Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

40kenthusiast wrote:@Mannahnin: I sort of agree with your main point, but also sort of disagree. Let's say prior to DoC there was 4 or 5 top tier lists. Call em casty vamps, blitz vamps, thorek gunline, Empire goalie list and blitz brets. I'm oversimplifying (Thorek was probably out by that time, I think High Elves had come out, they ought to replace him), but not by too much.

In addition to HE, I would certainly also include some WE, HoC, and Lizard builds.

40kenthusiast wrote:Nowadays the top tier looks something like: Blitz Daemons, Casty Daemons, Siren Daemons, Empire goalie list, High Elf goalie list, Dark elf "death star" list.

Pretty close. I think new Lizards are pretty solid too. So we go from ~9 builds out of 8 books, to ~7 lists out of 5 books. Less variety, pure and simple.

40kenthusiast wrote:One dex being most of the top tier doesn't seem any different than multiple dexes sharing the top tier. Previous I got to choose between vampires and empire (and High Elves...), now its Tzeentch Daemons or Khorne Daemons (and the previous top tier...). What's the difference?

As I said, IMO there’s a quantitative difference (fewer different armies now compete), which creates a qualitative difference (less variety at tournaments, creating a less varied and enjoyable overall play experience).

40kenthusiast wrote:That's, ultimately, why I don't get the complaining. You are a tourney player, right? Presumably you are similar to me, you'd prefer to play tough games to walkovers? More strong lists is good. More strong lists that bad players can do alright with is better than good. As a bonus, you get a desperate struggle when you meet someone as good as yourself who brought a good Daemon list.

Fewer different armies at tournaments (or at the top tables, which is close to the same thing) = less interesting tournament. More monotony. Yes, I enjoy a nice desperate game too. Though I will confess to becoming a little annoyed when I find myself fighting uphill against someone who is a manifestly inferior player when it comes to actual skill at the game. Fewer things are more irritating than having to teach someone the rules while they beat you (or make you work your ass off). Maybe that's uncharitable of me, and I need to reorient my internal compass on it. Maybe not.

In my opinion people don't like daemons because they are the counter to all the other power armies out there and because they have a couple cool rules.

Vampire counts army relys on fear to push over the enemy...deamons don't care about it.

Swordmasters rely on high str attacks...Daemons don't care about high str vs low strength because of ward save (as opposed to armor save which does care)

Got a great beat stick unit to hit the enemy with...Deamons have one that is just as good if not better depending on the situation.

Got a crazy shooting army that hopes the enemy breaks before they hit you...Deamons wont break and most units can kill shooting units prety easily.

Crazy blitz army that relys on breaking them on the charge...Daemons aren't reliably broken without overwhelming power.

And then they have the whole army wide ward save. Realistically they have always had it. So what. And whats the justification for it going away against magical attacks...because it use to? That is just a classic resistance to change.


There are a few bad things about the deamon army. Most people bitch about other things but ok...

There are easy counters to deamons. Try playing any daemon list against skaven. Take 10 jezzeles, one WLC,. and then as many clanrats and slaves as possible (with whatever chars you wish). The skaven will brutalize the deamons. Any deamon list out there in fact...

Deamons are the counter to the idiotic power lists that were out there before. The balanced lists that rely on ranks and flanks will easily beat daemons.
They just require a different mindset to play against. Most players don't want to adjust to that mindset. They think their beat stick army should still win but doesn't against daemons so daemons are therefore cheesy.

And all that talk about giving a new guy a deamon army and he will beat up on vets...not true.
Give one new guy a deamon army and another a bret army and I bet you that bret will smack the deamons around all day long.

Really, Cypher? Skaven is your answer?

Ld Bomb Slaneesh will see your little rats running...

You can't flank Plaguebearers with a Herald and Slime Trail (err...something)

Ok, Ill give you that.

Although conventional tactics work, Cypher, Daemons have easy answers to almost all of them.

Leadership bomb revolves around special char which is its own level of problems. Throw them in and teclis will ruin most daemon builds out there.

