys will have a blast! I'm just not driven by the same things you are, so its just not the right venue for me. Make sense?

Actually you did mention MiniCon. Erratic eye movement syndrome perphaps?

I think last year the best overall winner won $50 worth of gift certificates from local shops plus a sword and a tee shirt plus a paper plaque. Only one person that attended last year complained about the prize support. You can't make everyone happy but we try our best.

let me make sure I get this right... You feel that the person who wins best overall should get the lion's share of the prize support? If so how much, 50%, 75%, 90%? just curious.

G

Dash, if the challenge of playing is gone, maybe offering to help run a tourney could be a better use of your time?

I mean- if winning is a forgone conclusion, stepping up into the more challenging aspects of providing a tournament experience that makes everyone happy might be fulfilling for you.

I often place in the top end of the tournaments, so, I can see both sides of your argument. But, you do have to appease the masses- or they dont come back. Its better to have 1 guy pissed that he didnt win uberfatlewtz, than it is to have 20 guys pissed that they have no chance to win anyhting. For repeat events- 1 guy not coming back is not ideal, but its tolerable. 20 guys not coming back will probly kill the event.

Snap, I missed a reference to Minicon when I was deleting references. I'm really sorry; that was unintentional. :(

As for prize support....I'd say that there definitely should be winners and losers in a tournament. If you're using 4 categories:

Best Overall
Best General
Best Painting
Best Sportsmanship
*some other hippie prize for doing the worst?*

I'd look at it like this. They deserve prizes ranked in that list.

Best Overall: They deserve the most; they probably won all their games, had a well-painted army, and were friendly in their games.
Best General: If this is also the best overall person, I'd give that person both prizes. They EARNED them. I don't believe on grading on a curve or denying an Olympic medalist a gold in a second event just because they already have one.
Best Painting: Painting is important, but this is a competitive tournament, not a painting contest. It should be worth less than best general.
Best Sportsmanship: Sportsmanship is also important, but this *IS* a tournament. I think the best reason for HAVING sportsmanship scores is to make everyone else be on their best behavior. Ultimately, being friendly doesn't win anything, and it should have a token prize. *Congratulations, here's a prize for being friendly; its not a lot because the prize isn't attached to whether you actually brought an army or whether it was painted or not."

Your last prize for the one person who....does something? Blister of casualties is always a good humor prize.

And for breakdown, I'd do something like this: If you had 50 people showing up with $35 entry fee apiece....lets pretend that cost of hosting it isn't relevant since I don't know those things and presume the whole thing goes towards prize support...that's $1,750 worth of prizes.

Best Overall: 50% ($875 in loot)
Best General: 30% ($525)
Best Painting: 15% ($263)
Best Sportsmanship: 5% ($88)
Gimp prize: Its a blister. ($5-10)

If I want people to show up at my tournament...it darn well better be worth attending. Who's going to spend $400 to travel across half the country and bring their Golden-Demon award winning army to a tournament, shell out another $35 to enter the tournament so that they can win $50 in gift certificates? Why would the best players in the country spend cash to travel to a tournament, spend cash to get into the tournament so that they can win $50 in gift certificates from local shops they don't go to, a sword, a T-shirt, and a piece of paper?

If I want a T-shirt, I'll go to the store and buy one.
If I want a sword, I'll go to a LARPing tournament or whatever they do and have the best costume, or the best role-playing. I don't play 40k to win medieval weapons.
If I wanted a certificate saying that I'm a winner, I'd have printed one out myself.

I would make the prizes meaningful. Make people WANT to win them. Make your tournament WORTH attending.

Let me ask this: Why is Minicon a GT? What's the definition of a grand tournament? What makes it different than a FLGS tournament? Hopefully not number of people, because I've been to FLGS tournaments (and one in a warehouse) with as many people. I'd have thought it would be differentiated by the scale of prizes. From your last year's winner prizes....I can spend $5, get into a FLGS tournament and win $50 in store credit. Why would I want to spend $35 for a chance to win the same $50?

That does't make any sense. In a 40k tournament, you should give away 40k prizes. In a fantasy tournament, you should give away fantasy prizes. In a LARPing (live action role play) tournament, you should give away....swords, and magic missiles, and whatever you like.

