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I was reading what people have been saying in the 'how fast is a genestealer' thread and jurassic park came up. I was thinking of all the flying creatures in jurassic park, the fact you can have gargoyles, winged warriors, winged tyrants, etc. I think that genestealers should have wings as well. Make it a 15/18pt. upgrade and, like other tyranids with wings, would be unable to take extended carapace, so they'd be stuck at a 5+.

Thoughts?

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But seriously think how insane that would be! An outflanking flying unit that owns CC

meh... wouldn't help them much more than fleet.

Well, this would be a very powerful brood that might be out of reach for the next codex.
Too powerful if you ask me.

If it makes them non-scoring (or not troops) I'd be ok with it.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:If it makes them non-scoring (or not troops) I'd be ok with it.

Jack

Very good point... In the current codex they'd become fast attack so they wouldn't be scoring. Also, if they were winged they wouldn't be able to have scuttlers (obviously).


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wuestenfux wrote:Well, this would be a very powerful brood that might be out of reach for the next codex.
Too powerful if you ask me.

Oh I already know. Feeder tendrils will probably go up to 4 or 6 points and outflank will probably get more expensive too. Stealers are screwed in the next codex unless someone competent writes it.

Stealers are screwed in the next codex unless someone competent writes it.

Why?
They can FoF, outflank, and can get a 4+ save.

You do know Gargoyles basically are winged gaunts... right?

Thats great i guess. But now you've got a 40pt model with 1 wound and a 5+ save. Bolters can chew that up.

You'd have to be playing on a board with a decent amount of terrain so you can get them in cover. (which is pretty much what you normally do w/ stealers w/o scuttlers).

They already have fleet. Its not at all worth making them 12'' move/5+ save, compared to 6'' + D6''/4+ save, not for 16 points a model its not.

wuestenfux wrote:

Stealers are screwed in the next codex unless someone competent writes it.

Why?
They can FoF, outflank, and can get a 4+ save.

And that puts you at 23 points with nothing else... With rending neutered they're only half as useful as they used to be as of right now, even with outflank. I just fear they'll be neutered again because people are afraid of them.

Zid wrote:You do know Gargoyles basically are winged gaunts... right?

You do know that there's quite a difference between a gaunt and a genestealer... right?


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WD40 wrote:Thats great i guess. But now you've got a 40pt model with 1 wound and a 5+ save. Bolters can chew that up.

You'd have to be playing on a board with a decent amount of terrain so you can get them in cover. (which is pretty much what you normally do w/ stealers w/o scuttlers).

They already have fleet. Its not at all worth making them 12'' move/5+ save, compared to 6'' + D6''/4+ save, not for 16 points a model its not.

Except for the fact they'd be able to avoid terrain on the way up and have a guaranteed 18" assault. I think it'd add a new dimension (even though they would be fragile and high priority as you already said). And to be very honest, what in the tyranid army can't bolters chew up easily? It'd be nice to have something that moves quickly and can actually do something in CC once they get there.

23pts? and the rest.

You wont get away with winged stealers for less than 28pts with a base price of 16pts.

I don't see much of an issue for scutter-less non-scoring fast attack winged genestealers for 26 points.

At that point though I would simply rather keep scouts and infiltrate, and just give them leaping for cheaper.

Not a bad idea.

It should be a FA choice though, never troops.

decidedly unfair nothing else need be said.

It would definately be a challenge

I wouldnt mind facing them if they couldnt outflank cuz that just wouldnt be fair and didnt count as scoring. and no extended carapace.

If those conditions were meet than it wouldnt be to much of an issue. they would be dangerous but would force the nid player to think instead of busting a marine player tactic of just charging head long.

IMHO the stealers sole role on the battlefield is to infiltrate/outflank that is what it is meant for shock attacks is fullfilled by the other nid thingies

Winged Genestealers would be a nasty surprise to the enemy.
But as said, they should be FA.
If so, winged Genestealers would become optional, not mandatory in a Nids army.

I think they should loss an attack, in addition to the a slight'er' points increase, with the option of picking up scything to 'recover' the lost attack.

Personally I think that a one attack genestealer is ridiculous. The most elite CC troop in the universe only has one attack? I don't think that would be good at all. It seems like we're all basically agreed that they'd become fast attack, thus making them non-scoring.

And at EasyE, stealers don't actually have leaping... But wouldn't it be fun if they did have it for 10 points a model. I think that would be awesome. Give outflank and carapace and leaping you're at 33 points for something that could be potentially dangerous or an overpriced powerhouse that ends up on the wrong side of the board.

Giving Genestealers the carapace upgrade in the first place is a massive waste of points as they shouldn't be left in the open/out of CC anyways. In 4th ed they were insanely effective troops, in 5th tho they are a good one or two turn lasting unit to slice some Marines all to hell or rip a few holes in a landraider, beyond that it's not a good idea to dump points into stealers.

You do realize that it's impossible for a genestealer to harm a landraider unless you give them toxin sacs, right? And even at that you'd need to hit, get 6, then get another 6, then get a 5 or 6 to do anything even remotely useful. I don't know if it's happened to you, but it's inevitable that stealers are caught in the open at some point. And while they are monsters in CC, they are going to get return fire, and if they only have a 33% chance of saving that wound, there won't be much of a 2nd round.

