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I must just be cursed. I keep trying different things.

Exalted Hero, steed of slaanesh, sword of might, blasphemous amulet, bloodcurdling roar, shield.

I took this guy and charged a white lion chariot, thinking I'd put some serious hurt on the thing and avoid it charging into my more valuable units. White lions ASF, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 failed saves, champion is dead. He's only T4 and has a 2+ save, how does anyone expect something like that to survive in fantasy? In 40k sure that's really tough, but when your save is modified to 4+, the odds of you dying get pretty high.

In that same army, I tried blocks of 12 chaos warriors. I've been reading that my usual tactics of taking 6x3 18 warriors or better for me, 5x4 20 warriors is a horrible waste of points and I shouldn't ever do that. 12 is easily enough, after all.

Well, his archers spent the first couple turns as I advanced taking down a rank of each. Now they're just one line of warriors. When we finally got to combat, what happened? Well, I consistently lost by 1! He had small units, too. Units that just barely outnumbered me. Unit that wouldn't have outnumbered me if I'd had that extra rank to start with, not to mention I'd still have a rank bonus when I got to combat. A difference of winning by 2 in most of those combats, rather than losing by 1. And with a crappy Ld 8, all my units ran every single time they were offered a chance.

I brought hounds to screen, but that did little - first of all he was on a hill, so he could ignore them, but in the first turn he just targetted all three units of hounds and each one was wiped out, just by archers shooting. He didn't even have a lot, just two units of archers and a single bolt thrower. How are hounds supposed to protect anything, they just die in one volley from anything at all. Following that, the marauder horsemen I had planned to use to flank things took a hit, lost 3, panicked and ran. Figures the one time I don't put a mark of Slaanesh on them, that happens - but losing 3 of 5 means they're pretty much useless anyway, and that was on a bad roll on his part.

What's the point? Aren't chaos warriors supposed to be awesome and tough? They just take a beating and then run away like chumps. ASF, hatred, killing blow, Warrior Elite, these rules are all over other armies and they make their poor stats end with better results than chaos's usual straight-up 3+ to hit. A bad roll to hit can be mitigated by hatred, easily. My warshrine wouldn't miss 4 of 5 attacks if it had hatred.

Here's my point: Spend the extra 80 points or whatever on an extra rank of chaos warriors. It's NOT a waste. Spending 250 points on 12 of them that are just going to suck, run, and die and give the enemy a banner is a waste. Adding 80 more so they can WIN and KILL the enemy makes them worthwhile. This game relies on two players rolling small handfuls of dice against one another, and the standard deviation means that fairly often, you'll miss more attacks than you should, or fail more armour saves than you should. It's not ALL about luck, but when the enemy is ahead of you in static combat res, they've effectively already killed 3-4 of your guys and now you're struggling to win. Even up the odds a bit.

As far as the characters go, I'm at an impasse. In my VC army I have 3 vampires that are naked. They always seem to survive. They take a wound here and there, but it gets healed and they go on. My chaos characters? Anything with 2 attacks easily hacks off their 2 wounds. A knight and a horse will kill them. I really don't know what to do anymore. Everything costs so many points, but has no special rules. They just sit on high WS and T, and pray it's enough. It never is. And then with their low Ld of 8 [even sorceror lord and daemon princes], they're very likely to run if they ever lose combat at all.

really?

Unless this is a troll, I have a very hard time buying anything you're selling here.

Chaos is a terribad army, but they have disgusting survivability and depend on their characters to do their heavy lifting.

One thing you definitely want to look into, though, is that the 4x3 unit is a last edition staple that is worthless this edition. 5x3 is the bare minimum.

Also the lions in a HE chariot don't have ASF, meaning you should have autokilled the chariot, assuming the 1 str 3 attack and the 1 str 4 attack from the elf didn't rock your chaos champion.

The White Lion warriors riding it do, though.

Sounds like you just had some unfortunate rolls and that your opponent had some really good rolling.

Agree with Jin.

Try again, perhaps things will work out differently.
O, and the idea that taking more guys in a unit means that they will survive shooting is a fallacy. You will end up with the same number of models (just in fewer units) and they will end up taking the same number of wounds and losing the same number of guys.

Just remember, if T4 2+save is weak what is T3, 5+save?

Or, and I know this is going to sound stupid, but you could put your character in a unit instead of running him around on his own. Charging your hero into a chariot by himself was not a smart idea.

Why warriors? You should have Marauder Fast Cav and KNIGHTS!!!!!

