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asugradinwa wrote:Dash- First off, please avoid using the term Gimp, there are those with dissabilities that take offence to the use of that term.

Yeah, wasnt he complaining about a sore back and being disabled?

Odd..

Can I tell him what you said you say Fraz? Purdy please with a strawberry on top!

G

EDIT: This is posted as Frazzled personally and not as a mod:
No, I just let that message get the best of me and my BS detector went off.

Here is the thing.

We recently had the SoCal Slaughter in Space (a 2-day 40k GT) here in Los Angeles. It was $60 to attend. They had a lot of prize support from GW and from a few local retailers. They actually had the best prize support I've ever seen for a tourney. They gave out 3 prizes for every General, Sports, Army (painting) and a single best overall. They also included 3 prizes for their own fun award, Skull Champion. Now even winning 3rd best sport netted me a terminator squad and a terminator captain blister. Which basically netted me my entry fee. The group winners got a BF and at least another box (so $125ish) which is reasonable. The organizers took a hit to run this tournement. Even with the prize support being supported primairily by GW and local merchants they still didn't break even with around 50 attendees. Venues cost money (most of the money actually). You can normally get guys to volunteer especially if it's a local club running the big event so normally that doesn't chip in to badly.

The thing is your normally not going to get to choose what you get if the tournament has heavy prize support from GW since they have to order the product in advance meaning they don't give out gift certificates. Your stuck with what you win. None of the prizes were noted ahead of time but when you showed up they had them set up halfway thru the 1st game so if you had any questions you could take a look and see what was up for grabs.

Tournaments try to give out excellent support since that helps drive up the attendance at the next event. It takes years before a tournament can become profitable. I'm pretty sure if you ask around here almost no major events run outside of a Con even break even. That being said the numbers you post Dash are insane for prize support. You'll never see anything like it at a tournament run by anyone outside of GW. Even then only Ard Boyz has ever had major prize support.

Basically for $35 it's a steal if it's a well run and prize supported tourney. The main reason for giving out that kind of prize support is because as the tourney grows everything is in place and it encourages more people every year. Heck, I think SoCal Slaughter's Fantasy tourney is almost sold out and they added 2 days of 40k by popular demand so I've now officially seen this practice work.

It might not be the tournament for you Dash and bigger events in general might not be if you go in expecting that kind of prize support from people taking a loss to run the event. Heck, If they paid the guys running some of our local larger tournaments even half of what they get paid an hour at their normal jobs for 2-8 hour(more like 12) days of running the tourney then they'd be even farther in the hole. Basically first place generally winds up with around double the entry fee in set prizes (i.e. they were pre-ordered from GW or donated by local supporters) and most of the others wind up with around or a little less than their entry fee.

Mistress of minis wrote:
What do the TO's get? theyre putting out alot of time and effort to run the tourney...And I think 25% off the top is a very conservative estimate to cover admin, advertising, space rental and any of the other misc factors.

If you're all about coming into a game with $$ in your eyes, I think you might be into the wrong game- there are too many wild cards for 40k to have that much cash on the line.

Mistress, as I've repeatedly said, I don't know ANYTHING about tournaments outside FLGS style. That's why I asked. I originally asked Green Blow Fly about dates, times, prizes, and anything else; he answered everything except prizes, so I honed in on asking what prizes would be....he basically said, "None of your business, we don't disclose that kind of information." That's fine; I don't spend money when I don't know what I'm spending it on. I'm ok with admin costs and everything else that goes into running a tournament, but if you can't even tell someone HOW prizes will be broken down....that's kind of shiesty.

For all I know, 1st place at the tournament gets a piece of paper saying, "HAHAHA LOSER!" Yeah....I'd like to know what I'm aspiring towards. If you or anyone else is unfamiliar with goal-setting, then you must not be a part of corporate America.

Gornall wrote:I wouldn't say delusional, but yeah, I think that's too high of an expectation.

