Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, how many Hydras will a normal IG army field?
None!

wuestenfux wrote:Well, how many Hydras will a normal IG army field?
None!

The IG armor-spam lists around here do field Hydras, and then as many melta-carrying Chimeras as possible.
I really think IG have the upper hand in this one, as my win record vs this list isn't that strong. I just can't field enough firepower for the points, to deal with all those threats.

So far at least, I see very few hydras when I play against IG. Now that will be likely to change if GW gets a model for the hydra actually out and in the stores, but atm they are very rare. A hydra doesnt add enough to a general IG list to make many people want to do that amount of converting.

The dangerous part of an IG army for eldar really is the valk/ vendetta arm. Its the only thing thats fast enough to matter, its as cheap as a serpent or prism, and its very heavily armed (especially for its point cost). And the big thing is that the valk/ vendetta works very well against almost any army so we do see a lot of them.

Chimera spam is pretty easy to beat by comparison; and while a lot of heavy armor can cripple many lists, the eldar are one of the better set to face a lot of av14 tanks. Yes heavy tanks or chimera spam can do very well, no it doesnt create any special problems for the eldar. So of the common IG builds, I find the most problems with the ones focussed on valk/ vendettas.


A lot would depend of course on whether or not the met\eting between the eldar and IG is in a random match up or a planned set piece fight. Mecheldar vs an IG army to face all comers will have a better day than mechdar vs IG who know they are playing eldar. For one thing, its not too likely that the IG player will waste points on a psycher squad if he knows hes facing eldar, but in a general list 1-2 of them is pretty standard. The IG can do more to change their army than the eldar can, they have a much newer codex and that codex got some really nice toys added this time around. So if its set matchup then the IG has more options in how to tailor his forces ... make up some counts-as hydras and leave the russes at home sort of thing.


Sliggoth

In a small tournament recently, I ran an almost all infantry ig force with a ton of heavy weapons and no tanks. The eldar army I was playing had no tanks either. My mortars pinned his guys, and all my heavy bolters and autocannons ripped them to shreds. It was a complete massacre. I'm a new player, so I'm sure if he just had a bad list, but the imperial guard really outperformed the eldar.

The IG armor-spam lists around here do field Hydras, and then as many melta-carrying Chimeras as possible.

If the enemy fields Hydras I'll take them down or silence them at first sight.
Meltas don't work well vs Serpents, thanks to their energy field.

Meltas work pretty well against serpents because they're still str 8 an AP1. Str 8 vs. armor 12, means you've still got a 50% chance for a damaging hit, and if the wave serpent has moved flat out then a failed cover save results in a wrecked tank on a 5 or 6 on a glance! On a pen it is wrecked on a 3+. You ignore melta weapons at risk of your own demise with a wave serpent.

Well, Serpents do generally not move flat out.
They approach the enemy by moving at speed of 12'' and keep on shooting the enemy.
If I play Serpent spam I usually don't care if one is going down.

The only melta unit that IG has are Veterans with 3 meltas loeaded in a Valkyrie or a Chimera.
I might stop them before they can get too close.

I was just mentioning the flat out thing because I'm sure that someone would just chime in "I'll just go flat out to get a cover save!"

Meltas are dangerous whichever way, and If an IG player is outnumbering you 2-1 then he can pretty easily put simultaneous pressure on your line so you can't just avoid them.

willydstyle wrote:
Meltas are dangerous whichever way, and If an IG player is outnumbering you 2-1 then he can pretty easily put simultaneous pressure on your line so you can't just avoid them.

Well, meltas are dangerous.
But I usually target the closest threats so that meltas will have a hard time to reach my front ranks.

I'll keep the army together and target one flank of a shooty army.

Well, an army entirely out of meltavets will reach your lines before you can take them out. An army with support will have plenty of autocannons, lascannons, and missile launchers to take you out at range while you're shooting at the vets.

Yes, Eldar's AP1 fire is largely limited to fire dragons.

EMLs and Bright Lances aren't particularly effective ranged anti-tank, as they don't have AP1 or bonus dice.

There's a reason why you're not seeing lascannons in many marine lists, and lascannons are better anti-tank than bright lances against all but a few vehicles.

Canonness Rory wrote:Well, an army entirely out of meltavets will reach your lines before you can take them out. An army with support will have plenty of autocannons, lascannons, and missile launchers to take you out at range while you're shooting at the vets.

Mech Eldar armies don't have lines and meltavets don't have the speed to keep up with the Eldar. Either they need to get out to fire (ensuring their own demise a turn later for a fairly small chance to destroy one skimmer) or they will have a total range of 18", which isn't that hard to avoid for the Eldar player (unless the IG player is spreading out, in which case the Eldar player will press one flank hard).

"Lines" are an outdated concept anyways mostly. In mechanized/blitz warfare (IE most of 40K) battles swing back and forth fast while armies try to get a good position.

In this sense, I think the Eldar have an advantage...slightly, against guard in chimeras.

Guard in Valkaries however can counter the Eldar mobility.

