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Hmm, I know. Bit roasty toasty already, but bare with me.

As someone who considers himself pretty much atheist, I struggle to understand the point of Religion in the modern world. I get why people have Faith etc, but the organised, 'you are scum unless you do this that and the other' side of things confuses the hell out of me.

So, why do you follow the Religion you have chosen? Was there even a choice, or is it something your parents (trying to think of a neutral way to put this, so as not to stack things unfairly in the opening post) brought you up with (there, think I succeeded).

Have you ever considered other Religions? How do you regard other Religions? How do you regard other denominations, and have you ever considered converting to them? If so, why, or indeed why not? How much does your Religion genuinely affect your day to day life? Is it something you follow as much as you can, or more a 'handy when I need to make a difficult decision' type of thing?

Not looking to deride anyones beliefs, just explore your reasoning and motivations (hmm. Sorry about 'motivations' bit of a strong word, as it suggests an ulterior motive, but I just can't think of a better term right now, so please read it as a neutral word).

So, off you go. Please don't try to convert me, just see if you can help me understand!

I just posted this in the "Man, I hope he gets a boatload of cash from this..." thread:

tblock1984 wrote:I am a student of all religions, disciple of none.

I do fancy Odin (patron deity of Yule), but I don't worship him. Same with Christ and Hubbard's ideas.
I think they have very cool ideas that I keep in my philosophy, but that is all. Duality, the Life Wheel, dianetics and "do unto others" is good stuff.

I just don't like to be tied down by outdated rhetoric that is becoming more unattached from modern day life. Or contradictions in said rhetoric that are dismissed (or gasp! covered up.. *Cough* Oath of Vengeance *Cough*) to compensate for modern day life.
Just an personal opinion. I try to keep an open mind and play devil's advocate for all faiths. Sorry if I offend.

As a child, I was raised Mormon. At 16, I said WTF? Now, I am Neo-Pagan-Druid-Shaman-Buddhist with a dash of Scientology.

When you understand why you dismiss all other gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

- Stephen Roberts

I was raised as a Rissho Kosei Kai Buddhist from my mom but in preschool I was sent to a Christian school. Then became a Christian during my teens in order to stop going to the frequent Buddhist meetings my mom dragged me along. To this day I still partake in some Buddhist activities just to make my mom happy.

After reading up on cultural anthropology and how basically nearly all human societies came up with religions for basically the same reasons (explain the unknown, control people, give people comfort, etc)....I later became agnostic. I also readily despise the obvious bias towards powerful men in much religious doctrines or when religion is used to prevent equality (gay rights).

There's no real evidence or compelling reason for me to devote my money and time towards organized religions and imo its very outdated especially when used to curtail scientific advancements or to belittle others. I also have enough labels to worry about rather than putting myself in another "Us versus Them" context that organized religions are based on.

I am a Asator and not really a "real" one I just think that since its not Christainity now, I know what your thinking no as a metal head I am not a Satanist in fact I view Satanism as a product of Christainity so I chose something unrelated to either!

Praise the Allfather!

It annoys the h ll out of atheists...duh!

Most people don't choose their religion, they are raised in the faith of their fathers whatever that may be, and either cleave to it or cleave from it when they reach maturity.

Others do convert, e.g. Malcolm X, Cat Stevens and Henry Winter (with whom I was at school.) These are probably the more spiritually minded people, see my next point:

Religion IMO arises from the various faculties of the human mind for abstract thought, curiousity, and related propensities which combine to create intelligence. Some people have a bit more of the spiritual component, and others have more of the concrete component.

I would disagree that religion or any other 'thing' needs to have a purpose to exist in the modern world. Surely if we believe in human progress, we aim to arrive at a situation like "The Dancers At The End Of Time" in which everyone can choose freely what they want to do.

All major religions promote what I might loosely call 'positive values' even if mixed with other attributes. I mean things like being kind and good, to generalise. These are also values which are promoted in humanism, chivalry, and 'socialism'.

Finally, while I am a confirmed C of E member, I am far from religious, my wife is Buddhist/Shinto, and neither of us are practising in our religions. Yet we both have a sense of good and bad (worthy and sinful) behaviour which I think is generally in line with socially accepted norms, and our daughter is a good, kind, well-behaved girl (so far...)

You have a daughter? You are so doomed.

It just makes me feel good, sure the catholics have tortured people and led some crusades, but I still like being catholic. I like the symbolism, the saints, jesus, god, they just give me some good examples for my life and gives me hope for the world.

Frazzled wrote:You have a daughter? You are so doomed.

Yes I know, she's already becoming a Loli and I'm scared.

