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I've been playing Warhammer for 8-1/2 years, and I've never seen so much vitriol directed at one army book (especially since the so-called 'announcement' that the guy who wrote it is doing the Necron Codex). Not even current VC gets this much hate sent its way.

Granted, I have yet to play against the book, but I've flipped through the book several times, and nothing particularly glaring stands out to me.

Am I missing something?

There are lots of reasons. I play them but I stay away from the automatic leadership 's like the Masque & banner...Slaanesh in general are my main problems with the book Other than that they can hammer you with magic, beat you down in combat, shoot fairly well & move really fast. I dunno why people have problems with that?

Slaneesh Daemon bombs and effects that work on undead and things immune to psychology don't make sense off the top of my head.

Pretty much everything in the book, other than the Slaaneshi units, is undercosted substantially. The magic is amazing. The "magic items" (which don't count as magic items for the purposes of stuff which stops magic items, BTW) include some of the most broken and undercosted stuff in the game. Most egregiously all the BSB banners, and the Bloodthirster's 25pt "re-roll all failed hits and wounds, I don't give a damn about taking on any ranked block from the front" power.

Play a few games against a tournament daemon list.

The thing most people I play have a problem with is the spamming of harder hitting units and items/upgrades. LD bomb armies ot nurgle heralds all with powerful bound spells are the thing that usually break the camel's back. People also really have problems with the nurgle spell that makes most of your stats 1. I've seen one guy just quit a game because his star dragon prince was in combat with a GUO that had cast the spell.

We don't let Daemons play at our gaming club. The army book is outright stupid and overpowered, and you'd better have a damn good excuse for bringing them to a friendly tournament.

Personally I don't see them as that bad. Sure some of the are pretty good but the only ones that I have seen that are ridiculous are nurgle stuff. Nurgle is just insane how good they are. Slannesh is good of course but not unbeatable specially if you can outshoot them before they reach you.

Bloodthirsters.

Flamers.

Plaguebearers.

All utterly broken.

The problem is this: GW created this new army and wanted to make new models/ redo all existing models for the line. They needed to make sure that the models sold, especially after taking said demons away from fantasy mortals players and 40k chaos players. How do we do that, they asked themselves. The answer is simple.
If you make the list completely over the top to the extreme of making it virtually point-and-click to win, then everybody will want to play with them. More specifically:

The aforementioned Slanneshi Ld. bomb.
Under-costed characters. Have you seen the prices on some of those special characters? Very cheap for what they do.
Magic items that cannot be cancelled.
Psy effects that even affect ITP units.
Overpowered everything. The Thirster and Flesh hounds come to mind here.
It is sad, but this list can go on and on.

To sum up, they pole vaulted past 'codex creep' to ensure the line sold.

It also depends on who is playing the army. You get the people who are power gamers and only just care if they win, not really looking at the fun part of the game.

Right now I'm trying to make a softer list with just using heralds. I know people are probly thinking not to hold my breath but it can be done. It just takes some extra effort.

Heralds are amazing too, though generally not as broken as the Greater Daemons. A Khorne herald on a Jugger is one of the best HTH characters in the game, and is so much cheaper than a Chaos Lord that it's absurd.

The Thirster item is reroll HITS only I'm afraid, so not quite as insane as reroll wounds as well.

15 points for a 3+ AS on a T6 flying character is also insane.

Ld bomb armies are just dull - althoyugh it doesnt really effect VC, their main rival.

Actual MAGES as core makes a huge difference: 360 points gets you 3 core blocks with a 5+ ward, 3 dispel and 3 power dice to cast a 4+ magic missile which can deal 7 strength 7 hits. Did i mention it is core? and causes fear?

However DE can have more broken builds, hotek dragon lords that stuff your magic phase up turn 1 being one of them.

Cheese Elemental wrote:We don't let Daemons play at our gaming club. The army book is outright stupid and overpowered, and you'd better have a damn good excuse for bringing them to a friendly tournament.

What's a friendly tournament?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ld bomb armies are just dull - althoyugh it doesnt really effect VC, their main rival.

Actually this does. They thrash your leadership and make you stupid which means you can't cast spells~VC loss. They also have those gifts which make you take a LD test to attack, so your vamps hardly ever get swings on the daemon characters.