I've never seen anyone take home that much loot. Even at Adepticon or the Ard Boyz. I think you are a tad delusional. Nothing personal.

G

Mistress of minis wrote:Dash, if the challenge of playing is gone, maybe offering to help run a tourney could be a better use of your time?

I mean- if winning is a forgone conclusion, stepping up into the more challenging aspects of providing a tournament experience that makes everyone happy might be fulfilling for you.

I often place in the top end of the tournaments, so, I can see both sides of your argument. But, you do have to appease the masses- or they dont come back. Its better to have 1 guy pissed that he didnt win uberfatlewtz, than it is to have 20 guys pissed that they have no chance to win anyhting. For repeat events- 1 guy not coming back is not ideal, but its tolerable. 20 guys not coming back will probly kill the event.

I'm not sure you understand my reasoning for being in the hobby. I wouldn't host a tournament that I wasn't playing in; its not what I'm after. My interest in 40k is the gaming itself and learning the fluff (backstories etc) and in tournaments...winning free stuff. I don't care about painting or modeling; I do it because it must be done. I committed to 40k because of the realistic possibility of paying for the hobby by playing in the hobby. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I can't convince myself that $25 is a good price for 5 tiny plastic toys that I have to assemble and paint myself. I could get a remote-controlled, voice-enabled, nerf-missile launching transformer truck from Walmart that unfolds into freaking Optimus Prime for the same price. Spending $5 to win $25 in store credit to buy the box means that the models were actually $1 apiece now instead of $5 apiece. Still outrageously overpriced for something I have to put together and paint myself, but at least I can say that I got it almost for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I've never seen anyone take home that much loot. Even at Adepticon or the Ard Boyz. I think you are a tad delusional. Nothing personal.

G

I've never been to any of those, or any GT or large venue. I TOLD you that. You asked what I would do, and I told you....and I basically broke it down like a poker game.

I'll be at 'Ard Boyz semi-finals tomorrow; first place at each location around the country gets 2500 points of an army. I think that's plenty of loot.

Regardless of the means you use getting there, 1st place should ALWAYS be clearly the 1st place winner. If 1st place wins $50 and 2nd place wins $40, you did something horribly wrong.

I wouldn't say delusional, but yeah, I think that's too high of an expectation. 'Ard Boyz isn't even giving out that much loot at their Semis. As expensive as this hobby is, I don't see how you can expect to pay for it through winning tournaments alone (especially when you factor in plane tickets and travel accomidations). That kind of professional attitude requires things such as sponsorship/advertising that 40k just doesn't have.

As for making sure people want to attend your tournament, you don't do that (solely) through prize support. You do that by offering a well-organized event with competitive/fun games (and well-written scenarios) at a nice venue with fair and responsive judges.

EDIT: If you think the hobby is too expensive, that's fine, but don't expect other players to pay entry fees for prize support so you can subsidize your armies.

EDIT2: Considering how "fuzzy" certain portions of the scores are, having a relatively small differentiation between 1st and 2nd isn't unreasonable. Look at how many times the difference between 1st and 2nd comes down to who got chipmunked less on sportsmanship or painting or something.

Am I too greedy?

No, just obnoxious and if you ask me a bit of an attention whore. Sorry, cant put that any more nicely. Why do you care? Why are you drawing so much attention to it? To me this reads like a veiled attempt at "look at me Im sure to win!! How much should I get??" When we all know people who do things like that (like Stelek) never show up in the end. That way they can just say "Oh I WOULD have won, but it wasnt worth the effort" Thus never having to do the time honored put up or shut up.

No offense man but I wouldn't worry about it.

A fellow greenskin's point of view follows.

Short Story:
Dash, this event isn't for you or gamers of your style.


Long Story:
Rather than drag the name in the mud further, the following quote sources can be found on Dakka if you look hard enough.

As I have said this is a tournament created for the hobbyists.

Check.

That said it is also a competitive event.

Without suitable rewards, from what I've gleaned from this thread.

