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There was a disastrous thread yesterday about someone claiming he always beat IG with his eldar. He was just a troll, but he raised a couple good points.

It seems like Eldar and IG have codices that are the other's weakness. Wave serpents moving fast enough are almost invulnerable to almost all IG's anti-tank weapons. IG has hydras that eat eldar for breakfast. Bright lances eat russes for breakfast, Russes eat Eldar infantry for lunch. IG can bring 3 drive-by meltagun shots. Eldar can bring 10 meltagun shots on foot.

My question is, who has the advantage, assuming equally skilled generals with equally diverse model lines, Eldar, or Imperial Guard?

IG have the advantage. They have units that can accomplish the same role that many Eldar units can, almost as efficiently, but for extremely reduced costs, and have more dual-role units as well.

My friend who plays Eldar has not won a game against me since I got my collection of tanks/valks. He's definately given me a run for my money still all the same. I think a major part of his issue is that he runs mostly footslogging stuff.

If he hasn't won a game against you then he hasn't given you a run for your money.

I'd have to say Imperial Guard has the advantage.

Valkyrie Vendettas cost less then Serpent with Missle Launcher and Spirit stones and have 3 twin linked las cannons vs 1 twin linked missle launcher.

Valkyrie has scout which allows for first turn alpha strikes or outflanking.

IG Veteran scoring Troops can have meltas which they can shoot out of Chimeras to drop Eldar tanks.

IG Infantry can have las cannons/auto cannons which they can twin link via orders from an inexpensive Platoon command to have a better shot at killing Eldar vehicles.

Guard heavies put out high strength templates which kill Eldar infantry pretty fast or have a decent shot of killing tanks.

In contrast
Eldar has to take elites fire dragons to get meltas who have to jump out of their vehicle to shoot
Eldar are infantry can take bright lances but they are expensive and require a more expensive farseer to guide.
Eldar heavies aren't too effective at anti tank str9 is no better then a las cannon and their large template is lower strength.

I've been thinking about running my exodite eldar using the IG codex. Kirika's arguments help support that stance...

I think Eldar are actually very well suited for an IG army.

I have face the new IG codex about a dozen times now and have lost once. The IG General is a good player and has been playing since RT times.

Although, I did rethink my Eldar list when the new IG codex came out.

After some really close games I came up with little, subtle, tricks to kill those devastating tanks.

The best one, or most successful, was sticking an Autarch with a fusion gun in a squad of Warp Spiders and deepstriking by the tanks or a nasty shooty squad by the edge. The results were either a popped tank or a squad falling back off the table, most of the time. Then I would use the assault phase warp jump and try to get some cover.

I think eldar and guard rock paper scissors eachother a lot. There's a lot of variety of competitive builds for each army, and in an even match I think it would come down to who the dice favor.

The eldar have skimmer transports that can carry much stronger guns than the chimera.

The chimera chassis however is AV 12, an entire army built on them will lessen the point of bringing lance weapons.

Dire Avengers can outshoot almost any infantry given the position to do so.

Veterans can carry special weapons, that can destroy the transports that Dire Avengers need.

The Valk/Vendetta is also a skimmer, and much stronger (if more expensive) than the wave serpent.

IG has few counters to the Seer Council, even a leeman russ demolisher squad wouldn't probably do much to one that had turbo boosted and had fortune...griffin or flames from a chimera could probably do it, but that's assuming a lot of maneuvering. The better way would probably be just FRFSRF them

IG can't outmaneuver Guardian Jetbikes, nor outshoot fire prisms...however, the guard has many MORE vehicles if the eldar chose to load up on these two expensive units, making the jetbikes and prisms huge targets for all the shots in the IG force.

IG however, can take allies, Grey Knights, Black Templars, and Inquisitors. While these forces may not be that strong on their own, they can help fill in some of the holes in the IG (which is actually kind of fitting) Eldar can't really do this, their holes need to be filled with more aspect warriors.

If you are playing a good eldar player with mech he has around 9-10 skimmers in 1850.