That's why I made this thread....I don't know what expectations are appropriate because I have no experience in this area at all.

asugradinwa wrote:Dash- First off, please avoid using the term Gimp, there are those with dissabilities that take offence to the use of that term.

First off, I don't care. Those who take offense to the word gimp can grow thicker skin or choose to not read internet forums where other people post. I don't care of obese people are offended at the word fat. Get over yourself. I fit into the gimp category and feel NO qualms about using the word. Thanks for playing.
------------------------------------------------------------------
And I messed up my multi-quoting which deleted my response to Frazzled (probably for the better), so I'll shorten it up to this: You've apparently ignored the entire thread in favor of flaming me. Nice one. I made this thread because my request for clarification on what prizes would be was met with "None of your business, we don't disclose that information." So I made a thread (here) to find out if that sort of request was unreasonable. The thread has progressed elsewhere, but that's why it was made.

To Hulksmash: The numbers I quoted aren't my prize support expectations. Green Blow Fly asked me what I would do. I've said it repeatedly, I don't know anything about anything outside of FLGS type competitions. So in a perfect world, here's how a poker game works, and here's how it would apply to 40k.

I've willingly admitted many times throughout here that I don't know what's going on, which is why I asked in the first place. Its sort of degenerated since then though. :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
If you had simply asked for clarification on what the tournament prizes were then you should have receigved a sresopnse. All the other drivel in your original post and this follow on should have gotten you booted from being able to attend.

Did you read the FIRST paragraph of my FIRST post which consisted of two sentences detailing that I asked for clarification about tournament prizes and was told "We don't disclose?" Presuming you did....why are you flamebaiting my thread?

Dashofpepper wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
And I messed up my multi-quoting which deleted my response to Frazzled (probably for the better), so I'll shorten it up to this: You've apparently ignored the entire thread in favor of flaming me. Nice one. I made this thread because my request for clarification on what prizes would be was met with "None of your business, we don't disclose that information." So I made a thread (here) to find out if that sort of request was unreasonable. The thread has progressed elsewhere, but that's why it was made.

Again I am not posting as a mod
The BS detector is going off again. I was quoting your posts. if you feel quoting your own posts is ignoring them, you're sadly mistaken.

But I'll repeat my earliest reply for clarification. If you are looking for advice I'll posit-send the first line only. Thats a simple request for information. If you send the rest of it my reply of off stands.
If you have already sent that then I am sure their response was equally to the point.

I'll leave the gimp comments for moderators but will note it likely won't be positive if this thread is reported. This ain't the internet. This is Dakka. You always have the option of re-editing your comment in that area.

I'm going to preface what I say with saying that I am Dash's wife.

A couple of things:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

He did not exaggerate his wins/losses/draws. That is his record. Granted, he is playing MY army, but Tau are not as fun as Orks.

I personally agree with making prizes worth the effort. I hate RTTs because you can be torpedoed if there's just one guy who doesn't like you as a person. Nothing to do with your gaming/painting/sportsmanship; they just want to be TFG. Nothing you can do about it, and so I won't play in them. I don't like the chance of winning all my games and then still losing the tourney. That would make an ugly scene.

Generally, Dash wins his games. He has tactic training that not a lot of guys get. He's able to use what he has learned in the army and use that for his hobby. It's a win/win for him. If that means we can play this hobby for free, why is that a bad thing?

I agree that this tourney is probably not for him, and now that this is out there of which one and who is the TO, I would be concerned about fairness and equality. He may be sounding arrogant, and I told him he was too, but his feeling about it is, "It's not bragging when it's true."

There were a lot of PMs leading up to Dash posting here. He really was wondering if he was being unreasonable. He only posted because he didn't get anything from the TO except "prizes are secret". I get that they may not all be worked out (donations and such), but he could at least have given what was given away last year, etc. He did not do that until this thread.