This event sounds like a great time for those who enjoy the modeling and painting and friendly atmosphere side of the hobby. In fact, I'd love to find a more local setting in GA that would host this sort of event for Fantasy, as it's exactly the type of place that I would want my girlfriend to play a tournament, as that's what she enjoys the most. But I don't think I would pay to attend this event by myself even without the travel, it's not my kind of thing. Next year, go ahead and schedule it for the same weekend as Ard Boyz. I doubt there's much overlap in the player base.

Wow- 800$ in prizes would have people gettin greedy and underhanded in a big way.

But- other factors you should include-
What do the TO's get? theyre putting out alot of time and effort to run the tourney- do you think they should just donate that effort? It never matters how small or large their cut is, the players whisper of conspiracy and how theyre getting robbed

And I think 25% off the top is a very conservative estimate to cover admin, advertising, space rental and any of the other misc factors. Some larger shops can help absorb this if they have a large enough space- as the prize money is generally turned into store cred in exchange for the place to play. But- if a place has to be rented....the cost of transporting tables, terrain, set up all that has to be factored in.

Really, some prizes are nice- but thinking you can get like 20 times more than your entry fee for first place is ridiculous.

If you're all about coming into a game with $$ in your eyes, I think you might be into the wrong game- there are too many wild cards for 40k to have that much cash on the line.

I don't think you're greedy at all.
A prize should be at the veyr least double the entry fee, otherwise, might as well gather up friends and just play with them.

However, if that's the actual email you sent, it was way too agressive.

MoM - Exactly. Tourneys cost money and even breaking even its going to chip into prize support. 30-40 people at what, 20-50 bucks a person isnt a lot of money when you take out expenses.

And those that think TOs should be doing it for free and out of the goodness of their hearts are the same people that would never do such a thing. TOs deserve to get paid more than the 1st place winner in my opinion. You would still be at home asking your wife permission to use the bathroom or watching the kids if it werent for him.

Dashofpepper wrote:Background:

There's an event approaching that I've been pondering going to. I've never been to a tournament larger than FLGS RTT except 'Ard Boyz, and I'm eagerly anticipating this weekend's semi-final round of. There were 20 people at the even this year, and the organizer is hoping for 40-50 this year. As I understand it, there are 4 categories for prizes, and a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in each. when I asked for details of prizes (I'd like to know what I'm trying to win) I was told those details aren't disclosed.

I'd *really* like to know what my entry fee is trying to win. I've included the message I sent him below, and I'd like to know (since I am a noob at things bigger than FLGS RTTs) if I'm being greedy? If prize support at large events are usually split out so widely? I can accept criticism freely, so please advise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to get clarification, you said that there were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place prizes for each of the following categories: Best Overall, best general, best army, best sportsmanship.

Is that 4 categories with 3 prize placements in each in addition to another award? Or, did I misunderstand what you were saying?


Here's my point: Ever been to a poker game that paid out the top 3 places, and 7 people showed up, meaning that first place gets like a whopping $35?

I'm o.k. with spending $35 to try my luck at winning a tournament. I'm ok with spending $35 to try my luck at winning a tournament and losing. I am not o.k with spending $35 to try my luck winning a tournament, doing so, then winning $50 in prizes for 8+ back-breaking and grueling hours hunched over a table to prove my dominance over 50 other people. I've been to RTTs like that, and it pisses me off. 3 hours of gaming at 6 hours total in addition to the breaks between makes a long day, and coming out on top to end up with a total profit of $15 over my entry fee? What the hell kind of a waste of time is that?

And before you say "You go to a tournament to have fun and play," I'd disagree. Take the $35 entry fee off, and its friendly. Friendly games can be had anywhere with anyone: If you're going to attach a monetary requirement and make it a competition, its now something to win.

So yeah....I very much care what my $35 means, and what its attempting to earn me. My army is painted uniquely, with a valid and original (if non-traditional) paint scheme, and I'm a terrifyingly good player. To toot my own horn, I kid you not - I'm sitting at 74 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw with my Orks. I've been to every tournament I can find everywhere, and won them all; I even went to two quarter-final rounds of 'Ard Boyz looking for a challenge and won both of them. I'm looking forward to semi-finals this weekend; Hobbit Hobby made 40 spots and they're all full from people all over the southeast. Hopefully I'll see some real competition, but I'm honestly not worried about not winning it.