Just because a hydra ignores a skimmers flat out save does NOT mean it eats them for breakfast LOL. You still need to roll a 6 to pen and I hope you are playing a noob that left the skimmer OUT of cover vs your hydras.

A unit of hydras is only going to kill one skimmer per turn, AND it has to roll a 6, then a 5 or a 6, then I fail my 4+ LOS cover on one of those 4 BS3 shots...

Riiiiight...It CAN happen but no st7 weapon eats av12 for breakfast. Its like saying heavy bolters eat rhinos for breakfast.

Its like saying lascannons eat land raiders for breakfast! LOL!!!!


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Basically if you are playing Eldar with IG you are either experienced for take all comers and have lascannon out the ass, or you are a noob who tweaked your list to have as many autocannons as possible. Either way I am happy. You waste a ton of points on st 9 and meltas, or you take a weapon that has to get super lucky to pen me.

To be honest I would rather play vs the all st 7. You still have the same chance of penning my 3 fire prisms rather than 9 vs 12~~!

If you have an LOS cover save on all your skimmers, you are playing far too defensively.

That, and if you don't remember, hydras all have 2, twin-linked hydra autocannons. that is 4 shots per model. 3 hydras put out 12 TL BS3 S7 shots.

That is 9 hits on average. That is at least one pen and one glance, on average.

3 hydras have to get incredibly UNlucky to not kill a wave serpent.

one pen and one glance from three tanks firing at one tank per turn. See what I mean?

Far too defensive? That is how you play mech eldar. The entire army is defensive the only reason you even have 5 man dire avenger squads is to score and one turn mob a pesky unit.


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And dont forget on that ONE pen you tehn have to roll a 5 or 6 THEN get past my 4+ if I have one. Not that it matters.

3 tanks killing one tank per turn is actually pretty good, considering they are 75 ppm, their 72" range, and the fact that you have to kill 3 of them to take them out, that means that they'll probably kill 3-5 wave serpents per game.

Now please leave this thread. I don't want you to get this one locked like you got the last one locked.

I dont have to kill 3 to knock them out, as you have said it takes all 3 to get an assured average one pen. 3-5 per game assumes it is a shooting gallery and there is nothing coming back at you! Fire prisms eat AV12 for breakfast lol.

Im just saying there are a lot better choices in the IG codex for vs Eldar!

You're just trolling.

??

If that's how you want to block it out go ahead, I am just giving sound advice from my POV.

No, you're trolling. Just like your last thread. This thread is to actually bring intelligent thoughts on the matter, you're simply making confrontational and incorrect statements.

Well, I think that a mech Eldar army will be on top of every IG army.
The reason is Lanchester's square law.

What about mech IG that outnumber eldar?
Chimeras are cheaper than wave serpents, vendetta's valks are cheaper than similarly upgraded fire prisms and better, and IG can get like 6 chimeras to the FOC slot.

What are all those Chimera's going to do? Usually people arm them with a Multi-Laser and a Heavy Flamer. This means the Chimera's are no threat to the Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms of the Eldar player. Only the Veterans inside the Chimera, with their 3 Meltaguns, are able to hurt the Wave Serpents, but their chances aren't all that good (3 shots, 2 hits, 2/3 pens, 1/3 destroyed).
The Veterans will need to get out of their Chimera to be able to fire (no sane Eldar player is going to park his Wave Serpent where the IG player can keep his Veterans inside the transports and still fire). Once the Veterans are out of their Chimera, they will die, so they really only get one shot.

Hydra Flak Tanks are a pain in the ass for most Eldar players. They should be the Eldar players primary target and should be taken out fairly quickly (Fire Dragons or a Seer Council will do it turn 2 usually).

Vendetta's really are the most annoying to an Eldar player. Sure those Lascannons are only S8 against the Wave Serpent's Energy Fields, but they are pretty hard for an Eldar player to take out. Most of the reliable anti-vehicle units of the Eldar are short ranged, which makes it pretty hard to destroy the fast moving Vendetta's.