You can flank plaguebearers, you just dont get the +1 for flanking them. You still break ranks so 3 ranks + outnumber over the plague bearer. Are they gonna kill 4 guys a turn or are they gonna slowly lose guys to instability... (by the way, instability is worse than crumbling against small losses).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember, rats next to the warlord are LD=10

Cypher, whether you know it or not, you hit the problem with the demon list right on the head. They are the counter to all the other lists. They have no weakness. That is not the makings for a fun, fluffy army that people want to play. It is the makings of a WAAC army that appeals to all the power gamers out there. No army should be able to do it all. Elves hit hard, but can't take a beating. Dwarves are stolid and solid, but are easily outmanuvered. Vamps have wicked good characters, but their battles rely on those characters living. Every army has a strength and a weakness. Except demons.

40kenthusiast wrote:@BrotherStynier:

Bloodletters are actually pretty bad. Dunno if you play Daemons and they use Bloodletters and still beat you, or if you haven't played em much and are theorycrafting, but they are pretty much the wimpiest choice a DoC player can bring. t3 and a 5+ ward save won't let em swing back if you charge em with some tough guys, or just shoot em.

I play WoC I have no shooting. I was theoryhammering on Bloodletters but still they look like they have potential to be dangerous, at least on paper where theoryhammer is played.

I was also just using them as an example, apparently Daemonettes can get always strikes first if they have the Squad Champion, and all Tzeentch units have flaming attacks. Maybe my theoryhammer is out of hand but the whole codex looks over powered.

Loki_TBC wrote:
My point exactly. If you have to fight, wouldn't you want to pick who you fight and where? As a Daemon player I want to hunt down your precious expensive Lords and Heroes. As someone who wants to keep them alive, you should keep them away from Skulltaker!

Regardless I'm gonna throw my Lord, or one of my Heroes at Skulltaker, them or a large unit of Special Troops are likely to kill him best. Sure it could be costly but its a roll on the "Eye of the Gods" if I win.

Oh and I don't play tourney so that might have something to do with my idea of what Lords should do.

I'm on board with Loki on the Skulltaker point. Even if you have a killy character, you always have to evaluate whether he should be fighting other characters, or (more usually) whupping rank & file guys. Skulltaker's not that terribly hard to avoid, and choosing to walk into him with an important character is bad tactics.

I'm with Mann/Loki. Skulltaker is a known quality. When you see the mini, you can look at his rules, make a decision on whether your chars can beat him. If they are specced for dueling, you've got a shot (as you probably have a good protection from KB, which is his main deal), if you are specced for infantry killing, you've got to avoid him. He rarely gets max overkill vs. a champ, for example.

A thought occurs, not really relevant to this discussion, but vaguely related, as it concerns Daemons. This is a problem in microcosm for all the Daemons. You see their lists, and there aren't any surprises. All their guys have basically one proper loadout.

Spec chars are gimmes, as you can look them up, and most Daemon lists have one or two.

Thirster: Rerolls, 3+ armor save and 2 of 3 of the following (obsidian armor, KB, flaming attacks at +1 str)
Keeper: Siren song, and don't attack unless you pass leadership, and don't attack unless you pass leadership if I hit you
GUO: Balesword, ugolast
LoC: Won't show up, it'll be Kairos
HoK: +1 flame blade, jugger, 0+ armor save
HoS: Siren song, mount
HoN: level 1 mage, ugolast, no flanks
HoT: +1 to pool, or choose your lore, lvl 2 mage, flying

If they have a flying BSB and a keeper they've got the -2 leadership banner. Otherwise they've got the GSS. If they don't call the GSS before the first round, and have a BSB, then its actually hard to guess, probably the big stubborn one, but they are doing it wrong.

The only unit that'll have any upgrades is Nurgle blocks, they'll have the poison wounds count double banner. If they have big tzeentch blocks, which is rare, they'll have the +1 to cast banner.

They are the counter to all the other lists. They have no weakness.

They are not the counter to ALL lists. There are plenty of counters for them. They are just the counter to all beat stick lists that rely on killing your opponent outright in a shower of blood.

Try numbers on them
Try lts of low str shooting (high str shooting doesn't help much).
Try an anvil army
Try any number of a dozen things that give deamons pain. They are out there.