1. Take a Ward Save.

2. Take a Great Weapon. If you're going to charge your character at a Chariot, make sure he's equipped to do so.

3. Run your Warriors in 2 Ranks of 6.

4. Grab some Chaos Knights.

5. Of course a Vampire is going to survive, He can re-gain wounds!

I really don't know what else to say.

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Cryonicleech wrote:
2. Take a Great Weapon. If you're going to charge your character at a Chariot, make sure he's equipped to do so.

He's mounted, that would only make him S6. Not enough, and they still ASF, so what difference does that make? I've considered a flail....

Cryonicleech wrote:

3. Run your Warriors in 2 Ranks of 6.

That's what I did. It's not enough. The enemy's got more combat res, and I need to roll very well to win combat by enough to expect them to run.

Cryonicleech wrote:
4. Grab some Chaos Knights.

Yes, a unit with next to zero combat res that depends on rolls entirely and are only Ld 8. I tend to NEVER cause my enemy to break and get charged in the flank.

Spellbound wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Wouldn't it have helped in the scenario posted?

Even white lions get ASF? ( speed of asuryan ) ?

wow -_-

malfred wrote:

Spellbound wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:1. Take a Ward Save.

Oh yeah, chaos has LOTS of those, let me tell you. What is it, like... one? Against non-magical attacks only, and it's incredibly expensive? That will rarely help.

Wouldn't it have helped in the scenario posted?

Yep. It's just too bad it's really only useful in that kind of situation, and costs 35 points, leaving me with....not enough to buy a worthwhile magical weapon. This brings me back to my thinking of maybe giving this guy a flail, but again why should chaos pay 35 for armour that gives a 4+ versus nonmagical while DE pays the same amount for a necklace that gives a 4+ if the enemy's S3, and a 2+ if the enemy's S5?

Though I have found the weakness of the pendant though, that being if the attack has no S, you get no save. Spells that wound on a 4+ or do an auto-wound, for example.

I just think it's funny that another suit of armour chaos has, the Armour of Zhrakk, disallows you from giving others your leadership - but a sorceror lord can wear it and lose nothing from it - his leadership is the same as half the army anyway!

LunaHound wrote:
Even white lions get ASF? ( speed of asuryan ) ?

wow -_-

Should be just the dudes in the Chariot, not the lions themselves, iirc.

Heh... yeah, only the Elves themselves get it, not their bloody horses.

Chaos is definately NOT weak if you look at the stats, compared to most other races they have High weapon skill, high toughness and strength, high saves and above avarage Ld. ld 8 is not bad in wfb were plenty of armies have to settle for ld 5 or 7.

Chaos' weakness is the high points value of the warriors, you pay for their above avarage abilities, and the lack of missile troops (which is the counter for HE ASF). If you lack mass, why not take along some Marauders to bulk up your forces? Their stats may be a bit lower, they are cheaper too, and outfight the avarage human, skaven, orc and goblin, hit stuff as well as elves and can provide the rank bonus you need.
Need some missile screens? Hounds of Chaos, marauder horsemen and Chaos Knights are Chaos' answer to shooting. They either draw away fire from the infantry or can engage the missile troops within two turns to prevent them from firing and killing them.

A lack of (universal) special rules, while you find it annoying, is not so bad for chaos. Chaos could be quite overpowered in previous editions (and they once had an extremely annoying special rule I call "The Chaos Farts on your Face phase"). Their troops are tough combat monsters if used correctly. There are few other creatures that can stand up to a Chaos warrior one on one. When we consider unit combat however, Chaos Warriors lack numbers by themselves, so need support to balance or cancel the enemy's rank bonus or do plenty of damage, which requires luck. You can't rely on the dice to help you, if you do, murphy's law means you only roll for hitting and killing and for ld tests.

It seems your defeat has more to do with luck than the quality of your troops and characters. Play Empire or Greenskins for a while and you'll see how indecent it is to complain about chaos being weak... I mean, for the love of Khorne, how can you say 2+ save (and T5!) is fething weak when the majority of troops have to settle for a save of 5+ and T3!

True, the universal ASF high elves have is very, very, very annoying (it's GW sanctioned cheating IMO), one only can try to find a way to get around that when facing them... And Chaos has little options but to close in for combat and suck up the damage as far as I can see.

As a HE player, I have no idea what your talking about.

Our only army wide strength is that we strike first which reduces the amount of damage we normally take in close combat, and possibly allows us to win.

Chaos Warriors, are stronger, tougher, and have an incredible armor save, our only real chance to win that combat is if they decide to attack our units of Sword Masters, if we send any other units to engage them we get killed horribly. Oh and our special units like Sword Masters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard cost nearly as much as your chaos warriors.