My personal feeling is that, no, it is not enough just to win bragging rights. I want something tangible. I want to be able to point at my minis and say "I won those stormboys from an RTT in Durham"...and I gave them pink tutus. Just saying.

I am trying to understand the connection between " I win lots and lots" and "I want to be in a tourney with lots of prize support." Why keep saying that? Who cares?

Lets assume you're the most Badboy mini playing mofo since Mauleed. Great and I'll look to you for tactical advice. But that has nothing to do with prize support. To want a lot of support or inversely not care are both valid viewpoints, but the constant harping about your uberness is: 1. irrelevant; and 2. instantly sets more reasonable people than me off. I know what the reaction of the TOs would be.

-If the support is not sufficient then DON'T GO.

-If their response to date has been insufficient then DON'T GO.

Hulksmash wrote:Here is the thing.

We recently had the SoCal Slaughter in Space (a 2-day 40k GT) here in Los Angeles.

The coolest tournament I've attended so far. Bar none!

Frazzled wrote:I am trying to understand the connection between " I win lots and lots" and "I want to be in a tourney with lots of prize support." Why keep saying that? Who cares?

Let me AGAIN quote myself AGAIN in hopes that you won't ignore it this time? By the way...pressing the "quote" button doesn't mean you read and comprehended.

So here's take #3.


1. I asked Green Blow Fly what prizes were.
2. He said "We don't disclose that information."
3. I said, "I have trouble spending $35 on an entry fee if I don't know what its being spent on."
4. He said, "Winning should be prize enough."

*NOTE* Here's the important one.
5. I said, "Its not prize enough. I already win, I win pretty much everything, I expect to do so at this point, so its not even a surprise anymore. Winning is a MEANS to an end, where the end is prizes, not an end in itself. Especially when there is a $35 entry fee involved. I can win for free anywhere without having to pay $35 to do so"

6. I then came and posted here asking whether not disclosing prizes is the norm, and if my expectations of knowing what I'm competing for are unreasonable.
7. Some people said yes.
8. Other people said no.
9. Green Blow fly showed up and identified himself as the tournament organizer in question.
10. More posts followed.
11. Some random person objected to the word "gimp" being used.
12. I loled.
13. You posted flame-bait.
14. Other people posted more stuff.
15. Some other random person interjected that gimps are allowed to use the word gimp.
16. I loled again.
17. I responded.
18. Other people posted.
19. You posted again.
20. I'm posting now.

Same page now? I already established (much earlier in the thread that you're posting in but not reading) that I'm not going because this doesn't appear to be the right venue for me; but I appreciate your advice nonetheless.

And I'm not normally abrasive; I only get that way when someone else (you in this case) starts it.

Dodiez wrote:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

If the local store calls people of a certain ethnicity something that starts with a N does that make it ok for him to call people that as well?

Dashofpepper wrote: I already win, I win pretty much everything, I expect to do so at this point, so its not even a surprise anymore. Winning is a MEANS to an end, where the end is prizes, not an end in itself. Especially when there is a $35 entry fee involved. I can win for free anywhere without having to pay $35 to do so"

The following comment is made not as a Mod but as a poster:
And here's where you started with your arrogant nonsense about being uber player. I'll restate one last time as you appear to not get the point much.

No one cares how uber you are except it lets us all know the level of your arrogance is nearly mythic. That adds nothing to your message, except to shine a little drama on yourself. You've taken a valid question and desire for prize support for dashed that puppy against a rock.

As I noted: if the information is insufficient for you, then don't go. Quit harassing them.

Just a heads up on how things generally seem to work nowadays.

If it is a GW sponsored event then the team running it gets pretty good prize support which they order a few weeks in advance. This is normally slated for the GT Circuit. These need the prize support since most of them generally take a loss unless they already own a large gaming area that can hold enough people. And even then the people working the event are rarely paid.

The Con circuit is generally helped out a little by GW support but most of the support comes out of the club/store's yearly support (i.e. Game Empire runs a RTT at a con they have to use some of their yearly store support for prizes) and from local sponsors though this is normally not seen out of GT level events.

