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Ladies and gents,

In the interest of fostering tactical discussions beyond the simple ones involving list building, I've decided to post a game-type situation and ask for your solutions to it. I will post my own later. It should allow us to create a good situational discussion and possibly learn a thing or two from one another. Enjoy.

-Mike K

The Situation: You are a Space Marine player squaring off against an Orc player. It is your turn one and the Orc player has failed to seize the initiative. You have a Thunderfire cannon, a Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons, and a Tactical Squad of 10 marines with a lascannon, meltagun, Sergeant with powerfist. The Thunderfire cannon and the tac squad are deployed in a bolstered set of ruins. The predator is behind a low wall that is too shallow to give it cover. Across from you, the Orc player has a squad of 10 lootas tucked inside a forest and a battlewagon with deff rollas loaded down with 20 boyz with a powerklaw nob and 3 rokkits. You estimate that the battlewagon is about 24 inches away from your lines.

Questions: As the Marine player, which of your weapon systems do you shoot first and at what target? Which orc unit poses the greatest threat to you on the orc turn one and (potentially) on the orc turn two?

Lascannons at the Wagon, Thunderfire at the lootas with the Airburst shot. Are the cannon and tactical squad deployed off the ground floor? If they are the Deff Rolla becomes less of a problem as there would be nothing it could hurt seeing as a Ram is a special type of Tank Shock and because it isn't specifically mentioned in the Deff Rola rules meaning the Deff Rolla cannot be used on the tanks. Battle Wagon can still ram, but as normal. Being open topped it should be dealt with by the Lascannons fairly quickly.

If the Tactical Squad isn't deployed off the ground floor it should go to a higher floor until the Deff Rolla is dealt with. If both the cannon and the Tactical Squad are on the ground, the tac squad should be moved forward to draw attention away from the cannon even more than the Predator could.


I'd guess the Orks would go after the Predator first and the Lootas would be probably the best to do that in their first turn so they would need to be dealt with early. The Predator could take out their Battlewagon which would make it more of a target for the Lootas.


Answer: Thunderfire first with Airburst at the Lootas. Lascannons and Autocannon on the Predator second at the Battlewagon.

(I think n0t_u covers it, but just wanted to say this is a great idea for a thread. HAve a lecture now, will post properly later)

Looks like I forgot to mention it in my post, but I agree this topic is a great idea

Nuke that wagon fast imo, no one wants 20 orks within their lines, espcially since youyr HTH guys are a tac squad backed up with 2 relativaly static vehicles.
Unleash the tac squad/cannon then at the lootas and dig in.

This would be even better with a little picture setup or diagrams

Reminds me of chess tasks that can be found in newspapers just far more interesting.

I think the options of splitting fire are minimal and I got nothing to add to what's been said before.
The ork's biggest threat on turn 1 are the lootas, turn 2 should be the boys and their wagon (ram)

But there's still some information I'd like to get: What's the mission? Depending on it the tac squad could proof expendable or vital.

Because i play Orks i am not going to tell you what to do.

This would be even better with a little picture setup or diagrams

Yeah, I totally agree. I will work on that for the next one I cook up. It was a kind of spur of the moment thing this morning because I got tired of reading threads in the tactics forum that were simple rehashes of "this is points effective" and "take this, not that" rather than actual discussions of how to use what you have to win given the situation on the board.



Q: As the Marine player, which of your weapon systems do you shoot first and at what target?

A: The first weapon system I'd shoot is the Predator since it is pretty much locked into a target. Even though the autocannon cannot break the front armor, the twin lascannons give you the best shot at destroying the battle wagon first. The other consideration in the order of fire is that since the battlewagon is about 24 inches away, if you pop it with the Predator and the Orc player places his orcs out front you might be able to range them with the Tac Squads bolters to inflict additional damage. Since the battlewagon cannot range you on turn one, the Thunderfire cannon needs to shoot the Lootas on Airburst mode. 4 blast templates wounding on 3s that ignore all saves for the Lootas should at the minimum force a moral test and severely reduce their numbers before the next turn unless the dice go completely south.

Q: Which orc unit poses the greatest threat to you on the orc turn one and (potentially) on the orc turn two?

A: The Lootas on turn one because of the number of shots they have against your Predator or Tac squad. The battlewagon & boy mob on turn two because they will have a guaranteed assault on you, even if you destroy the battle wagon on turn one (6" move + d6" run + 6" move + d6" WAAGH + 6" assault = minimum 20" move, maximum of 30"). Reducing the number of lootas on turn one will allow you to maximize fire against the boyz mob on turn two by protecting your own shooting. Particularly important if you get the chance to drop the Thunderfire templates on a boyz mob in the open.