I am starting to think that you became way to reliant on your Vampires incredible toughness.

Oh and if you want to deal with shooting, just use the Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes, they routinely kill off archers, and occasionally kill our bolt throwers.

citadel97501 wrote:
Chaos Warriors, are stronger, tougher, and have an incredible armor save, our only real chance to win that combat is if they decide to attack our units of Sword Masters, if we send any other units to engage them we get killed horribly. Oh and our special units like Sword Masters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard cost nearly as much as your chaos warriors.

I am starting to think that you became way to reliant on your Vampires incredible toughness.

Oh and if you want to deal with shooting, just use the Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes, they routinely kill off archers, and occasionally kill our bolt throwers.

The marauder horsemen that are already dead?

10 archers at long range means 5 hit, 3ish wound. I get only a 6+ save so that means pretty much 3 are dead. Provided I pass the panic test, 2 marauders aren't going to be doing much.

Honestly I'm BAFFLED why you'd say I became reliant on my vampires. A regular vampire is T4 with 2 wounds and no armour, yet they consistently survive longer than my exalted heroes. I really don't know why. My exalted heroes die to a strong breeze.

Undead just have the advantage. I can go in with +3 ranks, banner and numbers, have my vampire kill 1 or 2, win combat and the enemy auto-breaks. Putting a character with my marauders, IF he survives, I may win combat by 1 or 2 but that's all, and the enemy holds. Next round I've got fewer marauders, and it gets harder and harder to win the protracted combat. And the second I lose, I'm gone - I can't pass any leadership for any reason, ever.

Other armies have leadership 5 or 7, but they have special rules to mitigate that. Skaven in units with ranks will be Ld 8, same as chaos. If their general is nearby they'll be leadership 10. Elf generals are usually 10, same with DE and dwarves. Lizardmen get cold-blooded, meaning even a Ld 6 skink has an excellent chance to pass. Empire has ld 10 generals too.

Chaos gets 8 across the board, as if they're self-reliant and don't need their general. The general's only a 9 anyway, with no special stubborn rules or anything. It seems the army was designed to be absolutely dependent on warshrines - it's the only way they can get a ward save or stubborn, and it grants units abilities and boosts their fighting prowess. I'm going to keep experimenting - what I don't want to do is the favour of the gods chosen deathstar that gets 3 warshrine buffs. I'd like to see how spreading it around the army works. Maybe dragon ogres or knights would be really terrifying if they got some of those.

Are you fighting the enemy 1 on 1? It may be fluffy, but with a MSE (multiple small elite) army, you need to combo charge and flank to win. Even chaos knights don't win against full res blocks often enough if they charge alone and in the front.

Chaos Warriors are not a plug and play army that any person can pick up and do well with (like VC and daemons). They have very few real options, most of their choices are the illusion of options. Their is a reason the all/mostly cav heavy magic w/ warshrines is considered the most powerful version of the list. If you are playing with a heavy foot component, then you are going to have big trouble bringing your might to enemy.

Empire has ld 10 generals too.

Empire has one, LD 10 general. The rest of them max out at 9.

Anyway, overall it sounds like you had one bad game from Elves. And Elves are suppossed to be good at shooting. With bows being move-and-fire, and your army sounding mostly like infantry, the archers could creep-retreat 5" and still fire at you, whittling away your guys. That, and it sounds like the Elf player did target-priority. He shot up your fast-moving-anti-archer units quick-quick, limiting your mobility. Then moved onto your slower infantry where he could just take his time. And, once your infantry was reduced to 1/2 strength, he didn't bother shooting at it anymore.

Did you have a wizard in your army? Maybe try one of the lores that has a lot of unit-movement spells so you can get into melee quicker.

Spellbound - can you tell us what the lists were that you and your opponent used?

Also - re: White Lion chariot - never attack it straight-on with a single Hero - S6 attacks are nothing to scoff at. They're meant to take down bigger stuff. Plus, they're 140 points. It's not like the HE player didn't pay for the combat abilities.

Again, if HE archers managed to beat you in CC by one, I would mostly attribute that to bad rolling. They're 11 points a piece with no armor and 1 S3, WS4. Even with ASF, they're nothing special in combat.

Most armies are ld 8. Only elves and dwarfs have ld 10 generals and most elves take the archmage general for ld 9 or the dragon general for ld who cares.

10 archers shooting at horsemen score 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, and you should have a 5+ save (mounted/light armor). With a rerollable panic check you should be fine.

