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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

And this from MSNBC no less. As its not Fox it has to be accurate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33336289/ns/politics-washington_post/

Overweight? Smoker? Health bills hit hard
Bills could put workers under pressure to lose weight, stop smoking
By David S. Hilzenrath
The Washington Post
updated 8:18 p.m. CT, Thurs., Oct . 15, 2009
Get in shape or pay a price.

That's a message more Americans could hear if the health care reform bills passed by the Senate Finance and Health committees become law.

By more than doubling the maximum rewards and penalties that companies can apply to employees who flunk medical evaluations, the bills could put workers under intense financial pressure to lose weight, stop smoking or even lower their cholesterol.

The initiative, largely eclipsed in the health care debate, builds on a trend that is already in play among some corporations and that more workers will see in the packages they bring home during this month's open enrollment. Some employers offer lower premiums to people who complete personal health assessments; others offer only limited benefit packages to smokers.

The current legislative effort takes the trend a step further. It is backed by major employer groups, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers. It is opposed by labor unions and groups devoted to combating serious illnesses, such as the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, and the American Diabetes Association.

A colossal loophole?
President Obama and members of Congress have declared that they are trying to create a system in which no one can be denied coverage or charged higher premiums based on their health status. The health insurance lobby has said it shares that goal. However, so-called wellness incentives could introduce a colossal loophole. In effect, they would permit insurers and employers to make coverage less affordable for people exhibiting risk factors for problems like diabetes, heart disease and stroke.

"Everybody said that we're going to be ending discrimination based on preexisting conditions. But this is in effect discrimination again based on preexisting conditions," said Ann Kempski of the Service Employees International Union.

The legislation would make exceptions for people who have medical reasons for not meeting targets.

Supporters say economic incentives can prompt workers to make healthier choices, thereby reducing medical expenses. The aim is to "focus on wellness and prevention rather than just disease and treatment," said Business Roundtable president John J. Castellani.

BeniComp Group, an Indiana company that manages incentives for employers, says on its Web site that the programs can save employers money in a variety of ways. Medical screenings will catch problems early. Employers will shift costs to others. Some employees will "choose other health care options."

Douglas J. Short, BeniComp's chief executive, said the incentives he uses focus on outcomes, not conditions.

"I can't give you an incentive based on being a diabetic or not being a diabetic, but whether you're managing your blood glucose level — I can give you an incentive based on that," Short said.

National epidemic of obesity
The incentives could attack a national epidemic of obesity. They also cut to a philosophical core of the health care debate. Should health insurance be like auto insurance, in which good drivers earn discounts and reckless ones pay a price, thereby encouraging better habits? Or should it be a safety net in which the young and healthy support the old and sick with the understanding that youth and good health are transitory?

Under current regulation, incentives based on health factors can be no larger than 20 percent of the premium paid by employer and employee combined. The legislation passed by the Health and Finance committees would increase the limit to 30 percent, and it would give government officials the power to raise it to 50 percent.

A single employee whose annual premiums cost him and his employer the national average of $4,824 could have as much as $2,412 on the line. At least under the Health Committee bill, the stakes could be higher for people with family coverage. Families with premiums of $13,375 — the combined average for employer-sponsored coverage, according to a recent survey — could have $6,687.50 at risk.

An amendment passed unanimously by the Health Committee would allow insurers to use the same rewards and penalties in the market for individual insurance, though legislative language subsequently drafted by the committee's Democratic staff does not reflect that vote, Sen. Mike Enzi (Wyo.), for the committee's ranking Republican, has said. The bill drafted by the Senate Finance Committee would set up a trial program allowing insurers in 10 states to use wellness-based incentives for individuals.

America's Health Insurance Plans, an industry lobby, has argued that insurers should be allowed to consider participation in wellness programs when setting individual premiums.

Wellness incentives voluntary
Employers and other advocates of expanded wellness incentives say taking steps to get healthier would be voluntary. Sen. John Ensign, a Nevada Republican and lead sponsor of the Finance Committee's wellness provision, said his proposal "would guarantee that the incentive is strong enough for Americans to want to participate."

Wellness incentives have been spreading rapidly in the corporate world. Unlike the legislative proposals, which address incentives based on results, the corporate programs typically compensate employees based on effort alone — for example, enrolling in smoking cessation programs even if they fail to kick the habit, or undergoing detailed medical assessments regardless of the findings. But there are exceptions: The Safeway supermarket company allows certain employees to reduce their premiums by meeting standards for body mass and other measures. Safeway chief executive Steve Burd has framed it as an issue of personal responsibility.