As you can see, I'm pretty much on the same page as Not_U. I'll try to generate something more intricate later on to generate more discussion. Glad people like the thread idea though.

I get that the Battlewagon needs to die right away, but three Lascannon shots to its front armor will only do the trick if you are very lucky, the odds are not in your favor.

I would consider repositioning the Pred and/or Tac squad for side/rear shots against the 'wagon on subsequent turns. Make sure you are not in a position to get double charged also. I assume the Tactical unit is not combat squadded?

I suppose I'd move the Pred a full 12", putting distance between it and my own Tac squad and the battlewagon. I'd try to get cover from the Lootas and if not possible, I'd pop smoke. If my Tac Squad was not already deep in cover or at a higher level, I'd move and run them up, make it difficult for a turn 2 charge. I would then fire the thunderfire at the Lootas and hope to reduce their effectiveness, and leave the Thunderfire as charge bait for the 'wagon crew.

I agree with the solution but just to add that I think the biggest threat for the ork player is the thunderfire here. Assuming the pred and lascannon don't kill my wagon in the 1st turn it had already served its purpose in getting the boyz into charge range so I would be using my lootaz to drop the thunderfire.

If I was the ork player and I had first turn I would still probably shoot the thunderfire since the lootaz aren't amazingly useful against the pred.

@ kadun---That is a different way of looking at it. The only thing I don't really like is the idea of leaving the Thunderfire behind as it is your best weapon against the 20 boy mob. 10 Tactical marines, even with a good round of rapid fire, are still vulernable to being overun by an orc mob. Plus, repositioning the Tac squads means you lose a lascannon shot against the battlewagon. I think the trade off is an extra strength nine shot against preventing a second turn charge into the Tac squad. Good tactical decision point because you have to move the squad before seeing the results of the Predator's turn two shooting. Thanks for adding your thoughts to the tread.

@sirrobin---Agree with you. The thunderfire is an amazing anti-light infantry weapon, killing orcs in the open on 2+ no saves and orcs in cover on 3+ no saves. If the Marine players decides to drop subterranean blasts on the battlewagon in the hopes of making it roll a 1 and immobilize, he will have to make alot of 3+ cover saves to keep his best anti-troop weapon alive when the lootas return fire.

All---Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Keep the good comments coming.

I still think the three lascannons on the wagon is the best choice.

If you think about it statistically, one of the three is going to at least glance the front armor, then after that, you need a 4+ to stop their speedy assault.

And if you penetrate, you need a 3+ to blow it up! that's a good deal if you ask me

That is your best bet, and of course shoot the thunderfire at the lootas, they can seriously mess with a squad of ten marines

So statistically if you sit and shoot, 2 of your 3 Lascannons will hit.

Each of the two hits has a 2/3 chance of doing nothing.
The odds of both of them doing nothing are: 2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9.

This means you have a 5/9 chance that one shot will at least glance. Thats a coin flip slightly in your favor.

Now if you get a glance, only a 5 or 6 do you any good (1/3 chance). If you get a Pen, odds are better (3, 4, 5, 6 = 2/3 chance) of actually stopping the thing, but getting the Pen in the first place is difficult.

As I said, the statistics are not in your favor for getting a stop on the wagon turn 1. Basing decisions on such low percentages is a reason why so many players think that luck is such a huge factor in the game. Don't get me wrong, bad luck can and does affect a game, but losing a coin flip that decides the game is not bad luck, its poor tactical decisions.

Remember, you get to go first turn 2 after the wagon has moved. By repositioning turn 1, you set up a higher percentage shot on turn 2, and make it difficult for possibly footslogging Orks to change on turn 2.

I will concede, however, that the Thunderfire should also be re-positioned turn 1. They'll be more useful turn 2 to hit the Orks that pile out of the Battlewagon.

Two of the Lascannons are twin linked, that would guve you a higher rate to hit them with the cannons

A proper target priority schedule is key.

You are a Space Marine player squaring off against an Orc player. It is your turn one and the Orc player has failed to seize the initiative. You have a Thunderfire cannon, a Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons, and a Tactical Squad of 10 marines with a lascannon, meltagun, Sergeant with powerfist.

Schedule:

1. Battlewagon
2. Lootas
3. Ork passengers

I'd target the Battlewagon as follows:
1. Lascannon from Tactical unit
2. If the lascannon failed so that the Battlewagon can move next turn (no stun, immobilize or destroy result), I'd take the Predator.

