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Oh, Panic.

Always getting that mixed up.

IMO Chaos is not weak at all... I didnt read the whole thread but I read alot of your thoughts on why there weak and some of it makes no sense to me...

WoC has extremely nice survivablity... take a lord on jugger for instance... you can easily get his save to like 0 or even -1... Knights get a 1+ in cc do they not? Normal warriors get a 2+... oh and take a warshrine and it could go even lower! Theres also a chance of 4+ ward from the shrine. And you could always give your hero choice the crown that gives regen. Theres more then 1 ward save you can get for hero choices thats for sure...

WoC can also hit REALLY hard. You might rarely get to outnumber someone, but when core choices have a 2+ in cc... and they can take out quite a bit if you equip them right, its not a huge worry! I dont understand how you could say that the army is weak!

I've got your answer right here.

Tonight I played against DE with my chaos.

Sigvald the Magnificent was in a unit that received the 4+ ward save and stubborn buff from a warshrine.

An assassin with the venom sword did three wounds to me. TWO got through. They were only S4 hits.

That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

THAT is why I think chaos is weak. Tonight sealed the deal. I'm just too unlucky to play an army that pays lots of points for "good" armour saves that I can't ever make. My guys die to the most pathetic attempts to attack them. My daemon prince [tried one out for the first time, Tzeentch] got 1, 2, 3, and 5 for spells [the worst ones, aside from Pandaemonium]. He got hit by Chill Wind from a DE sorceress. d6 S4 hits right? He took 2 wounds, and was halfway dead. He was soon finished off by another chill wind spell.

And that's it for me. Vampire Counts ho!

Wow... really? So because you rolled bad for armour saves the army is bad? I mean come on... I understand frustration and dislike of the army, but saying a 2+ armour save, 4+ ward and regen is bad? Seriously I dont know what to tell you... Its seems more like bad luck to me and not the army but if in your opinion is a *bad army* then I respect your opinion and maybe you should try another army or just a different list.

Spellbound wrote:I've got your answer right here.

Tonight I played against DE with my chaos.

Sigvald the Magnificent was in a unit that received the 4+ ward save and stubborn buff from a warshrine.

An assassin with the venom sword did three wounds to me. TWO got through. They were only S4 hits.

That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

THAT is why I think chaos is weak. Tonight sealed the deal. I'm just too unlucky to play an army that pays lots of points for "good" armour saves that I can't ever make. My guys die to the most pathetic attempts to attack them. My daemon prince [tried one out for the first time, Tzeentch] got 1, 2, 3, and 5 for spells [the worst ones, aside from Pandaemonium]. He got hit by Chill Wind from a DE sorceress. d6 S4 hits right? He took 2 wounds, and was halfway dead. He was soon finished off by another chill wind spell.

And that's it for me. Vampire Counts ho!

So bad luck with your rolls makes an army weak?

Does other armies have something special blessing that doesnt fall under the same situation?

If you're gonna give them up. I've got a buddy who would be more than happy to buy them off you. :p. He's pretty lucky too. He might be able to be a little bit more successful with them.

This was just really icing on the cake. I consistently roll badly with them - that's what I've been complaining about.

Sure, they HAVE high toughness, they HAVE good saves - but I can't make them. For a player like me, I should pay fewer points for them, because I won't get out of them what I should. Unfortunately I can't just up and do that, and thus the army isn't suited to me - I pay lots of points for an army that doesn't deliver.

Sure, someone can use them effectively, I'm sure. You can see that in how well they did at the 'ard boyz semi-finals. Plenty of people came and did quite well with...the....oh, nobody placed using WoC. Ah well.

Dude, your army is not weak, from what I read, your DICE LUCK is!

Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Well you can always go back to your VC.

Jin wrote:Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Question is, does he ALWAYS do that?

Poor sigvald hasn't lived through a round of combat in months. I'm lucky I get to attack at all. Usually something ASF and higher initiative kills him.

If bad rolls are your problem, you shouldn't play VCs.

Just imagine how many summonings you'll fail.

assuming the ranked infantry is 5x3 (because you said it had two ranks) you should have numbers after killing 4 of them. last I checked US 12-14 > US 11. Can't Chaos knights cause fear?

Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Jin wrote:Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Seconded. The game is about trying to turn the odds in your favor, sadly you just sound crazy personifying your luck and saying it only manifests negatively when you play a certain WFB army.