Then there is the FLGS which is based on their ordering account how much they get in support yearly for events. This is just based on what I've seen and having spoken to several of the guys that run local events.

Now saying that I do think you could have coached your questions more effectively and gotten a much better response. You seem to have an excellent grasp of the game from our conversations and seem like a very solid player but you do have a tendency to throw you record into a lot of conversations which can make peoples hackels rise.

As for prizes telling you what was given last year doesn't have any bearing though on what is given this year. The reason being that based on the success, proper promoting, better in town connections, and less start-up (i.e. the terrain is already made) it means that the prize support from last year could bear absolutely nothing in comparison to this year. The only time you generally see prizes announced at larger tournaments before the event is when they have something like a FW Warhound grand prize type thing.

@Asugrad

You coming down for the Slaughter this month?

Wow...Dash you just get back from a suspension and already start in with arguements and insults? I don't think that I would go that way...

Anyway, to answer your question directly - Yes, you are too greedy.

Tournies, both how they are ran and the prizes they give out, are fully up to the discretion of the TO. If you don't like the way a certain TO does things, don't go to his tourney. It is really very simple. Not liking the way a TO does things doesn't give you the right to go online and badmouth him when you haven't even attended his event yet.

There is no "professional" league for 40k, so only playing to make money/prizes is actually kinda silly. There are plenty of formats in which you can use your "tactical genious" and take home loads of money and prizes; unfortuantely for you, 40k is not one of those venues.

Also, on a personal note, please stop throwing around the disabled Vet card, making it sound like it makes you better than others or more special somehow...it is demeaning and insulting to the rest of us disabled vets...Semper Fi!

Dash- I think the majority of the tone you're receiving on this topic is from the email you provided a copy of in your OP.

It basically comes across as 'Im so uber wonderful that I'll only grace your tourney with my magnificence if the money is enough to justify my wondrous presence. Because, after all, you guys suck if you cant provide X % of prizes".

For someone with a debate background, you may be overlooking how your choice of rhetoric will be taken by most people. Perspective is a powerful thing, and while you make mention if seeking it- it got lost in the rest of what you were saying.

Hulksmash wrote:

@Asugrad

You coming down for the Slaughter this month?

Naw, too much going on with weddings, a class reuinion, and 'Ard Boys. Plus, on the off chance I win the semi finals I'd like to go to the Windy City for the finals so I'm saving some cash for that. I'll be down for the next Slaughter in Space in 2010 though.

asugradinwa wrote:

Dodiez wrote:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

If the local store calls people of a certain ethnicity something that starts with a N does that make it ok for him to call people that as well?

I think the fact that you're willing to even COMPARE the two is the most horrifically insulting thing I've seen on the internet in.....ever.

@OP:

Your guestimate on prize support based on entry fees is very unrealistic. $150-200 is a very generous amount for 1st place. The local RTTs are club run and as such, after paying for venue and lunch, $120-$150 TOTAL is left over for all the prizes, usually just breaking even for an event with 20 participants. The club sometimes dips into the red to maintain reasonable prize support due to reduced turnout. Granted, this scales with tournament size and entry fee - however, many intangibles remain, as larger tournaments require greater logistical overhead. As there are lots of financial factors at work here, had it not occured to you that prize support may not be announced until the day of the tournament due to factors outside organizer control, such as: Support from GW / FLGS, volunteer availablility and paid help, food costs, venue issues outside of their control, ACTUAL player turnout etc.

At any rate, if you feel that the TO's response is unsatisfactory, and/or the prize support is insufficient - why go to all the effort to keep pressing him? If he's as unreasonable as you think, one would expect a "tactically minded" individual like yourself to know that you can't win a war of words with someone who is obstinately unreasonable. At the end of the day, the tournament will still be run in the way that the organizers want it to be run, and the measure of success is whether the participants enjoyed it. If you do not like the format, you are free to NOT participate. To insist otherwise reeks of arrogance and entitlement.