Leman Russ tanks are usually a bad idea against an Eldar player. Fire Dragons, Seer Councils and Bright Lances all destroy the Leman Russ just as easily as they destroy other tanks, the Leman Russ just cost more. Besides, the Leman Russ don't have any weapons which are exceptionally good against the Eldar.

From the IG players point of view, the Seer Council is the biggest threat. IG players should watch out for multiple tank charges, as the Seer Council will have no problem wrecking them all. Doing lots of wounds to the Seer Council is the best way to make it disappear. This won't be easy though.

I play both eldar and IG, and both armies have such varied builds that to generalize things as to which is better is really simplistic. If we go with current trends (ie mech vs mech), if the game is about scoring IG has the slight advantage due to cheaper scoring units, as well as more units that can also contest. If the game is about KP, then you can eldar can have an advantage especially if their units can pulloff a multiunit assault.

in these games, I say that by turn 2 or 3 you can already tell who will win. If the eldar manages to get in among the IG lines by turn 2, then they have a great chance to win. If conversely if they get bogged dwon in a firefight at this time, the eldar will most likely lose as no army can beat the IG in a shooting slugfest.

Airmaniac wrote:What are all those Chimera's going to do? Usually people arm them with a Multi-Laser and a Heavy Flamer. This means the Chimera's are no threat to the Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms of the Eldar player. Only the Veterans inside the Chimera, with their 3 Meltaguns, are able to hurt the Wave Serpents, but their chances aren't all that good (3 shots, 2 hits, 2/3 pens, 1/3 destroyed).
The Veterans will need to get out of their Chimera to be able to fire (no sane Eldar player is going to park his Wave Serpent where the IG player can keep his Veterans inside the transports and still fire). Once the Veterans are out of their Chimera, they will die, so they really only get one shot.

Hydra Flak Tanks are a pain in the ass for most Eldar players. They should be the Eldar players primary target and should be taken out fairly quickly (Fire Dragons or a Seer Council will do it turn 2 usually).

Vendetta's really are the most annoying to an Eldar player. Sure those Lascannons are only S8 against the Wave Serpent's Energy Fields, but they are pretty hard for an Eldar player to take out. Most of the reliable anti-vehicle units of the Eldar are short ranged, which makes it pretty hard to destroy the fast moving Vendetta's.

Leman Russ tanks are usually a bad idea against an Eldar player. Fire Dragons, Seer Councils and Bright Lances all destroy the Leman Russ just as easily as they destroy other tanks, the Leman Russ just cost more. Besides, the Leman Russ don't have any weapons which are exceptionally good against the Eldar.

From the IG players point of view, the Seer Council is the biggest threat. IG players should watch out for multiple tank charges, as the Seer Council will have no problem wrecking them all. Doing lots of wounds to the Seer Council is the best way to make it disappear. This won't be easy though.

The Leman Russ Battle Tank has a 72 inch range with it's main gun, outraging most eldar weaponry while able to lay an instant kill template on any unit within that range and be confident in inflicting at least a few casualties with it's AP 3 while still bringing enough power to blow apart a wave serpent if need be. never-mind the arty that could do the same from behind cover.

An Eldar player would have to use cover as much as possible to limit casualties, (although with some IG weapons even that is difficult) while all the IG player has to do is limit their mobility. Fire dragons aren't that scary when ther're across the table only moving 6 inches a turn.

in an equal skill match up, the initial favor is with the guard, as they have powerful ranged weapons as well as the option to counter eldar physic powers with inquisitors

Those ordnance weapons don't blow apart a Wave Serpent all that regularly. When they hit, they are still only S8 and they do not get the 2D6 pick highest for penetration against the Energy Field, so only 1/3 of the hits will penetrate. Then 1/3 of those will destroy the Wave Serpent, if it hadn't boosted in which case 1/2 of those are ignored. So really, the Leman Russ isn't all that great against Mech Eldar.