Any time I see someone bitching about daemons I ask them what they play. The answers are always something equally crazy:
Black knight buss
Bretonians with 4-5 long lances (the shooting brets wip daemons without effort).
Multiple black guard backed by dual hydras
Dual treemen
High elves with 12-15 lvls of magic
The list goes on.
Deamons beat these lists but not all lists.

Hmmm the only problem Ive had with trying to avoid Skulltaker was when he was put into a daemonett (think thats spelled wrong) unit with herald (thought it was illigal to put a character w/ MoK into a plague bearer unit for example. But aparently only goes for heralds) And whatever that lash thing is that pulls you directly to the unit. And since my WoC cant back down from challanges <_<

I learned my lesson though... sigh

cypher wrote:

They are the counter to all the other lists. They have no weakness.

They are not the counter to ALL lists. There are plenty of counters for them. They are just the counter to all beat stick lists that rely on killing your opponent outright in a shower of blood.

Try numbers on them
Try lts of low str shooting (high str shooting doesn't help much).
Try an anvil army
Try any number of a dozen things that give deamons pain. They are out there.


Any time I see someone bitching about daemons I ask them what they play. The answers are always something equally crazy:
Black knight buss
Bretonians with 4-5 long lances (the shooting brets wip daemons without effort).
Multiple black guard backed by dual hydras
Dual treemen
High elves with 12-15 lvls of magic
The list goes on.
Deamons beat these lists but not all lists.

Last time I played HE's, I had a combat list. Very little magic, lots of bodies. I was wiped off the map. Lost every model, and inflicted maybe 5 casualties. So if they slaughter HE magic lists and slaughter HE combat lists, then what are HE's supposed to use?

I'm sorry, but everything that I've seen leads me to believe that the book is way over powered compaired to others. When total "newb" players can get outmanuevered all game, fail to make any charges, and all in all just sit there the whole game, and can still pull off victories then there is something wrong.

40kenthusiast wrote: You see their lists, and there aren't any surprises. All their guys have basically one proper loadout.

Spec chars are gimmes, as you can look them up, and most Daemon lists have one or two.

GUO: Balesword, ugolast
HoS: Siren song, mount
HoN: level 1 mage, ugolast, no flanks

The only unit that'll have any upgrades is Nurgle blocks, they'll have the poison wounds count double banner. If they have big tzeentch blocks, which is rare, they'll have the +1 to cast banner.

These aren't the only builds, there are:

GUO: awesome saves, I bleed you bleed- mucus, breath weapon(he never needs to strike first)
HoS: Siren song, can't hit me without leadership test,mount or just the etherblade
HoN: level 1 mage, staff of nurgle

Bloodletters may have the banner of extra charge range. Nurgle blocks only have the poison wounds count double banner if they are using Epidemius, otherwise they have the re-roll wounds banner. If they have big tzeentch blocks, which is rare, they'll have the +1 to cast banner or the bound spell in hth banner.

Question: So are Daemons only "unbeatable" at 2000pts+ or do they still retain their "unbeatable" standard when you can't use Lord choices?

They don't need to greater daemons to be nasty...they are just easy buttons.

Bat Manuel wrote:They don't need to greater daemons to be nasty...they are just easy buttons.

My favourite easy button:

Bloodthirster w/ Dark Insanity (2D6 + 2 Attacks), Immortal Fury (Re-roll failed to hits), and Armour of Khorne (3+ Armour save).

Potentially 14 attacks at WS 10 and S 6 that re-rolls all failed to-hits and wounds just about anything on a 2+.

Hit it on the head right there: Demon's ARE the easy button. They have a no brainer counter for most things in the game. That's why people don't like them.

An entire army, that has ward saves, magic attacks, heralds with statline's of Lords, herald's with str 7 and 0+ save's for under 200 pts that are on highly mobile mounts, units of cavalry (flesh hounds) with good movement, good toughness, high str attacks and number of attacks, a bsb that also is a negative modifier to casting, and negate's their greatests threat Lore of Light.... and I haven't mentioned flying rank breakers who auto break units.