Dashofpepper wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:

Dodiez wrote:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

If the local store calls people of a certain ethnicity something that starts with a N does that make it ok for him to call people that as well?

I think the fact that you're willing to even COMPARE the two is the most horrifically insulting thing I've seen on the internet in.....ever.

Didn't you just type this:

First off, I don't care. Those who take offense to the word gimp can grow thicker skin or choose to not read internet forums where other people post. I don't care of obese people are offended at the word fat. Get over yourself. I fit into the gimp category and feel NO qualms about using the word. Thanks for playing.

It's a simple question for the OP. Does he want to continue chasing prize support at a local level (which has been lucrative for him) or eschew that in favor of proving himself among better competition?

As others have said, the prize support at bigger tourney is larger, but often not enough to defray your total costs for the event. GW tourney regulars understand this, hence their motivation for attending is usually about winning and not prizes.

So to the OP, it's your call. Figure it out. I don't see how this personal decision warrants umpteen 500-word posts on the topic.

Alerian wrote:Wow...Dash you just get back from a suspension and already start in with arguements and insults? .....

Pot, meet kettle. :( I wish you folks would be more concerned about the actual discussion instead of throwing insults and pandering about whether "gimp" is an offensive word to use in a sentence.

Please stay on topic.


The question being asked:


Is it a reasonable expectation to want to know what prize support is at a tournament before going?

No need for more flaming, just a discussion of that question.

Whoo! That was a lot of reading.

With regards to the term "gimp": Yes, it can be a pejorative term for a person with a disability, but it can also be a BDSM submissive, which seems equally likely in this original usage. Since there are legitimate uses of the word, and Dashofpepper did not refer to a disabled person, then I think it's acceptable usage.

I am going to bring this up in the moderator's forum for further discussion, though.

...and just to keep this on-topic:

It's not unreasonable to want to know what the prize support is, but don't be shocked if you don't get told ahead of time. This is one of those "If you don't like it, go play somewhere else"-type situations, and it's always good to ask politely. The tournament organizer has every right to run a tournament as they see fit (some people hate how Adepticon is run, and it's a very popular Con), and as long as they don't change anything after you've ponied up (without giving you a back-out option), they've held up their end of the deal. You're looking for a specific type of tournament, and it may take you a while to find one that really suits your needs.

Dash I am not sure yet what exactly will be the prize support. I still have attempt soliciting support from local merchants and hopefully GW as well. It sounds like you would not have been happy with what we gave out last year. I don't remember seeing most TOs advertise what will be the prize support prior to other events. I think we will have some nice loot this year.

Carry on.

G

Dashofpepper wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:

Dodiez wrote:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

If the local store calls people of a certain ethnicity something that starts with a N does that make it ok for him to call people that as well?

I think the fact that you're willing to even COMPARE the two is the most horrifically insulting thing I've seen on the internet in.....ever.

Actually, both Disabled Americans and Minorities are protected from discrimination by Federal Law, so it isn't as much as a stretch as you think.

Using deregatory terms for anyone is uncalled for, cruel, and insulting. Personally, I would discipline my children for using either term when talking about an individual.


As for your pot-meet-kettle comment,
1. I have never been suspended from this site.
2. I have never made personal attacks or insults on this site
3. All of my discussions and comments fall within the ruels fore this site...I do not start personal arguements.
4. All that I have done was politely asked you to stop making personal attacks, and using your disability as a trump card in this discussion, because I find it insulting.

Frazzled wrote:

Didn't you just type this:

First off, I don't care. Those who take offense to the word gimp can grow thicker skin or choose to not read internet forums where other people post. I don't care of obese people are offended at the word fat. Get over yourself. I fit into the gimp category and feel NO qualms about using the word. Thanks for playing.