I think the herald lists are just as nasty as the GD's because your army is bigger and heralds are force multipliers unlike the giant monsters.

My first experience with demons was round 2 of a tournament. Mostly nurgle demons played by a newb. I ran over most of the special stuff (flamers, HoK on jugger) but when i hit his plague bearer unit in the flank and in round 3 and was not able to kill the damn thing, not to mention the havoc the flesh hounds caused (killed my stegadon after IT charged THEM). Only reason I won that game was because I got lucky with my salamanders taking the GUO below half wounds.

And thats it right there, it came down to luck. This kid fell for every feint, got completely outmauneuvered, and it was only luck that i won... That is frustrating....

That said I am going to the Dark Side. I won my 40k 'Ard Boyz semis and will be getting demons and dual basing most of em (yay magnets).

ME <--------- Hypocrite?

Maybe

Daemons are the best army book. This makes the people who have non daemon armies sad. So they complain. Not hard to understand.

This happens every time a strong book comes out. The difference this time is that its a new army that is the strongest. No existing partisans, who have payed their dues by struggling along with an ancient army book for x years. Thus, folks can be united in their stirring defense of mediocrity.

[quote=Bat ManuelActually this does. They thrash your leadership and make you stupid which means you can't cast spells~VC loss. They also have those gifts which make you take a LD test to attack, so your vamps hardly ever get swings on the daemon characters.

I think the herald lists are just as nasty as the GD's because your army is bigger and heralds are force multipliers unlike the giant monsters.

It'd be fine if they were the best armybook, but they're not just the best. They're the most ridiculous piece of feth-tarded crap that GW has ever had the gall to place out into their store shelves.


I don't care if they release a new armybook that is strong, but damn it, this is just ridiculous. They affect ItP! REALLY? What the Feth! (wow, that sounds lame, lol)

Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly play a Daemon Player, even if it's the most drop dead cheesy piece of s**t list there is, but don't expect me near tourneys with Daemons running about, and other armybooks in need of serious update.

Yeah, who would expect you to go to a tourney where you faced strong competition. That would be unreasonable.

40kE, I take it that you do not consider the WH: Daemons army book to be anything particularly unusual?

I've never been a codex creep complainer, but IMO the Daemons book contains a higher than usual percentage of design fail. And this is from someone who happily played against SoC Daemons.

No, it'd be unreasonable if there was only 1 race winning most of those tourneys

Oh, wait....

I was looking through the daemon army book and on pg. 64 at the very top it says "With a Daemon army, you get to be the ultimate bad guy!" I find that sort of funny . Jokes aside, I wish I could have played daemons when the SoC rules were still good. That way I'd be getting the same daemony goodness without the extreme bells and whistels.

Wow after reading all of this I am afraid to take my Tomb Kings off the shelves.

Cryonicleech wrote:No, it'd be unreasonable if there was only 1 race winning most of those tourneys

Oh, wait....

Could you explain this to me. I am still a bit new to the WHF scene.

It's a little bit of Sarcasm on my part, honestly.

Don't worry, you can still play your games and tournaments as Tomb Kings, I'm just stating that almost anyone, regardless of experience level, can write up a good daemon list. They're just a cheesy army, plain and simple.

They're not like Dark Elves, or Vamps, which can be cheesy, but beatable cheese. Once you find your particular combo/build the Daemon army can roll through your opponents with ease, regardless of tactics or luck.

I have to disagree.i have played against the unbeatable Daemon lists and found them to be easy to predict.In case you are wondering i play O&G.Yes thats right you CAN win with them against the uber armies being played.Actually it is rather funny watching my opponent get angry when he does not roll over me on turn 3.

Ok, I am being way too pessimistic.

I'm just pissed that GW would decide to make The One Army Book to Rule them All for about a year, when many of the books were nearly balanced.

Yes, it's not impossible to win. But you really have to think about it.

DE are, when played well, stronger than the non-SC Daemons list.

Ring of broken dragon lord feths up the magic phase turn 1. Blood thirsters get shot to pieces (2xrbt plus normally 4x10 rxbmen = 80 shots) making them easy meat in combat (esp as its rerolls to hit and not to wound - it normally needs 6/7 hits and all wounds otherwise its screwed by itself) and you have enough magic to take otut he rest, along with better static combat troops.