Kind of. But once upon a time, Religion was used to educate the masses, or at the very least explain the inexplicable (like bad harvest, infant mortality etc), as well as to provide a mutually beneficial moral compass for the community.

But now, we know why most things happen, and that being a knob to your neighbour just isn't cricket (as well as having a relatively universal definition of what being a knob to your neighbour entails). So my point of view is that Religion is less required these days, certainly in it's traditional role.

Also, not looking for anyone to excuse or apologise for action their Church of choice made in the past. That's largely got nothing to do with anyone still living, so there is no need for the guilt complex.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You have a daughter? You are so doomed.

Yes I know, she's already becoming a Loli and I'm scared.

You got me there-Loli?

Tell that to all the illiterate, anti-social chavs.

That's less to do with anything Religious, and more to do with the Police being relatively powerless. Nowt wrong with the average a Chav a good solid 80's style Police kicking couldn't sort out.

What are you people on about?

Religeon...hmmm. This could get real ugly real fast.

Religeon may quite simply be another form of expressing oneself. Some are charitable and help the sick and poor, others are TFG who rattle on about 'cleasing the heretic/infidel/unbeliever'. While these people reflect badly on thier religeon, it mostly stems from them, and not the religeon itself.

Chavs are scum alright. The occasionally pop up in Amsterdam for some reason. Shocked I was, people actually dressing like that.

Back on topic religion is there for people, for them to cling on to, for hope and all that other stuff.

Community.

Not that you need religion for that.

I am an atheist working in a Catholic school. Personally, I see no benefits that religion brings that could not arise anyway. In fact, some of the senior people in the school are more interested in the outward forms of their religion than they are in actual charitable behaviour towards their fellow man.

I'm like MGS in this.

I was baptised CofE purely at the behest of my maternal grandmother. My father had no desire to impose religious values upon me (although he himself was raised Catholic). I was not raised in the faith at all. My father believed if I wanted to become religious, then when I was old enough, it would be my choice.

I do not practice any faith. I do not worship, and cannot understand WHY other people do. I am aware some people fear the unknown and seek answers that way. I don't fear the unknown - if I don't know what it is, how can I be afraid of it?

This guy was somewhat of a hero for me:



Youtube 'George Carlin religion' and you'll find his standup dealing with this very topic. Praying to Joe Pesci ftw.

My God laughs at your God. For he knows the secret of steel.

So people can say "We're better than you Prbprbprbbbttt!!!"

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:As someone who considers himself pretty much atheist, I struggle to understand the point of Religion in the modern world. I get why people have Faith etc, but the organised, 'you are scum unless you do this that and the other' side of things confuses the hell out of me.

To honestly answer you, I'll have to make sure we're on the same page. When I use the term "religion" I refer to my personal beliefs. I strongly believe that everyone has their own mind and own way of thinking of things, so no matter how big a group of people is, nobody within them believes everything the same to the exact detail or in the same way. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable So as far as the more abrasive side, the one that tells you that you are anything less than perfect, I believe I am less than perfect "fallen" if you will) but that doesn't mean someone gets to lord that over me playing the religious ho to their pimp.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So, why do you follow the Religion you have chosen? Was there even a choice, or is it something your parents (trying to think of a neutral way to put this, so as not to stack things unfairly in the opening post) brought you up with (there, think I succeeded).

I chose the religion (as defined above) by weighing out what worked and what didn't. I'd be lying if I said my upbringing didn't factor in (parents were both ministers, Christian private schooling). I'd also be lying if I said I didn't try as hard as possible to make anything else really work. Some ways I've lived my life were fun for a while but would just lead to me being depressed (both emotionally upset and medically depressed moreso). My next default if for some reason I stopped believing what I currently believe is Objectivism taken to the extreme. While more of a philosophy, it left me very satisfied in ways that I wasn't before.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Have you ever considered other Religions? How do you regard other Religions? How do you regard other denominations, and have you ever considered converting to them? If so, why, or indeed why not? How much does your Religion genuinely affect your day to day life? Is it something you follow as much as you can, or more a 'handy when I need to make a difficult decision' type of thing?