Valeo, a supplier of auto parts, four years ago raised the deductible on an employee health plan to $2,200 from $200 for individual coverage and to $4,400 from $400 for family coverage. Then it gave employees the opportunity to reduce the deductible to its starting point by being nonsmokers and meeting goals for blood pressure, cholesterol, and body mass index, said Robert Wade, Valeo's director of human resources for North America.

"If they don't comply they end up being penalized, if you will, but we refer to it as a Healthy Rewards program," Wade said.

Workers who choose not to submit to yearly medical assessments have been offered a different health plan that carries higher premiums, Wade said.


Results are mixed for some programs
The results are mixed. The number of employees meeting some targets in the Healthy Rewards program has risen while the number meeting others has fallen, Wade said. On average, employees have succeeded in bringing their deductibles down to about $600 in the case of individual coverage. Meanwhile, Valeo has managed to keep annual increases in health care costs per employee down to about 1 percent, he said, which is far below average.

Higher deductibles alone could explain some of the savings. They can make people more cost-conscious when deciding whether to go to the doctor or obtain other medical services.

Paychex, a payroll management company, offers incentives for participation in wellness programs but refrains from pegging them to biometric targets.

"Employees could be doing everything right and still not achieve the desired outcome. And so then you're holding them accountable for something that may not be achievable," said Jake Flaitz, the company's director of benefits.

Workers at a company called Bemis, which makes packaging, went on strike this year partly because the firm was insisting that they and their spouses submit to health risk assessments to remain eligible for their health insurance, the Workers United union said in an August news release. The union called the assessments "invasive."


North Carolina has angered some state employees by introducing a wellness program that would limit the most generous benefits package to those who meet body mass targets and don't smoke. The state would allow employees to satisfy the requirement by enrolling in weight management or smoking cessation programs.

When fully implemented, the program is projected to reduce the state health plan's medical expenses by 1.2 percent, spokeswoman Linda McCrudden said by e-mail.

The top executive at the health plan, Jack W. Walker, predicted that over the long run the federal government will pay for North Carolina's success. State workers who live longer will spend more time collecting benefits from Medicare, the federal insurance program for older Americans, he said.


© 2009 The Washington Post Company
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33336289/ns/politics-washington_post/



-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I for one welcome our new enforcers of healthy living!

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Argh you beat me to it.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wait a minute! Congress is writing a bill that has as many loopholes as a GW rulebook? That's inconceivable!

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Professional




Empire Of Denver, Urth

We are living in Douglas Adams' head.

“It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood” -- Karl Popper 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The land of cotton.

"Change you can believe in..." whether you like it or not!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

Frazzled wrote:And this from MSNBC no less. As its not Fox it has to be accurate.


I think you mean, "Somewhat accurate." or possibly "Mostly true."

Zip Napalm wrote:We are living in Douglas Adams' head.


Then where is my Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster?

The Green Git wrote:"Change you can believe in..." whether you like it or not!


Yeah, well it is the only real and effective way to curb medical costs in the future. Until the drug companies invent the latest candy that helps us lose weight, that is.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, someone needs to invent a Snickers bar that actually lowers your cholesterol, makes you shed pounds and increases longevity.

I think I'll get out my lab kit and get to work.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

I here this stuff is pretty good...



It makes you live longer (as long as you keep taking it) but I hear it also stains your eyes blue, gives you really F-ed up dreams (sometimes while awake) and is terribly addictive and poisonous (i.e. you quit, you die).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/16 19:41:10


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So like a Snickers bar.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

Fateweaver wrote:So like a Snickers bar.



Yeah, I guess so! For me it's the plain ol' Hersey's but the point is the same!

 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator



Seattle, WA

You know, I actually see this as an interesting argument. Weight and health issues are not protected under the US Constitution, therefore companies and even the government can regulate health insurance as long as they do no discriminate base on the usual categories. Discrimination based on weight is ok as far as I can tell. Thus it would fall under rational scruitny.

Would it pass Congress? Well, that depends on whether or not voting for this legislation will impact re-election chances. I think most people are not well informed to make that determination.

Great article !!
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

One problem that I see here is that most people that are lower income can't afford to eat healthy. Processed foods are much cheaper than organic, so by making someone's insurance cost more due to weight issues only perpetuates the problem. More money spent on health insurance = less money spent on some what healthy food.

Another issue: stop persecuting the damn smokers!

DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah...ask any Hooters waitress that goes from being 5'8, 120 pounds and suddenly shoots up to 140. Loss of job and there is no law against it. It happens quite a lot that models or "symbols of sex", ie Hooters and other cocktail waitresses (and waiters) can lose their jobs over gaining weight.