And to assuage your doubtlessly growing concerns, I still get almost perfect sportsmanship scores at tournaments. The last RTT, I got 34/36 sportsmanship; I've learned a lot about 40k in the last year and don't freak out over rules I don't know anymore; gaming is a lot more fun now because I'm not expecting everyone to pull the wool over my eyes because I wouldn't know better.
----------------------------
So yeah....I would fully anticipate coming to MiniCon and winning. But I want to know that I'm dedicating a day of my time, an incredibly sore back (disabled veteran here) and $35 towards something that's going to be worth my time. I firmly believe that winners should be generously awarded, and that mediocrity should be recognized for mediocrity.

If you're giving out 13 prizes and have 20 people show up.....that's horrible. Even if you have 40 people show up and are giving out 13 prizes, that's one in three people walking out the door with something that they probably didn't deserve.

Especially if you're going to be pairing based on battle point rank. Game #3, the top two seeds are probably your best two players and one of them is going to take first and one is going to get nothing when he gets stomped on. And then, #2 and #3 prizes go to people who did mediocre and managed to squeak into placing by doing well enough with that minor or major victory to count.

EDIT: This is posted as Frazzled personally and not as a mod:
As someone who's run tourneys in the past. If I received this I would respond with
" off. "

Dash- First off, please avoid using the term Gimp, there are those with dissabilities that take offence to the use of that term.

In general, every GT type event that I've played in has had $100 or more in prizes for the Best Overall & Best General. Hell, most RTT's have at least a $50-$90 first place prize.

If you've only lost one game and drawn another then you should be all set to win the tournament. If you win, you'll get a good prize, if you don't have use for the prize then I'm sure you can sell it and still make some very good money.

'Ard Boys is a sales team gimic, just the amount of product that they sell to people for the 1st round pays for every prize given out in the tournament. Remember, that while a 2500 point army is the 1st prize for a semi final round, the second prize is only a $100 voucher.

Until you are involved in running a tournament and understand the costs of running one include the time involved, location rental fee, table and terrain construction cost, and other factors. 40k is not a poker game, and the costs associated with running a competive tournament are much higher then one.

Dashofpepper wrote:Believe you me, I sit down between turns. =p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green Blow Fly wrote:A GT experience for only $35? sounds like a deal to me. Posting a PM here seems uncool.... Basically it looks like a setup. Not that is but that it could be taken that way. You can't expect all of the registration fee to go directly to prize support as the TOs have to play for using the venue, terrain, advertising, etc. Personally I'd rather receive a nice plaque if I happened to win an award. There should be great prize support but why should the TOs have to announce it all spelled out ahead of time? Maybe they need time to work out deals with local merchants and GW. it seems very demanding to me. Saying that you wil win best overall and need to know what you'll win to justify going sounds a bit ludicrous.

Carry on.

G

Green Blow Fly, I left your name out, and I left Minicon out and made it a generic thread. No one would have drawn a connection between your announcement over in the "Find a game" section with this thread; I made sure there was no link until you just posted. =p It wasn't a setup, I just wanted to know if I'm being unreasonable. Sometimes I am, and at least I'm aware of the fact.

But you've to understand something (like I've been writing to you in PMs): I play this hobby because it integrates my professional military experience into table-top tactics, and because I can pay for the hobby WITH the hobby. You know how MMOs are $15 per month? I play mine for free; the simplest answer is that I'm good at what I do in-game and I give other people in-game currency to buy 30 day time-cards. I play for free. I've sunk about $1,000 into GW models over the year I've been playing, and my investment has netted me some 7,000 points of Tau and at least that many points worth of Orks. That's the draw to me.

I used to debate in high school and college. I had a ridiculous winning record, and you know what I did with all the trophies and plaques? I threw them away when I left the tournament. The only trophy I ever kept was a Boston College oversized coffee-cup; I kept it because it had utility. I guess you could say that I'm practical. If you're going to buy me a Christmas present, get something with utility. A case of toilet paper would be more appreciated than a wall mounted display or other rubbish that serves no purpose.