Yes, extensively. I was raised thinking that all Catholics were crazy-bad, baptists were bland and uncaring ritual followers, etc. I now see that everyone has their own personality and some people fit in better certain places. Minor differences don't bug me, and major difference bug me a whole lot less. It affects my day to day life in the sense that I have someone to talk to help make the tough decisions, someone to draw power from and it's where I draw the majority of my inner peace. I'm ridiculously analytical, and can deal with irrational fears and the like. The real fears (things like finances) are the ones I need that extra bit of peace to be able to deal with comfortably. I follow what I believe, but I don't subscribe to mainstream Christianity. I follow it as a personal relationship with God. I believe the Bible, but I also believe somethings could have been left out or altered based on who was translating at the time. I also use trial and error and personal experience to balance out what i believe in. It was not that long ago that I finally got peace about accepting homosexuality as a real life that people lead (it takes a lot to break through the programming). That's not to say I outright hate anyone (kinda defeats the purpose) or believe everyone should think exactly what I think (Holy Roman Empire much?), nor should law enforce anything but continued freedom (I'd rather someone choose what they want to believe as their choice, not as someone forcing them).

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not looking to deride anyones beliefs, just explore your reasoning and motivations (hmm. Sorry about 'motivations' bit of a strong word, as it suggests an ulterior motive, but I just can't think of a better term right now, so please read it as a neutral word).

My reasoning and motivations are based mostly on personal experience, with much (not all) of what I was taught growing showing itself to be true throughout my life. Sort of a keep the good, discard the bad I guess. I draw a lot of personal strength form my beliefs and relationship with God, and anytime I ever bring it up with people is because it is a fitting moment, not to try and force it. I know what helps me lead a much happier and better life, and I know I can help other people do the same, even if it means they don't "convert" to what I believe (that would hardly be a "personal" relationship). A good example is my girlfriend who wasn't a "Christian" but has started praying recently and loves it. Will she ever be a "Christian?" I don't know nor do I care. Is she happier now that she's started praying? A hell of a lot more. She talks about it a lot and thanks me for not pressuring her into it, for letting her find it for herself. I'm hesitant to attend church to be honest, but I'd like a small group of similar-minded people to bounce my beliefs off of to keep me thinking and questioning myself.

I hope that helps you understand and answers your questions adequately Ask me if you have any more.

Kilkrazy wrote: Yet we both have a sense of good and bad (worthy and sinful) behaviour which I think is generally in line with socially accepted norms, and our daughter is a good, kind, well-behaved girl (so far...)

QFT

Frazzled wrote:What are you people on about?

Loli = Lolita

Thanks Dogma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khornholio wrote:My God laughs at your God. For he knows the secret of steel.

My God breaks wind in your God's direction. He knows the secret of carbon fibers.

I have spiritual beliefs not really in any organsied form. I think however that without them, I would be a bastard, not because of fear of punishment, but becasue I wouldn't feel the same level of contentment and therfore take my frustration out on others..

Well, I think religion still answers questions that science can't. The purpose of man, the nature of morality, even things like the soul/body question and life after death. That's heavy stuff, and science is even more confused now than they were 500 years ago about that stuff.

For me, religion provided me with a way to think about spirituality, and to learn how to relate to the divine. I'm pretty sure there are studies about religious people being happier and more fulfilled.

Essentially, it helps a person relate to the world.

The spiritual element is something I forgot to mention. I believe I have a grasp on the way things work spiritually and consequently am able to influence them. Without beliefs, I wouldn't know anytihng about that.

@everyone, in response to the death of the "Man, I hope he gets a boatload of cash from this..." thread:

Dig what you dig... But let other people do the same, too...
That is something I strongly believe in.

That is all...

From the other thread:

Dogma wrote:

Fifty wrote: The 'Theism' part of 'Atheism' refers more to a belief in that which is beyond rational explanation. Thus, atheism generally refers not only to belief in there being no God, but also a belief in there being no gods/divine universe.

That's incorrect. Theism is a very specific term which refers to the belief in God/god/s. Atheism is the lack of such a belief, and makes no further comment on one's faith in any other supernatural concepts.

Referring to oneself as an atheist while lacking any belief in the supernatural is simply an incomplete description.

No, it is not inaccurate at all. Literature on the roots of atheism, before it was even called such, discuss both what it does not and does not believe in. Atheism was a term coined for a set of ideas that had been established before the term itself. That one of the main focuses of this set of ideas was disbelief in god[s] led to the name focusing on that.

You are focusing on the semantic roots of a word rather than the ideological roots of a system of thought and ideas. Perhaps even a philosophy.

As I said elsewhere, Atheism is better defined by what it does than what it doesn't.

To be honest, because of situations exactly like this one, I do not like the term "Atheism". It is such a negative term and defines me what I am not intead of what I am.

I AM a logical person who values logical thinking, evidential-based enquiry and rational debate. I am NOT a person who believes in dogma, acceptance and faith in the supernatural.

You may also notice, from the way I phrase many things, that I do not even like the term "belief/believe", as it carries too many implications of a faith position rather than a logic position.