Chaos have 3-4 ward save items (regen is basically a ward save).

Your exaulted heroes are probabally dying because you are sending them out to die. Its hard as hell to kill one in a unit with anything but a char killing char (killing blow or some such). A white lion mounted on a chariot should do .15 wounds to an exalted on a horse.
You got unlucky. Try some more games and then complain.

Wow, fighting infantry let you down. What a shock.

Look, if your battle plan is "walk across the board suffering their shooting then charge and pray they don't flee/flank", it's no surprise you lose. It's also not your army's fault.

Don't use fighting infantry aggressively. At best, they can take enemy charges and flee/flank. Instead use aggressive units, like knights/chariot/monsters, to get across the board and be charging on rounds 2/3. With chaos characters in them you should be able to beat anything you hit, and with high mobilty you should be able to set it up so that the countercharge hits your front.

The white lions in the chariot are only strength 5, not 6...The chance of them killing a chaos exalted hero with a 1+ save is about 1%. (1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 fail save twice).

Marauder Cav should have a 5+ save, be immune to panic, and shouldn't be being shot at before they can can shoot.

Frenzy on demand knights are great and can take a ranked unit from the front easily.

What are frenzy on demand knights?

Chaos warriors sucking vs elves? Gosh, I never would have thought that.

Seriously, the warriors are pretty meh against many armies as they can be avoided easily and picked apart by shooting/magic. And if they happen to get to combat they lack the juicy special rules to hold up reliably. That's not to say I don't wield them myself from time to time for random fun games and because the models are cool.

Regarding the charge you had some bad luck there with the character dying to 2 str 5 melee hits, but tbh without flail, destroying the chariot wasn't exactly a surefire chance either.

@Skyth - ah yes, that's right. My Bad.

@spellbound. I think it's not the army that is weak, but your tactics. seriously, use knights. they are high weapon skill, high toughness, get two attacks each and have a 1+ armour save. you COMBO charge them with anything else and you win, as long as you're not stupid enough to charge them into sword masters, and even then you should come off fine. Your characters should ALWAYS be in units and should NEVER charge ANYTHING on their own. these really are basic principals.

I don't know what else to say.

Grab some Knights, they can easily wreck the front of a unit if they get the charge off.

I don't know what to say about warriors, but your friend must roll unusually high to be able to kill those warriors.

Marauders make cheap meat shields if you really want some.

Have any wizards?

Characters charging units, I'm experienced enough to avoid doing. Though sometimes a hero with the Aether sword charges knight units and comes out ahead, provided there's no BSB.

But a chariot I figure is fairly safe, particularly one of low toughness and armour save. I mean hell, I see it all the time. Basic elf with lance charges chariot, kills it after a couple rounds, even if he's not equipped with the S7 lance of doom.

As far as knights go, I must just live in a different world from the rest of you. I take units of 6 or 7 and have them bounce off basic infantry. 14 attacks, 9 hit, 7 wound, three 6+ saves passed. 7 horses, 4 hit, 2 wound, 1 save. Enemy has 2 ranks, banner, numbers. I have 5 wounds and a banner. I win by 1, the enemy holds because their general is Ld 10, and that's just basic WS3, T3 infantry with light armour and shields. The idea that 5 can charge the front and win combat baffles me, especially after they take one or two casualties [which is the reason I take 7, usually].

But I'm going to give knights another try. Who knows, maybe a warshrine buff to be S6 would help. A consistent problem I have with my units is my enemies getting lucky and passing a ridiculous amount of saves, which draws combat or makes me lose. I remember once doing 8 wounds to a unit of stormvermin with my 2x hw chaos warriors. 5 passed their 6+ save and, since I was using 2x hw, they proceeded to cut me apart with their halberds. Add in the rank difference and their numbers with the casualties they did and I lost that combat by like 5.

I do have wizards, but they get very expensive quickly, and have only a 4+ save. I have one mounted sorceror model, though I like giving sorcerors the Bloodskull pendant, so he tends to not get used.

If you get 7 wounds, only 1.165 wounds will save on average. You win by 2 or 3 on average, and they run 50% of the time, on average. God help them if you get a little lucky. God help you if they get lucky.

Always give Warriors Shields.

Always worth it. A 2+ save is nothing to sneeze at, especially for Core Troops.

Don't forget that Chaos can re-roll failed Panic Tests.

Cryonicleech wrote:Don't forget that Chaos can re-roll failed Break Tests.

Not sure who you're playing, but sounds like they're cheating. Chaos gets to re-roll failed panic tests, not Break.