If the Battlewagon cannot move next turn, I'd target the Lootas by the Predator and the Thundercannon.

The Thundercannon would target the Lootas anyway.

Play the orks at thier own game charge forward shooting and shouting

or not, because then they'll just curbstomp you when they get the charge out of the wagon and the lootas will take the pred apart.

1. Thunderfire at Lootas.
2. Predator at the Battlewagon.
3a. If Predator gets lucky and kills BW, marines will shoot boyz if they disembark in front of the thing.
3b. If, as expected, BW survives, marines Run into an upper story of the building, or deeper into it if no upper stories exist..

Analysis:
The Thunderfire has a great chance of killing or crippling the Lootas before they hurt you, so that's a no-brainer. It would be a nice tool against the boys if you did manage to pop the BW, but that’s a long shot. Assuming the BW is indeed 24” away, the boyz inside only need a 3” run roll to reach the assault on a Waaagh- more likely it’s a 2+ because the BW probably has a red paint job. So if the BW doesn’t die on the first turn, the boyz are almost guaranteed to assault you. At that point the Thunderfire is expendable, but the marines are not.

The Predator is second, because if the Thunderfire craps out against the Lootas, the pred might be able to put the extra wound or two on them to render them ineffective or better ensure that they break. You need to make sure to render at least one of the ork maneuver elements/threats ineffective.

The Marines are third because this way you retain their ability to either a) put early wounds on the boyz if you get lucky with the pred, or b) move up (or deeper into) the difficult terrain ruin to reduce the chances of them being assaulted. The math given earlier on the boyz’ assault distance was wrong. If they’re on foot, they only go 6” + d6 Run/Fleet + Best of 2d6” assault distance. Plus up to 3” for their disembark distance from a wrecked (but not exploded) BW. That’s a maximum of 21”, so you’re safe for a turn in that event.

In the more likely event that the BW survives, the Marines have a decent chance of getting out of assault range, given that the Ork assault move will be into Difficult terrain.

My only waffle is whether the marines should be retreating in the movement phase and not even bother waiting for an opportunity to shoot boyz if the pred gets lucky. The risk/reward ratio may be a bit too high to take that chance.

Id consider splitting your forces so he orks are forced to split up. The battlewaggon needs to be stunned/shaken at least so it cant reach your lines. Id propose run and shoot tactics

Wrong. This is obviously the critical point of the battle. You need to concentrate to take the orks out. And if you're running and shooting with bolters, that means you're getting charged next turn.

If the Predator doesn't stop the Battle Wagon on turn 1, then I would drive it forward with smokes deployed to block the Battle Wagon and buy time. This forces the orks to either disembark and blow up the Predator, or waste a turn and drive around it. In the meantime the Thunderfire would continue to pound the lootas.

PanzerLeader wrote:Ladies and gents,

In the interest of fostering tactical discussions beyond the simple ones involving list building, I've decided to post a game-type situation and ask for your solutions to it. I will post my own later. It should allow us to create a good situational discussion and possibly learn a thing or two from one another. Enjoy.

-Mike K

The Situation: You are a Space Marine player squaring off against an Orc player. It is your turn one and the Orc player has failed to seize the initiative. You have a Thunderfire cannon, a Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons, and a Tactical Squad of 10 marines with a lascannon, meltagun, Sergeant with powerfist. The Thunderfire cannon and the tac squad are deployed in a bolstered set of ruins. The predator is behind a low wall that is too shallow to give it cover. Across from you, the Orc player has a squad of 10 lootas tucked inside a forest and a battlewagon with deff rollas loaded down with 20 boyz with a powerklaw nob and 3 rokkits. You estimate that the battlewagon is about 24 inches away from your lines.

Questions: As the Marine player, which of your weapon systems do you shoot first and at what target? Which orc unit poses the greatest threat to you on the orc turn one and (potentially) on the orc turn two?

Marines combat squad. Lascannon + 4 bolter marines / Sergeant + Meltagun + 3 bolter marines. Meltagun squad is in front of the lascannon squad.

The Thunderfire Cannon shoots Airburst at the Lootas. Predator moves 6" to get a side shot on the BW and shoots autocannon and lascannon at the side armor. Lascannon marines goes towards the BW again.

Orks move up. You have 1 turn till they assault.

If the Lootas aren't gone then Airburst them again. Predator target priority = Battlewagon > Lootas > Boyz. Meltagun marines = if the orks are out in the open and within 12", they move towards the orks, shoot their bolt pistols and assault and the lascannon squad moves up and rapid fires. If not within 12" stays put and shoots. If the BW is still alive and they are 12" away at the start of the turn, move 6" and meltagun it. If its out of 12", then stay put and wait.