It boils down to "Is more shots better than better shots at the same BS?" Guard has more shots, Eldar have 'better shots' that aren't really better because they still miss half the time. (Note: Right now I'm just comparing the skimmers, though it's worth mentioning that a Wave Serpant can ram a Valkarie to death edit: Well, I mean they would be able to....if the Valk's flying base wasn't so high :( )

Actually wave serpents can't ram a valkyrie because a wave serpent can't come in contact with the valk's hull because it is so high.

willydstyle wrote:Actually wave serpents can't ram a valkyrie because a wave serpent can't come in contact with the valk's hull because it is so high.

I thought the FAQ addressed this and had you treat the base as the target for situations like assaults, disembarking and ramming?

DoW

I believe the FAQ addressed disembarking and scoring. You've always been able to assault the base of a skimmer so that didn't need to be covered.

willydstyle wrote:I believe the FAQ addressed disembarking and scoring. You've always been able to assault the base of a skimmer so that didn't need to be covered.

You sir, are correct. (If anyone else is curious, see here)

RAW I would say you're absolutely right that no vehicle can ram a Valkyrie unless it can actually come in contact with the hull. To be fair, I would probably house rule it so that you could... even though I don't REALLY want you to. Naturally it still gets the skimmer dodging ability, of course.

DoW

idk guys.

guard are able to out number most any army right now, even with tanks.

only real viable anti-tank eldar have are dragons, lances are just missle launchers, their effect only working on the heavy tanks

vendettas will tear apart eldar tanks for the most part because 3 twin linked lascannons can be cheesy (as per my local opponents)

all a guard has to do is lock your dragons down (usually only a max of 2 squads), then blast em away (rather easily with PBS and leman russes) thats pretty easy, and with the guard's numbers, the amount of chances they will need due to their BS can be made in one turn. leaving the rest of the game for the army to tear apart your other guys

as a guard player, i love playing against lances, because they allow me to be more leniant with the facing of my leman russes, because my side is gonna be 12 anyways so it doesn't matter.

i think fighting mechdar is just like facing dark mechdar.

cept just mechdar have less lances and some reletively easy to kill meltas.

i can't say for sure because i haven't encountered mechdar on a regular basis but i think ig has the upperhand because they can just cram more shots into the eldar's stuff, and all you having to do is shaking a lance to make it innefective (with ig big guns thats not hard).

there's just not enough punch to eldar to break through a ig list of any kind of armor. i can see a good fight coming out but not the eldar winning by more than a hair.

It does stand to reason though that the Eldar player would screen his valuable anti-tank unit. Moving fast vypers as cover generating shields, or another serpent to run interference, most likely one carrying a much less valuable cargo. It's not a guarantee that the dragons would make it, but between cover, and a seconds serpent you can screen the valuable one from a lot of firepower. Combined with SMF and line of sight blocking to say...hydras there is a good chance that the dragons will get at least one squadron, especially the hydras that are supposedly so devastating. Besides, with so many armies going mechanized it's more likely that there will be at least two FD units on the board than just one.

As for the mechanized vets, both can match the other for speed. The vets have their AT weapons spread though six-eight squads in the form of melta-guns. They can take las cannons, but from what I've seen posted here, most people don't. Vendettas, which seem to be preferred over Valkyries have more firepower than a wave serpent, and fire prism, and just above a falcon. The eldar tanks however, are more durable with holo-fields and energy-fields on their appropriate vehicles, and have higher quality infantry. The advantage the eldar has in mech versus mech is that it can field more AV12 skimmers with less compromise to their force. Eight Vendettas carrying six squads of vets, and to CCS all with max meltas is 1820 points, with the only upgrades being the meltas. That army now has 180 points left for the massive firepower commented on earlier. Meanwhile an eldar army consisting of two farseers with fortune/guide 20 Fire Dragons, 15 Dire Avengers, Five wave serpents and three falcons with scatter-lasers and holo-fields are roughly 1850 +/- 15 points. Eight IG skimmers and 70 men to seven skimmers and 37 men. But again, how much additional firepower can the IG player add for those 180 points? A pair of hydras? A ninth Vendetta? Stormtroopers? A single lemon russ? For the let's say 150 points for the eldar player he's going to be adding upgrades, and expanding his squads. He really doesn't need to add an eighth "heavy" skimmer. At most he is going to "downgrade" the falcons to Fire prisms to gain more points, and/or will add vypers, or mount his farseers on bikes and add retinues. (by the way, I used falcons for the example both because they ARE more expensive than fireprisms, and because they are possibly a better choice against IG Aircav.) If the IG player starts to remove skimmers to add more (comparatively) static support than the eldar player starts to gain an advantage in speed, and becomes more capable of concentrating his firepower on the IG's weak links. In addition he can use his own skimmers as cover, while still being able to bring fire on the Vendettas, while shielding himself from the slower elements of the IG army, only allowing the non-skimmer elements of the IG direct LOS on a few chosen vehicles at a time.