Not sayign its easy, but a good DE player beats out a daemons list more often than not. Which is why our local scene has placed DE in the same comp band as daemons, whereas before Daemons were on their own as the hardest army.

The problem for GW is that the daemons are so hated, people are not picking them up as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th army.

Sure the kids might take them as their first army.

I'm doing them in 40k, but will not touch them in WHFB.

They are so comp hit the last 2 tourneys they did not have a single player and the 2 before that had 1 player, and he scored minimum comp and was crippled so badly he finished mid pack despite winning all games except a tie vs me (I was playing to tie not to win).

10 simple problem solvers to make daemons competative but fun:
1: Tone down the magic
2: Magic items are items.
3: Make the magic items more realistically costed.
4: Screamers fly in a straight line.
5: Make flamers 3 shots each (and lower the points)
6: Flesh hounds have 1 wound (and lower the points)
7: Nurgle herald adds +1 to the ward save.
8: Ward save not available vs magic and etheral attacks.
9: Add 75 points to the Bloodthirster cost (as his upgrades were also raised)
10: You can only take 1 of each item (except for the dispel scrol equivalent)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also most players I know at clubs around town refuse to play them in friendly games.

I picked up the Daemons for my 40K list and am really looking forward to playing them as my first army in Fantasy.

Maybe instead of whining about how horrible they are to play against, you guys could think of them as a great way to get someone to learn Fantasy as a starter army. Then, when they are ready for a challenge they could step up to a tougher army.

In my case that tough army will be Ogres (I rec'd a battalion + sundry others for Xmas) but losing every week would cause me to lose interest in the game quickly.

Again, if you want more players to play against, you had best grow the hobby and nothing does that like success.

They really arn't that bad. I remember playing them for a spell getting completely mauled 9/10 times. Specially by elves and the like. Infact one of the few times I won is win my opponent wants to quit like if I make a good move the opponent would blame the army and just be like NO OTHER ARMY CAN WIN AND COMBAT AND HAVE FEAR YOU CHEESE!!!!!! Then they'd rage quit and I'd win like ok.... but really once the Herolds are gone daemons lose alot of there advantages and Greater Daemons just need to be shot and they lose. Yay.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DE are, when played well, stronger than the non-SC Daemons list.

DE are indeed very strong. That said, head to head comparisons aren't the best gauge of strength. Ability against the field is, and performance over time. The fact that DE are still (largely) subject to Psychology makes them inherently less reliable than DoC.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The problem for GW is that the daemons are so hated, people are not picking them up as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th army.

Sure the kids might take them as their first army.

I'm doing them in 40k, but will not touch them in WHFB.

They are so comp hit the last 2 tourneys they did not have a single player and the 2 before that had 1 player, and he scored minimum comp and was crippled so badly he finished mid pack despite winning all games except a tie vs me (I was playing to tie not to win).

10 simple problem solvers to make daemons competative but fun:

The Australian scene is obviously a bit different than some others. You guys have a heavier emphasis on Comp than the UK or US generally. Daemons are a bit more acceptable over here, and generally not seen to require QUITE so many alterations. Honestly a few quick recostings, a slight haircut for Flamers and Flesh Hounds (like getting rid of the second wound), and the ward save going back to being negated by magical weapons and spells (like the Forest Spirit save still is) would probably do it.

Loki_TBC wrote:Maybe instead of whining about how horrible they are to play against,

The question was asked and answered. Levying accusations of whining doesn’t support your point. Rather, it detracts from it by making you appear hostile and combative.

Loki_TBC wrote:you guys could think of them as a great way to get someone to learn Fantasy as a starter army. Then, when they are ready for a challenge they could step up to a tougher army.

Daemons and Undead are inherently bad armies with which to learn the game, as they are Immune to Psychology across the board, denying the player immediate experience with Panic, break tests/pursuit, and Fleeing from charges. All of which are among the more exiting and unique aspects of WH as opposed to 40k.

You do have a point, however, that playing DoC or VC is a pretty good way for a new player to shorten the length of time it takes them to be able to play competitively against experienced players. It is, however, at the cost of developing a more complete set of play skills.