You don't like WoC. That's fine, but if you don't like the heat stay out of he goddam fire. Play your VC, maybe that intangible concept of luck will be happier with you playing them and bless you with not always crummy die rolls. The game s supposed to be fun, have fun. You think the army you play affects your die rolls? It would seem the only way you have fun by winning, go play VC, ezmode it and win some games. Over and out.

Spellbound wrote:

Jin wrote:Yeah...definitely bad dice-rolling.

Let's put it this way. I once ran a HE Prince on Star Dragon with a 2+ rerollable AS & 4+ Ward Save and failed about 7 out of 8 saves and subsequently had the Dragon crying over his master. Surely you can't attribute that to the unit sucking. Just because my relationship with fortune is not so stellar doesn't mean this guy should cost any less than the 600 points he does.

Question is, does he ALWAYS do that?

Poor sigvald hasn't lived through a round of combat in months. I'm lucky I get to attack at all. Usually something ASF and higher initiative kills him.

Names are important, really they are
With a good name, that exalted is a star
Call him Korhgragaskangar The Eversaving
And you can quit your sorrow'd raving

Spellbound wrote:That's right - two failed 2+ armour saves, two failed 4+ ward saves, and two failed 4+ regeneration saves. Then, of course, I failed the toughness test on 2d6 and Sigvald died.

You just need new dice, dude. The odds of that many fails in a row is roughly 1 in 600, assuming your dice are perfectly average.

From reading this thread, I would say the problem is that your dice have actually been loaded to roll low. Either that or your opponent weighted his dice to roll high...

Don't charge the front of fully ranked troops with any knight unit. Sure chaos has the math behind to it to actually have a chance of running them down, but the odds aren't that good to do it on a regular basis. Use your knights to flank, or charge small or ranged units like every other knight does.

Since you don't need much to win when you flank, don't take any expensive options or extra bodies. Keep them cheap as you can, chaos knights are already expensive as it is without adding costly upgrades. That being said I do like mark of nurgle.

If your marauders and horsemen are getting shot up, do a staggered line formation like this


................12 Warriors..................12 Warriors..............12 Warriors...............


Marauders................................Chosen knights.............................Marauders..


The way this works is the idea that your warriors with their 2+ save are screening your more fragile marauders and knights who are standing in the rear out of line of sight. You will leave a gap between your warriors wide enough for whatever units you have in the rear line to charge enemies in the flank or perhaps charge units on their own, This will allow you to survive shooting attacks for the first 2 turns or so, because Str 3 bows won't effect your 2+ save and Bolt throwers ignore armour any way so its better for them to hit higher toughness warriors than the more fragile marauders.(naturally if hills are involved the situation changes) This is mostly for shooting attacks that won't degrade your save, IE handguns and cannons call for a different formation, Bows which is all HE and WE have, kill you by making you take lots of saves not by denying you them.

P1NK3Y3 wrote:

Jin wrote:Seriously, if you're failing 2+'s, it is NOT attributable to the book. But, suit yourself.

Seconded. The game is about trying to turn the odds in your favor, sadly you just sound crazy personifying your luck and saying it only manifests negatively when you play a certain WFB army.

It's more along the lines that if I'm rolling 1's and 2's for saves for skeletons, or zombies [which have none to bother rolling], I'm losing cheap models I can just bring back.

Do the same thing for a 21 point chosen with greatweapon and shield and he's gone forever.

I think we've beat this to death though, like Sigvald was by his S4 assailant.

.....REALLY? 2+ 4+ 4+, twice? REALLY?

That's the price you pay to play WoC. You need to make up for the lack of reuseable expendable troops via skill. You fail the save it's purely odds. Not the army book sucking You keep failing the same armor saves, it's just bad luck. That's all.

Just because you're removing those die rolls from armor saves, doesn't mean those 1's and 2's aren't going to manifest for to hit rolls, spells etc.

Long story short, play it how you will, what you want is an army that is very forgiving. So play your VC be done with it.

It could be that you tried to cook your dice the wrong way.

Stop rolling your command dice to make saving throws

You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

Da Boss wrote:You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

Awwww I play O&G AND WoC... But I have fun losing with my O&G cause I fail tha much... Im pretty sure EVERY SINGLE game I played with my O&G... Ive gotten massacred haha... but its so much fun!