I don't agree that you should lose your job over gaining 20 pounds but it's also good that the government hasn't stuck their nose in that issue....yet and has left it up to individual employers to decide what's a firing offense and what isn't. That should be an employer right (as long as it obviously isn't about race or religion or sex or age).

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

I assume no one here has seen the height/weight restrictions on most life/medical insurance policies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:01:19


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator



Seattle, WA

That reminds me of the Southwest airlines case I read for my employment law class. It was in the 1970's and the plaintiff was a stewardress who sued Southwest because the company policy was that stewardress must wear a specific outfit that tailors to the Southwest airline image at the time. The image was based on a "Love" theme. When the stewardress refused to wear her uniform Southwest airlines fired her. Eventually the court found that Southwest had no authority to fire her and that the "uniform" was not part of the business goal of Southwest airlines. The court found the main purpose of Southwest airlines was to transport passengers in airplanes.

Unfortunately that case is no longer precedent due to more recent court decisions that now favor big business.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




youngblood wrote:One problem that I see here is that most people that are lower income can't afford to eat healthy. Processed foods are much cheaper than organic, so by making someone's insurance cost more due to weight issues only perpetuates the problem. More money spent on health insurance = less money spent on some what healthy food.

Another issue: stop persecuting the damn smokers!


Oh poor smokers. Choose to start doing something unhealthy and dumb even though the warning signs have been in place for what now? 50+ years? and you get all aggrieved when people don't feel sorry for you. 100 years ago I could see not knowing the dangers as even then doctors didn't know the dangers. Ever since they put warning labels on cigs there is not one good reason for people to start up smoking. Peer pressure =/= an excuse to start; stress =/= a reason to start; health factors = a reason to stay away. Yet people start up every day. I'm glad cigs doubled in price (at least in this State) and I'd love for the state of Mn to jack cigs up to about $8 a pack for generics and use the money to fix the roads or build a new stadium for the Vikings football team. So forgive me if I don't feel sorry for someone starting something that that person had total control of NOT to start doing.

Drinking radiator coolant isn't good for your health either and it clearly says so on the jugs so I'm not going to feel sympathy for someone who decides it is in their best interest somehow to start drinking it.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander




The home of the Alamo, TX

Going to read the article later but I'm all for a 'fat tax' type of idea especially in a national health care system.

People who gorge themselves into obesity and don't have a legitimate medical condition should 'pay the price' not only healthwise but financially as well. Hell they already do in some instances like buying two airplane seats. If you're unhealthy and overweight you're part of whats wrong with the Westernized world - hell the newer generations are expected to live shorter than previous ones...something unprecedented IIRC.

Obesity/overweight/unhealthiness is a big problem in America and really all Westernized societies - having government sponsored consequences and benefits regarding this area of life would go a long way in improving society physically and mentally.

And is another reason why I'm a fan of mandatory military/civil service like several other countries have. Gives people some confidence and balls by putting them through boot camp environments and getting accustomed to a physical fitness routine and tests.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:05:08




 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Fateweaver wrote: stress =/= a reason to start


See, I hate when people use this line of reasoning. There are plenty of thing we do to relieve stress, in fact I'd say most of them, that aren't good for us. That's the nature of the beast; especially in instances where your options for stress relief are limited.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

Fateweaver wrote:
youngblood wrote:One problem that I see here is that most people that are lower income can't afford to eat healthy. Processed foods are much cheaper than organic, so by making someone's insurance cost more due to weight issues only perpetuates the problem. More money spent on health insurance = less money spent on some what healthy food.

Another issue: stop persecuting the damn smokers!


Oh poor smokers. Choose to start doing something unhealthy and dumb even though the warning signs have been in place for what now? 50+ years? and you get all aggrieved when people don't feel sorry for you. 100 years ago I could see not knowing the dangers as even then doctors didn't know the dangers. Ever since they put warning labels on cigs there is not one good reason for people to start up smoking. Peer pressure =/= an excuse to start; stress =/= a reason to start; health factors = a reason to stay away. Yet people start up every day. I'm glad cigs doubled in price (at least in this State) and I'd love for the state of Mn to jack cigs up to about $8 a pack for generics and use the money to fix the roads or build a new stadium for the Vikings football team. So forgive me if I don't feel sorry for someone starting something that that person had total control of NOT to start doing.

Drinking radiator coolant isn't good for your health either and it clearly says so on the jugs so I'm not going to feel sympathy for someone who decides it is in their best interest somehow to start drinking it.