Demon's are the easy button. I play them, I have a balanced, if you can say that, list. I still recognize that I have many advantages to other armies, and only play them at GT or RT level.

And I didn't even mention casting a base 4+ magic missile... oh I did

Daemons = Über cheese of dOOm.
Totally overpowered, an army book made sheerly and purely for abuse. 'nuff said.

Any time I see someone bitching about daemons I ask them what they play. The answers are always something equally crazy:
Black knight buss
Bretonians with 4-5 long lances (the shooting brets wip daemons without effort).
Multiple black guard backed by dual hydras
Dual treemen
High elves with 12-15 lvls of magic
The list goes on.
Deamons beat these lists but not all lists.

Partially true but there in lies the problem is that you have to build a specific list just to hold your own against Daemons. That is how you know it is over powered because you should be able to build a take all comers list and hold your own and if you build specifically against Daemons in a tournament you are in trouble against standard competetive lists.

Just a point to anyone who believes in 'codex creep'-that an army is only competitive for a year.

People have been taking Dark Eldar armies to tournaments since it came out, and winning a large number of them(when viewed comparatively for the number of actual players of Dark Eldar).

And their codex is how old?

*rests case*

So I hope you're all ready for the 'Decade of Daemons!'

Most witty sir. I'm sure that Decade of Daemons(or DOD, as it shall come to be known) will be a feature for many many years to come...

Most witty sir. I'm sure that Decade of Daemons(or DOD, as it shall come to be known) will be a feature for many many years to come...

It will be over when the new scaven come out. Trust me.

Last time I played high elves with a combat list vs deamons I tabled the guy.

An entire army, that has ward saves, magic attacks, heralds with statline's of Lords, herald's with str 7 and 0+ save's for under 200 pts that are on highly mobile mounts, units of cavalry (flesh hounds) with good movement, good toughness, high str attacks and number of attacks, a bsb that also is a negative modifier to casting, and negate's their greatests threat Lore of Light.... and I haven't mentioned flying rank breakers who auto break units.

Well, with the exception of the hearld of korn which i agree is OP lets list the drawbacks too (only listing benefits is a little one sided):
Best save - 5+ (4+ if you combo a 200 pt unit with a 150 pt char with altogether less than stellar killing power)
Virtually no shooting
No cheep effective redirection such as eagles
No fast cav option.
Best war machine hunter dies instantaneously upon losing combat.

Virtually no shooting? Except you have magical shooting (that is core, and gives you dispel) and y9ou have the best skirmishing missile unit in the game, Flamers, who can also fight stupidly well in combat (except against WS5+ opponents) given they have high S, T and wounds.

Best save 5+? Yes but most block troops have 5+ AS, which is halved in effectiveness vs S4 and negated by S5+. Their ward save is constant. BIG BIG BIG difference.

No fast cav option? Oh noes! cheap fleshhound Khorne Delivery systems are soooo rubbish.

Best 60 points of fear causing flyers die instantly? well only if you lose combat - and against war machine crew the outnumber +1, plus probably 1 kill, is all you need.

No fast cav?? Seekers of slaanesh! They are movement 10, have a 6+ then a 5+ ward, the model has 3 attacks, 1 which can poisen, and they are armor piercing. A unit of 5 is awesome for the cost.

Flesh hounds can march 16, they are essentially a wonderful in between for heavy cav, and are BETTER than most other cav.

No shooting is a crock: Tzeentch/ Horror gun line, flamers shooting d6 shots per flamer

And they have furies to take a charge, they do not need march blockers.

The best warmachine hunter is NOT furies, its steeds of slaanesh because they charge 20 inches, cause fear, and are unit str 10. Also screams are great because you can slash multiple warmachines in a turn. Lastly, the best warmachine unit is 1 heralds of khorne on a juggarnaut, cheap, mobile, hatred, str 6.