As the IG player removes more Vendettas to gain the increased firepower, his army becomes less mobile, allowing the eldar player more choices on where he will hit the IG lines, and yes I do mean lines, as the less mobile force will be forced into groups for mutual self-defense based on available line of sight to avoid being destroyed piecemeal.

Kirika wrote:I'd have to say Imperial Guard has the advantage.

Valkyrie Vendettas cost less then Serpent with Missle Launcher and Spirit stones and have 3 twin linked las cannons vs 1 twin linked missle launcher.

Valkyrie has scout which allows for first turn alpha strikes or outflanking.

IG Veteran scoring Troops can have meltas which they can shoot out of Chimeras to drop Eldar tanks.

IG Infantry can have las cannons/auto cannons which they can twin link via orders from an inexpensive Platoon command to have a better shot at killing Eldar vehicles.

Guard heavies put out high strength templates which kill Eldar infantry pretty fast or have a decent shot of killing tanks.

In contrast
Eldar has to take elites fire dragons to get meltas who have to jump out of their vehicle to shoot
Eldar are infantry can take bright lances but they are expensive and require a more expensive farseer to guide.
Eldar heavies aren't too effective at anti tank str9 is no better then a las cannon and their large template is lower strength.

Eldar Heavies not good at AT? Want to rethink that?
Fire Prisms, Falcons, Missile armed War walkers, Wraithlords will all make micemeat of tanks, and that large blast kills your men on 2s, no Armour Saves allowed.

Every one seems to think Mechdar is the only way. What about jetbike heavy lists? Fantastic. You have exactly 1 turn of shooting before 10 Shining Spears tear you a new and interesting hole. Your Leman Russes will not like that. Gunline ANYTHING does not like Striking Scorpions appearing from the sidelines and Demolishing you. As much as averyone hates them, Swooping Hawks can cause a lot of problems.

Against mech, it's even easier. 4 or five jetbike squads with Shuricannons and warlocks will take down Chimeras easily. I played successful eldar. I don't own any Wave Serpents. However I may when I restart them...


And Cannoness Rory, I think the Panama guy was not trolling, and he had a lot of very valid points.

Jimi Nemesis wrote:
Eldar Heavies not good at AT? Want to rethink that?
Fire Prisms, Falcons, Missile armed War walkers, Wraithlords will all make micemeat of tanks, and that large blast kills your men on 2s, no Armour Saves allowed.

A Prism has a one shot 60" Blast Lascannon, not really what I call amazing. Two have a one shot 60" rail gun between them. Really, Fire Prisms are better for their large blast than the small one.

Falcons: Best they can do is 3 BS3 S8 shots, and can't do it moving over 6". They aren't AP1 either.

Warwalkers are also BS3 and get 2 missiles each (or 2 BL, which are worse than Lascannons for even more points). It's passable, but not optimum or even great as anti-tank. Missiles can't dent AV14 either, and Brightlances are expensive so it's not cost efficient (and the range is lower meaning the AV10 Warwalkers are even more vulnerable).

Wraithlords make mincemeat of tanks... if they're in base to base with it. It's a slow moving walker so it's not hard to avoid combat. It's BS4 heavy weapons (has to mix brightlance and missile to get 2 shots as doubling twin linkes them) are ok, but expensive and not totally amazing.

I think I read a thread somewhere here that Guard do 75% of what Eldar do for 50% of the cost; that pretty much sums it up.

As a guard player I'm really not that scared of fire dragons. I don't squadron anything so they will drop out, kill their one tank, and promptly get annihilated. That's the problem with mechdar, is that getting out of the transports amounts to suicide, and their vehicles by themselves can only do so much. Jetbike councils will go in and do some damage, but the sheer amount of shots that an IG army can pump out at close range targets means they'll only last so long. Against an IG player, an eldar player really has to pick his battles wisely and try to be elusive. Take out the mobile IG elements early, and try to pick off isolated targets later. Much easier said than done,and getting into gunfights with vendetta isn't that great of an option either...

But if you're not using squadrons, it will be three vendettas versus at least three eldar skimmers. Without squadrons you're relying on your infantry to kill the enemy, and frankly most eldar I've seen massacre platoons and vets in chimeras, especially when their only support came in the form of a handful of LR.

Frankly as a marine player I can say with all honesty that ig autocannons are scary too me. I don't have much experience playing eldar, but I've played against guard enough to how much damage they can do and this was before they had valks.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Serpents do generally not move flat out.
They approach the enemy by moving at speed of 12'' and keep on shooting the enemy.
If I play Serpent spam I usually don't care if one is going down.

The only melta unit that IG has are Veterans with 3 meltas loeaded in a Valkyrie or a Chimera.
I might stop them before they can get too close.

for mixed lists there are also platoon command squads in chimeras...who can and usually do carry 4 meltaguns....

and there are some players who play deep striking storm trooper units, who also can carry meltaguns...

mechvets are NOT the only build despite what other IG players may say...although most successful armies do have a very strong mech component at least....