Da Boss wrote:You want an army that fails to dice rolls?
Pick up O&G. WoC got nothing on that stuff.

But when you play O&Gs you have a completely different mindset. Losing isn't really a disappointment because you expect to lose and winning is an unexpected treat. WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

avantgarde wrote:WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

Amen to that. Nothing beats taking a solid group of elite warriors led by the most terrifying combat monsters in the warhammer universe and being beat by a smaller group of S3 T3 shmucks with a magic knife and half the rulebook's worth of special rules.

Spellbound wrote:

avantgarde wrote:WoC players are in that special place where they have the tools, except the tools are poorly constructed, which gives them false hope so constant defeat is more soul crushing.

Amen to that. Nothing beats taking a solid group of elite warriors led by the most terrifying combat monsters in the warhammer universe and being beat by a smaller group of S3 T3 shmucks with a magic knife and half the rulebook's worth of special rules.

Again... how is that poorly constructed? Thats unlucky dice rolls... Im sorry if core with a 2+ save in CC and 2 attacks each isnt enough for you... stop blaming it on the army because you get unlucky <.<

ugh. Missing the point. Point is, they cost too much for how little they get. Sure they have good stats, but NO way to get re-rolls for anything is crippling. No hatred, no healing.

Though I have been looking at the list with a very narrow mind. I generally go all Slaanesh, as that's what I've always done. Looking at the entire list there IS the nurgle spell that grants regeneration. Still, that's one spell you may not get and can be dispelled. Then there's Festus, but he doesn't make sense in a god-themed army. They've basically taken the god-themes out and encouraged the multi-god list, which I've never been a fan of. The real power is in multi-tasking I suppose. Still, no offensive re-rolls can be a pain.

The army requires superior tactics to make up for....I don't know, really. It isn't lack of fighting ability, but apparently it's lack of taking advantage of the game's rules. Most other armies can get cheap +3 ranks, cheap outnumber, cheap banner, same cost war banner, cheap additional +1. A unit of 12 chaos warriors has its expensive +1 rank, relatively expensive banner, and same cost war banner with no additional +1. A score of 7 to 3 that the chaos warriors have to make up with using dice rolls and not losing any of their number. You can say that the elite combat monsters, feared across the warhammer world can't go in unsupported and expect to win but....doesn't that not make any sense at all? Man, that unit of animated bones with a naked sorcerer vampire can take it on the chin and come out victorious, but those elite hardened harbingers of death need some support or they're goners!

Something has gone wrong here.

edit: Took a look at the FAQ for chaos. So Daemon princes are daemons for things that hurt them like Lord Kroak's spell and Engines of the Gods, as well as Lore of Light spells, but they don't have magical attacks. All the drawbacks, none of the bonuses. Nice! Gotta love it.

Spellbound wrote:The army requires superior tactics to make up for....I don't know, really. It isn't lack of fighting ability, but apparently it's lack of taking advantage of the game's rules. Most other armies can get cheap +3 ranks, cheap outnumber, cheap banner, same cost war banner, cheap additional +1. A unit of 12 chaos warriors has its expensive +1 rank, relatively expensive banner, and same cost war banner with no additional +1. A score of 7 to 3 that the chaos warriors have to make up with using dice rolls and not losing any of their number. You can say that the elite combat monsters, feared across the warhammer world can't go in unsupported and expect to win but....doesn't that not make any sense at all? Man, that unit of animated bones with a naked sorcerer vampire can take it on the chin and come out victorious, but those elite hardened harbingers of death need some support or they're goners!

Something has gone wrong here.

edit: Took a look at the FAQ for chaos. So Daemon princes are daemons for things that hurt them like Lord Kroak's spell and Engines of the Gods, as well as Lore of Light spells, but they don't have magical attacks. All the drawbacks, none of the bonuses. Nice! Gotta love it.

Yes, my observant friend. Warriors and Daemon Princes are not that good especially if you try to gear the latter towards melee combat instead of magic.
I wish GW would make all elite infantry playable or more useful but such is not the case. You're wrong that chaos can't get cheap reliable ranks, though, as you can get slaneesh marauders which are pretty decent, so how about using them and using couple units of knights as the real hammer/anvil-units.