You are assuming the IG army is strong enough to destroy all Fire Dragon transports in a single shooting phase, as one turn is all the Fire Dragons need to boost over to your side of the table. Let alone when the Eldar player actually wins first turn, when you can't do anything about them coming close to you.

Where we live, people don't ally Inquisitors with Mystics and a Psychic Hood to their 5th Edition Imperial armies. Those allying rules are obviously outdated so they aren't used where we live.

You are assuming the IG army is strong enough to destroy all Fire Dragon transports in a single shooting phase

3 Hydras, Infantry heavy weapons with Bring It Down!, vendettas, valks, artillery, leman russes, a good guard army will include at least a couple of those, and a high points guard army might contain them all.

Where we live, people don't ally Inquisitors with Mystics and a Psychic Hood to their 5th Edition Imperial armies. Those allying rules are obviously outdated so they aren't used where we live.

Where I live, it's considered alright to be a racist and you can buy fresh corn next to the place you buy illegal drugs.
That doesn't mean it's right.

I didn't say it's right, I just said we don't use the allying rules. If you want me to say the IG army has the upper hand, then why did you make this topic in the first place?

Airmaniac wrote:

You are assuming the IG army is strong enough to destroy all Fire Dragon transports in a single shooting phase, as one turn is all the Fire Dragons need to boost over to your side of the table. Let alone when the Eldar player actually wins first turn, when you can't do anything about them coming close to you.

Most IG armies have a lot of firepower these days, and they don't need to destroy every Wave serpent, just the one with the dragons in. then the next mobile threat, then the next. they have the range and surplus of heavy weapons to have a decent chance at doing it, and no army is going to be able to hide from Evey IG unit. Identifying and prioritizing threats also helps

Airmaniac wrote:Where we live, people don't ally Inquisitors with Mystics and a Psychic Hood to their 5th Edition Imperial armies. Those allying rules are obviously outdated so they aren't used where we live.

This is a hypothetical situation, IG Options vs Eldar options, what you and i choose to do doesn't matter, but until GW comes out with an answer, Inquisitors are still an IG option and thus are relivent to this discussion.

Canonness Rory wrote:vendetta's valks are cheaper than similarly upgraded fire prisms and better

They are? I thought a group of fire prisams could put out a S10 template or two. That's way more nasty than a couple of lascannons (though, the Valkarie is pretty mean to infantry and light transports)

Edit: I guess what I mean is the Valk/Vendettas are transports first, and fast attack seccond (and heavy support never) Comparing a Valkarie to a Fire prism is like trying to compare a sheep to a basketball. It'd be better to compare the prism to say, the LRD. (in which case, the prism has range and speed, but the Demolisher has far more armor)

Imperial guard can be very good at kill points, blobing units and Leman Russ squadrons are incredibly tough to kill.

I think IG have the advantage

I play Eldar, and my force is designed to combat a blanced opponent, one that will move towards me the same amount as i do to him/her. So it leads to me struggling more against a static/all-shooty army.

Canonness Rory wrote:What about mech IG that outnumber eldar?
Chimeras are cheaper than wave serpents, vendetta's valks are cheaper than similarly upgraded fire prisms and better, and IG can get like 6 chimeras to the FOC slot.

I'd take an army (1000- 1500 pts) with Serpents (stones and shuricannons)
transporting Dire Avengers, Storm Guardians, and Fire Dragons.
The army would be led by a Doomseer.

Chimeras would get down by targeting side armor (shuricannons),
Leman Russes would be targeted by Fire Dragons, and
Dire Avengers and Storm Guardians would take on doomed infantry.

Sorry, but I have to shoot this comment down my own way.

PanamaG wrote:
Riiiiight...It CAN happen but no st7 weapon eats av12 for breakfast.

What about Deffgunz?

Edit: I just mathhammered this, 15 deffguns average around 9 hits, 3 hydras also average 9 hits. After that, it's just a matter of how many glances/pens can you get? All you really need to do to a transport is imoblize it, one pen is enough. And for a unit to pop/disable a transport per turn, that's pretty good!