Grunt_For_Christ: Personally I think that a one attack genestealer is ridiculous. The most elite CC troop in the universe only has one attack? I don't think that would be good at all. It seems like we're all basically agreed that they'd become fast attack, thus making them non-scoring.

So your saying if you wouldn't drop an attack on a fleet jump jump infantry with rending, for a reduction on flight price?
Let's say the attack penalized flight costs 4 points (because of the attack drop), you could boost it by purchasing scything talons up to the old value, and you could drop scuttlers on top of that - giving a 18-24" threat range from the table edges.
If this was the option, I'd leave the extra attack at home and drop 23 points per model on a unit of 12 of these.

Though I'm from the line of thought that all of the Tyranid flight options should cost less and take a weapon-symbiote slot (with the exception of Gargoyles).

I guess I am saying that because only having 1 attack (2 on charge) would really limit their usefulness. Lets face it, no matter how good your stats are everyone still rolls ones. I'm coming from the line of thought that everything else as it stands now is basically the same and wings are an addition to the current stats. That's why I think that 10 points that forces you to drop the carapace would be basically fair.

I see your point about the tradeoffs and the idea that options should be less than symbiotes though. Very interesting thought to have a 23 point 1 attack model... Very vulnerable, very luck-driven, but could still be amazing in numbers and with good deployment.

Heh, at least it's not my 36pt I:3 1 attack model *cough* pariah *cough cough*
And the detail is not A:1 but I:6 A:1 as the base.
Initiative is their strength, that and they will almost always need a 3+ to hit.
With the amount of mobility they would have with jump and fleet, they almost always would be out of LOS or in cover the turn before assault.
Getting hit with 12 (or 24 with upgrade) stealer attacks, with re-rolls in a joint venture with a lictor or feeder-stealers will win most combats.
Especially when their mobility prevents them from taking wounds before hand.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:You do realize that it's impossible for a genestealer to harm a landraider unless you give them toxin sacs, right? And even at that you'd need to hit, get 6, then get another 6, then get a 5 or 6 to do anything even remotely useful. I don't know if it's happened to you, but it's inevitable that stealers are caught in the open at some point. And while they are monsters in CC, they are going to get return fire, and if they only have a 33% chance of saving that wound, there won't be much of a 2nd round.

Exactly my point. They are not worth pouring extra points into, especially not if wings were added to the potential "upgrades". As I said, stealers are only good for one or two rounds of life so there is no good reason to spend lots of points on them.

Belphegor wrote: And the detail is not A:1 but I:6 A:1 as the base.
Initiative is their strength, that and they will almost always need a 3+ to hit.
With the amount of mobility they would have with jump and fleet, they almost always would be out of LOS or in cover the turn before assault.
Getting hit with 12 (or 24 with upgrade) stealer attacks, with re-rolls in a joint venture with a lictor or feeder-stealers will win most combats.
Especially when their mobility prevents them from taking wounds before hand.

Small correction, stealers have 2 attacks base so it's be 36 attacks after upgrade

I think if there was a upgrade for stealers to have wings then make sure they can't have upgraded saves.


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Zid wrote:You do know Gargoyles basically are winged gaunts... right?

Damn,this guys good.

If the price is right, I wouldn't have a problem with/against it. It would be rather nice, honestly.

But the chances GW will do that is next to none, because they probably won't update the genestealer box in February. But if they update the gargoyles, you can use these wings. Mhhh...

Greets
Schepp himself

i don't think it would look right i mean take a look at the model with gaunts they pulled it off but genestealers i mean they already have four arms adding a pair of wings on them would look ridiculous then they also would decrease the size of the legs like they did the
gaunts

i just am thinking of the model here i'm not thinking of the actual stats but i just don't think it would look good

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I was reading what people have been saying in the 'how fast is a genestealer' thread and jurassic park came up. I was thinking of all the flying creatures in jurassic park, the fact you can have gargoyles, winged warriors, winged tyrants, etc. I think that genestealers should have wings as well. Make it a 15/18pt. upgrade and, like other tyranids with wings, would be unable to take extended carapace, so they'd be stuck at a 5+.

Thoughts?

Basically you have created a the Tyranid version of the Vespid...overcosted and easy to take out.

Granted, I imagine both your suggestion and the Vespid have great tactical usage...but it requires a great amount of care, luck, and good terrain!
I'd suggest playtesting the idea...

And shouldn't that be the real goal of playing this game? To have to play well and tactfully and rely on some luck to make stuff work? You would have to use cover and cover saves very efficiently but that'd be half the fun. Taking 9 cover saves on a 10 man unit to see if you survive.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:And shouldn't that be the real goal of playing this game? To have to play well and tactfully and rely on some luck to make stuff work? You would have to use cover and cover saves very efficiently but that'd be half the fun. Taking 9 cover saves on a 10 man unit to see if you survive.

I whole-heartedly agree with you about that being the point of the game...but some armies can absolutely be played with little thought to tactics, and still have a decent outcome the majority of the time... (think: horde assault armies.)