Frazzled, the fact that you're gleefully willing to stick potentially the worst racial slur into the same category as "fat" is abysmal. If you haven't anything relevant to post, then please do not. See above post; there's a question under discussion stemming from the OP. Instead of answering it and contributing, you're choosing to be flame-bait; seriously, please stop.

Dashofpepper wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:

Dodiez wrote:

He said "gimp" because that is what a lot of our local stores call the prize given to the one who loses a lot. Complain to them.

If the local store calls people of a certain ethnicity something that starts with a N does that make it ok for him to call people that as well?

I think the fact that you're willing to even COMPARE the two is the most horrifically insulting thing I've seen on the internet in.....ever.

Using a derogatory word to discribe a "worst player" prize is an insult to me. Having lived my entire life with a phsyical dissability and being called that word many of times in my life I would hope that people would be willing to not use the term once it is pointed out that it causes offence. For many of us that grew up with the stigma attached to a physical disability, the two words are not much different.

Iorek wrote:Whoo! That was a lot of reading.

With regards to the term "gimp": Yes, it can be a pejorative term for a person with a disability, but it can also be a BDSM submissive, which seems equally likely in this original usage. Since there are legitimate uses of the word, and Dashofpepper did not refer to a disabled person, then I think it's acceptable usage.

I am going to bring this up in the moderator's forum for further discussion, though.

Indeed; the gimp award is the award given to whomever got beaten down the hardest.

Ok before, this was "most pretentious thread ever."

Now it also wins "most fail thread ever" by default for your wife having to come on and defend you.

Congrats, the internets are now imploding at the idea.

But seriously, you have had your attention so make a new thread or move on. It was obvious from the beginning that is what you wanted, no one makes a thread over a tourney that is only $35 entry because they are unsure if the "investment" is worth it. Besides I think you'll find when you step outside of 5 man RTTs you are a small fish in a big pond instead of the other way around. That wouldnt be good for your ego so maybe you should stay in your comfort zone.

PS Frazzled you and the other mods are why I come to Dakka and not warseer. You dont coddle BS.

asugradinwa wrote:
Using a derogatory word to discribe a "worst player" prize is an insult to me. Having lived my entire life with a phsyical dissability and being called that word many of times in my life I would hope that people would be willing to not use the term once it is pointed out that it causes offence. For many of us that grew up with the stigma attached to a physical disability, the two words are not much different.

See MOD's post and get over yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanamaG wrote:Ok before, this was "most pretentious thread ever."

Now it also wins "most fail thread ever" by default for your wife having to come on and defend you.

Congrats, the internets are now imploding at the idea.

But seriously, you have had your attention so make a new thread or move on. It was obvious from the beginning that is what you wanted, no one makes a thread over a tourney that is only $35 entry because they are unsure if the "investment" is worth it. Besides I think you'll find when you step outside of 5 man RTTs you are a small fish in a big pond instead of the other way around. That wouldnt be good for your ego so maybe you should stay in your comfort zone.

PS Frazzled you and the other mods are why I come to Dakka and not warseer. You dont coddle BS.

Cool beans; another troll! *gives a cookie*

This thread is only what it is because folks like you keep showing up to de-rail it. The question is WHETHER OR NOT ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE OF PRIZE SUPPORT IN A TOURNAMENT is a reasonable expectation or not. Address the question or GTFO.

Modquisition On:
As Mod Iorek noted, lets swing focus back to the essential topic:

Is it a reasonable expectation to want to know what prize support is at a tournament before going?

Lets all (myself included) just address that.
Modqusiition off and apologies to Iorek if stepping on toes.

To that point-no it is not unreasable to query that within the bounds of what information is available. I'd posit that GBF's answer is perfectly acceptable at his point of writing.

EDIT: upon reading the posts between Iorek's and my typing its gotten worse. I am going to close this thread an open a new one For Dash to clear all the static as its fair to address the topic vs. the noice (including noise from myself).