If people want to smoke a cigarette, they should be able to do so. Pursuit of happiness. Cigarette smokers are becoming a persecuted bunch here. I'm not saying a smoker's health insurance shouldn't be obscene, I'm just tired of seeing smokers getting pushed around. Our president is hooked for lordy's goodness gracious sakes


and take this!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:13:09


DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

inquisitor_bob wrote:You know, I actually see this as an interesting argument. Weight and health issues are not protected under the US Constitution, therefore companies and even the government can regulate health insurance as long as they do no discriminate base on the usual categories. Discrimination based on weight is ok as far as I can tell. Thus it would fall under rational scruitny.

Would it pass Congress? Well, that depends on whether or not voting for this legislation will impact re-election chances. I think most people are not well informed to make that determination.

Great article !!

Please show me the Constitutional power permitting mandated health insurance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:I assume no one here has seen the height/weight restrictions on most life/medical insurance policies?

Not on mine thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:22:10


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





How is being overweight, smoking, driving a car without a seatbelt, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet (aka Donor Bike) not increasing your risk of health problems, injuries, and/or death? They all do. Hey, maybe if I had to pay Uncle Sam $40 a month, I'd get a little more serious about losing weight.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

here's some other factors that increase your health risks
Drinking
eating carbohydrates
eating fat
driving fast
driving
having sex
leaving the house
being young
being old
going to the doctor
going to the hospital
working
not working
being homeless



-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

If I want to be out of shape and drink beer for 90% of my diet, the government should feth off. That's like telling me I have to pay because I'm gay. (Just for clarity later, I am not a homosexual, I am most likely "gay" in how 13 year olds use it though)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:31:22


DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

You know, I have no issues with extra laws or costs for the obese.

dietrich wrote:How is being overweight, smoking, driving a car without a seatbelt, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet (aka Donor Bike) not increasing your risk of health problems, injuries, and/or death? They all do. Hey, maybe if I had to pay Uncle Sam $40 a month, I'd get a little more serious about losing weight.


As a motorcyclist, I pay an extra premium because I engage in a high-risk activity. Several states base their helmet law justification on the fact that it costs taxpayer money to pay for motorcycle injuries. I pay extra for my insurance, I pay extra for my licences - even as I'm using less gasoline (a good thing) than a cager. Driving without a seatbelt incurs a stiff fine around here, for the same reason, BTW.

Obese people incur significantly higher healthcare costs throughout their lives. It isn't about the increased chance of dying young, it's about all the chronic diseases that come with obesity, that do not impact longevity. They should be required to pay extra to support this choice that they have made, just as I pay extra for the risky activity that I engage in.

It's about the fact that hospitals have to pay more to have over-sized beds and equipment installed to cater to the obese. It's the fact that an obese person requires two to four times the nursing staff to do simple tasks as does a person of average weight. Consider simply turning a patient to prevent bedsores, or moving a patient onto a gurney or giving them a bath.

Obese people require more time and staff for the same surgeries as do average-weight patients. Cutting through an extra hundred pounds of fat to perform an operation not only increases the risk, but also the time required to perform that operation.

Yes, we all die of something. But the costs, both direct (more nurses) and indirect (MRI machines needs to be made bigger) impact all of us. If you want to overeat yourself into oblivion, I don't see why I should be footing the bill.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/10/16 20:43:25


   
Made in us
Battlefield Professional




Empire Of Denver, Urth

dogma wrote:I assume no one here has seen the height/weight restrictions on most life/medical insurance policies?


If I don't like the restrictions from one insurance company I can try another. The process is a little more involved when dealing with the government.

“It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood” -- Karl Popper 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

Redbeard wrote:If you want to overeat yourself into oblivion, I don't see why I should be footing the bill.


What if I want to drink myself into oblivion, will you pick up the bill then? What if I invite you to join in?

DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Zip Napalm wrote:
If I don't like the restrictions from one insurance company I can try another. The process is a little more involved when dealing with the government.


Not particularly. Height/weight restrictions are an industry standard. If you want to get around them you either pay more, or get a sub-prime policy.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern






Time to exercise fatties! But panic not, your Uncle Kenneth is here to show you how!



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Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Beaverton, OR

It seems somewhat obvious to me that some Americans need a kick in the crotch in order to start eating better or exercising more. Usually that kick is a heart attack, a stroke, or developing diabetes.

So it comes down to this: do you want the government to tell you to start eating better/exercising, or do you want to wait for the heart attack to hit and very possibly be fatal?

If I give you a cookie, will you go away? If I give you the bag, will you go far, far away?
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