The thing about Daemons not having a weakness is that you have to know that, and remember it. I once watched a game where VC charged a unit of 10 Black Knights into a Bloodletter unit only to be flanked next turn by the Bloodletter unit sitting right next to it. This from a veteran gamer who has won most of out local tournaments. For some unknown reason he thought the Bloodletters would break. Had he been thinking straight instead of just hating daemons he would have realized that a better place for that unit of Black Knights was lying in wait for the Bloodthirster or some similar counter attack.
Daemons break a lot of conventional rules and expectations, that is why people dont like them. They are above the rest in the same form that 40kEnthusiast implies, but its the players and the way people perceive these broken conventions that makes them so obnoxious. When my opponent pulls out a Daemon army I know this isnt going to be a game of WHFB it's going to be poker. Im going to out wit him by guessing what stupid abilities he's brought and what sorts of tactics he'll try, and rather than out playing him with manouvering and careful spells and shooting Ill just try to kill everything he has on the table, while keeping anything that cant help with that goal tucked neatly in a corner.
I do the same with VC, the only way to get the undead or Daemons off your table is to kill them all.

Daemons break a lot of conventional rules and expectations, that is why people dont like them.

Thus the cries of broken. As for the rest of your post please clarify how you out think a competent Daemon player and with what army. You must have a good bag of tricks because all our top players lose consistently to our top Daemon player with the excetion of VC's and TK's and thats mostly due to thier ability to tie up his best units with cheap res skeletons/Ghouls ect.

From a demon player: I do not play pick up games with my demon except by request. I provider a copy of a typed army list to my opponent, and review my units in depth. I then offer insight as to the strong points of my army, and suggest ways to destroy them. I also do not take lord choices, and always take 1 less character.

I do this to put the game on an even level. Most tournment players are not surprised by demons, and they being the poker dance. Winning by VPs, winning by objects, killing the general.

In Europe at least, it seems that there certainly isn't going to be a decade of the daemons due to heavy comping becoming a necessity for a varied/interesting enough tournament enviroment. Of course this doesn't apply to the few GW-run tournies (UK GT in particular).

I have played daemons twice with my O & G, and won a massacre and a minor victory. The deamon army is ridiculously point and click for design and execution and the magic items are not magic item thing is cheese. However, you can beat it, you just have to accept that whatever the daemon army is designed to do, cc magic ect, it will do better then you, and you need to hit them on another front, so a balanced list will work better. Taking CC High Elves against a Khorne army is a losing battle, and I hope you have plan b. Does the Army need a slight tweaking, yeah, a little bit, is it the most awsome unstoppable thing ever, no, you just have to play your best game and get a little luck. As a waaaagher, that is my lot in life on the best of days.

WarMonger33 wrote:It really does start ruining the game when you start a game and your opponent looks like your crazy because you have a daemon army. At the gameing store I go to daemons are one of the armies that get a bad rep and people do not want to play because they heard that daemons are cheesey and overpowered. I'm not saying that daemons are not any of those things but, people should at least make their own decision if daemons are crazy or not by acctually playing a game against them.

Also the assumption that daemon players do not have any skill at all and play the army because it makes up for their inexperience is really offensive. I'm not the greatest warhammer player to ever hit the scene but I'm not just staring the game and know how to play. I started a daemon army because I liked the background and models, with an army that I can play a couple games a week with, not so I can make a list that I can win easily with. So putting daemon players in catagories is does not give justice for people who play already of are just starting.

This!

People seem to forget that all-daemon armies are NOT new - my only complete WHFB army is composed of 5th ed crabwomen models (and their closest friends). And because of the instant disdain (which, granted, appears more online than in actual venues), I haven't played with my daemons in Fantasy since the end of the SoC list.

It's an embarrassment of wealth - I merely hoped for something playable, and ended up with military-grade hardware.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warmaster wrote:Actually I've had VC, Daemon, and Dark Elf armies for a very long time, and all the cries of cheese lately have really turned me off from fantasy in general. Who wants to play when as soon as you break out your army, before you've put a model on the table, you get called a power gamer or cheesy.

It's sad but it's gotten so bad about the only fantasy army I will play with is BoC. I'm just waiting for someone to complain about that one.

And this, too. Except I lack a complete other Fantasy army, and the current (over-)reaction to Daemons, DE, and VC doesn't inspire me to collect another.