The same goes for a tournament. I'm practical; I want to pay for something I can use. I don't care about triumphing over other people....the joy in that ran out 6 months ago. Arrogant as it sounds, I don't know how to phrase it otherwise; I expect to win now. I don't scheme and strategize on the table, I expect it. I'd be pleasantly surprised to find myself getting beaten down. Winning is the status quo, not a prize that you can award me, which is why you telling me that "winning should be prize enough" doesn't get anywhere with me. If bragging rights are prize enough, I have enough of those to last a lifetime. And I'm CERTAINLY not shelling out $35 to get more bragging rights. I want loot. Cold, hard plastic sprues. I don't care whether I WIN or not....there *will* come a combination of player, army list, terrain, mission, and personal mistakes that leads me to a crushing defeat. I care that there's a prize that I can set my eyes on and work towards.

Do you REALLY THINK that people shell out cash to play in the World Series of Poker so that they can have bragging rights? No....they play for money. You aren't hosting a fun weekend of open gaming, you're hosting a competitive tournament. Competitions, especially ones that involve monetary barriers to entry require commensurate rewards.

And for YOUR tournament, you're giving away thirteen prizes, which means that a lot of mediocrity is going to be unfairly rewarded. The phrase "May the best man win" gets replaced with "May the mediocre masses be appeased." 30-50% of participants getting awards is ludicrous to me. I realize that I'm a minority here, and that this is simply popular opinion in America. There's a great parallel between what you're doing and the absolute, horrific failure that is our educational system, the subsequent dire lack of intelligent output into corporate America and both the outsourcing of jobs and in-filling of engineering/IT/math jobs by non-Americans. Instead of giving awards to students that excel, now they give awards to everyone so that no one feels left out. Teachers don't want to identify winners and losers because it will make the losers feel bad. These dumb kids grow up thinking that being dumb is ok; no one ever called them out for staring out the window instead of paying attention in class. They weren't singled out for not working harder.

Teacher: "Johnny, what do you want to be when you grow up? An astronaut? Are you sure? Are you sure you wouldn't rather make hamburgers at McDonalds? Well you see Johnny, hard work is rewarded, and your grades you're willing to work to achieve are going to set the tempo for the rest of your life. If this is the best effort you're willing to give, your career after school is going to start and end putting my fries into a container."

I just don't support rewarding the masses for mediocrity. There are winners and losers, and if you establish the bar required to be a winner....people will work hard to get there. If you set it low enough that half of everyone gets to be a winner....winning is now meaningless. Remember when Clinton gave out purple hearts to a bunch of soldiers that got injured joy-riding? And how across the service, better soldiers than them threw their purple hearts away because they were disgusted?

That's all I'm saying: There has to be a standard; being a winner at your GT is meaningless because half the entrants will be winners too. I'll probably choose not to go, but that's not a reflection on your tournament; I'm sure you'll have a lot of people and you guys will have a blast! I'm just not driven by the same things you are, so its just not the right venue for me. Make sense?

EDIT: This is posted as Frazzled personally and not as a mod:
And none of that, NONE OF THAT, means anything to the point. The TO is not going to care how uber awesome you think you are. If you had simply asked for clarification on what the tournament prizes were then you should have receigved a sresopnse. All the other drivel in your original post and this follow on should have gotten you booted from being able to attend.

And for YOUR tournament, you're giving away thirteen prizes, which means that a lot of mediocrity is going to be unfairly rewarded. The phrase "May the best man win" gets replaced with "May the mediocre masses be appeased." 30-50% of participants getting awards is ludicrous to me. I realize that I'm a minority here, and that this is simply popular opinion in America. There's a great parallel between what you're doing and the absolute, horrific failure that is our educational system, the subsequent dire lack of intelligent output into corporate America and both the outsourcing of jobs and in-filling of engineering/IT/math jobs by non-Americans. Instead of giving awards to students that excel, now they give awards to everyone so that no one feels left out. Teachers don't want to identify winners and losers because it will make the losers feel bad. These dumb kids grow up thinking that being dumb is ok; no one ever called them out for staring out the window instead of paying attention in class. They weren't singled out for not working harder.

Lets restate this quote. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.