Lootas are dead by now, if BW is still alive the meltagun marines probably got charged. If they are still alive, they ATSKNF and run and everythin hits the boyz, but the predator still has its target priority.

If the Orks survive the barrage, assault with the other combat squad and do the same ATSKNF if they don't get wiped out.

Predator and Tac Marines fire at the battlewagon, becuase they have a good chance to get rid of it turn 1 before it becomes a serious threat.
thunderfire goes airburst against the lootas, which should, with any luck, mean my predator should survive the next turn.

Turn 1
Bolster defence Place TF as far back in terrain whilst maintaining LOS use ignores cover round
I would combat squad
put 5 marines inc sgt with powerfist and meltagun next to TF, Shoot TF at lootas
Deploy predator away from main unit, 2nd combat squad with predator, bulk of 2nd unit behind Pred,Marines LC with LOS at BW.
Marines shoot LC at BW first, if lucky then pred can shoot at bisembarked boys or lootas if necessary.
Turn 2
It's my experience that the Cannon gets destroyed first leaving Tech to join combat squad, this is now a good assault/close combat squad deep in terrain with flamer and plasma, Melta ,PF, Servo Harness.
Shoot TF at lootas if not destroyed or at boys if disembarked( if boys disembark under2" from lootas then use diff terrain round and try to get template to cover both units)
Continue to shoot at BW if not destroyed.

The Ork player will have to decide where to attack with BW as he can't split his force.

This is certainly an interesting discussion. I also don't think the choice of targets is as clear cut as many would think. I don't have time to do a full post right now but I will throw some ideas in the pot to stew.

The Thunder Cannon can force a dangerous terrain test on the battle waggon. As such firing it last is potentially the best choice if you are really worried about those 20 orc boys and the wagon, or if you can arrange for the loota's to have an ineffective first turn in shooting as it leaves you with plenty of options for firing! (Does tremor cause a difficult/dangerous terrain test for each blast that hits the battlewagon?)

I'll post my actual choice of actions for the first turn later.

There are some dubious tactics in this thread, and a few people who have made simple rules errors.

Several posters are operating under the mistaken assumption that the Orks in the BW aren’t already in assault range, for example. Others thought that there were twin-linked Lascannons in the equation, or that a Pred could move & shoot with more than one weapon.

Got to be sure that you know the rules on which you’re basing your tactics.

The positions of the units on the board can make a significant difference, too. I know you gave a few distances, but are the units positioned as such that if the battlewagon moves forward it will block LoS between the Lootas and their targets?

Shooting at the BW with the pred is a pretty big waste of time in my opinion. It's far better to waste one turn repositioning (and throwing smoke down) to hit side armour than it is to blindly shoot AV14.

The math given earlier on the boyz’ assault distance was wrong. If they’re on foot, they only go 6” + d6 Run/Fleet + Best of 2d6” assault distance. Plus up to 3” for their disembark distance from a wrecked (but not exploded) BW. That’s a maximum of 21”, so you’re safe for a turn in that event.

Just to clarify. The math I gave earlier was based on the boyz being on foot for two turns and using WAAGH! on turn two. Thats how I came up with 6"+d6"+6"+d6+6" assault for a minimum of 20" to a maximum of 30". I did forget to account for the 3" potential disembark though. Tried showcasing the best case scenario for the marines and why I consider it essential to take all 3 shots with the lascannons at the predator.

There are some dubious tactics in this thread, and a few people who have made simple rules errors.

Several posters are operating under the mistaken assumption that the Orks in the BW aren’t already in assault range, for example. Others thought that there were twin-linked Lascannons in the equation, or that a Pred could move & shoot with more than one weapon.

Got to be sure that you know the rules on which you’re basing your tactics.

I agree here, but it does meet the intent of why I opened the thread. By promoting situational discussion, I'm hoping to at least expose people to the different ideas of how to fight situations and hopefully a few will listen and improve their game. If nothing else, hopefully it will make people take abstract concepts, such as target priority, and give them something to apply it rather than the narrow focus of army choice discussion we see here most of the time.

I don't really have an analysis for this particular situation, as I don't know anything about vanilla marines, other than whoever deployed that Tac Sqd without combat squading it made a poor decision, IMO.

My knowledge of orks is pretty limited as well. I've gathered a BW is AV 14, but I don't really know what lootas do. I know about boys and face them down in CC all the time.

However, I love the idea of the thread, and will contribute when I can, and hope to learn something new from each one.