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Hey guys. Im starting an iron hands army, and im getting some CC terminators. My plan for my 1500 point force is to get a LR redeemer and slap my termies, led by a termie captain w/ TH in it. Now i dont know what i should do with my terminators. I was originally planning on 3 LC's and 2 TH's, but people really seem to like TH's now. What configuration would you guys go for?

There's a lot of good reasons to mix in a LC Termie or two, but I stick with all TH/SS. One thing I could recommend is giving the Captain a Relic Blade and Storm Shield instead of Thunderhammer. He'll get to take advantage of his higher initative, still be Str 6, and 3++. Round him out with Melta Bombs (for that odd vehicle if he gets separated) and Digital Weapons (for anything T6+ like a TMC) and stick him with 5 TH/SS Terminators for some serious death-in-a-basket.

I use Marneus Calgar sometimes with my TH/SS termies, and about half the time I use his Powersword instead of the Fists, just so I can strike first and take out some enemies before they swing. He's rediculously priced, but the Captain above can do pretty much the same job.

I personally like more LC guys then TH/SS guys. They LC guys get their attacks of while the TH/SS guys absorb high damage fire/pick at vehicles if need be

Iron Warriors as in chaos termies?

Well, since Chaos can't have thunder hammers or redeemers, I say go with the lightning claws and a standard LR.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Iron Warriors as in chaos termies?

Well, since Chaos can't have thunder hammers or redeemers, I say go with the lightning claws and a standard LR.

HE either meant, Iron Hands/fists or that he is using the SM codex for his Iron Warriors?

If you're using the Marines codex for IW ( :/ ) and ignoring fluff problems like them not having TH/SS, go for TH/SS in a Crusader.

Haha sorry guys. I meant an IRON HANDS army. Thats like the billionth time ive done that. Ive seriously gotta stop that, because that could get me in trouble.

Three TH/SS, two twin LC seems like a good configuration to me. If you're really facing tons of AP 1/2 or lots and lots of power weapons, consider adding more TH/SS, but the LC really does help if you can get away with it.

Just wanted to add - a Chaplain makes this unit SO much better, even better than a CC Captain. He's not as fast or as tough, but he's not bad, and he's a force multiplier for this unit's intended role - charging.

I have this unit to ward off Nob Bikers and Tyranid monsterous creatures and whatnot, so I always want to max out on Str 8 wounds. The Chaplain really helps get the job done. I can't tell you how many times I've rolled 15 attacks and hit with 3-4... but that's dice. The Chaplain grants that oh-so important re-roll to hit. Over on the other side of the table, 5 LC Terminators would disembark for a total 20 powerweapon attacks that are re-rolled to hit AND to wound. Never tried it, but that sounds like a real horde thresher, and easily able to wipe out a squad of marines (or plague marines!) on the charge.

Hybrid configurations are just up to personal taste. If you take one TH/SS, you can put that stray plasma shot on him for the 3++ save, and have a little vehicle insurance. If you toss in one LC, you get an "initiative kicker" -- and a chance to put a few enemies down before they swing. 2/3 combinations either way seem a bit unfocused to me, but as always, your mileage will vary.

I'm a believer in the 40%-60% rule for close combat terminators. About 40% of the squad should be lightning claws and 60% should be thunder hammer/storm shield. In a 5 man squad, I would go 2 LC and 3 TH. That would give you 8 ST4, I4 powerweapon attacks and 9 ST8, I1 thunder hammer attacks on the charge. The LCs swinging first reduces the chances of lesser units (i.e. gaunts, guardsmen, orcs) from swamping you with attacks and lets your thunder hammers survive longer to dish out the pain.

Quick math hammer example: 6 Terminators (2LC, 4 TH) versus 20 boyz with powerklaw nob

2 LCs swing (8 attacks, 5.36 hits, 4.02 wounds, ~4 dead boyz)
15 boyz swing (30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 0.8 dead terminator)
4 THs swing (12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead boyz)
Nob swings (3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.41 dead terminator)

Orcs lose 9, Terminators (worst case) lose 2, Orcs take 7 no retreat wounds and lose another 6 boyz bringing the mob down to 4 plus nob

Altnerately, pure TH (6 Terminators vs 20 boyz with powerklaw nob)

19 boyz swing (38 attacks, 19 hits, 6.27 wounds, 1.0032 dead terminators)
5 Terminators swing (15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.225 dead boyz)
Nob swings (3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.41 dead terminator)

Orcs lose 6, Terminaotrs (worst case) lose 2, Orcs take 4 no retreat wounds and lose another 4 boyz bringing the mob down to 9 plus nob

The difference is a staggering 5 extra dead orcs, with about the same risk to your Terminators.

Agreed with 2x claws, 3x hammers. Enough 3++ to pile low ap onto them, and you get the joys of thinning the enemy out before/while they strike instead of standing there, taking a beating, and then being left with the same 3 hammers to hit back. (loosing the other 1-2 models' attacks)

Take Cassius he fits the theme of being all bionic out and stuff plus Chaplain T6 reroll attacks.

Just a great addition for the price.

Chaplains ALWAYS make units that much better. I think Chaplains as a hole, are just A-holes lol
All you hear is "PRAISE THE EMPEROR!!" DEEAAAAATH!!!! DOOOOOOM people DIIIIIIEING!!!
God I wish priests today would be like them

Take all TH/SS, Its a realy good unit and who cares if your hitting at I1 when you got 15 Str hits and a 2+/3+ save!

Taking all TH/SS with no LC is advisable only if you expect to be fighting armies that will be striking at higher than I4 alot like eldar or d.eldar. Against MEQ and armies with I 4 or less, its often a good idea to take at least a single LC. The LC will allow you to strike first, and then allocate wounds to the LC models after they get to strike, making sure all your models get to hit in CC.

I have found in practice that at least a single LC is always a good idea, and if you don't see much eldar other I5+ units then 2 LC and 3 TH/SS is a great plan.

Unless you are playing salamanders of course.

TH's are useful against high Initiative armies (because they usually have low T) and vehicles. The ability to get a 'crew shaken' result every time you hit, AND double str up to 8+D6 gives you a much better chance at killing anything. So if you're fighting IG infantry army, it's pathetic. If you're playing against IG mech, take as many as you can carry.

Seriously take Cassius he is a fething beast.

Lord-Loss wrote:Take all TH/SS, Its a realy good unit and who cares if your hitting at I1 when you got 15 Str hits and a 2+/3+ save!

Well if you have 5 LC Termies attacking your 5 TH/SS Termies =

I4 20 re rolling LC attacks hit - average 1s and 2s rolled from 20 would be around 5 or 6 dead - you would never attack back. If going against Black Templars Termies or with a Chaplain that would be 20 re rolled to hit and wounds.

If you fight other really slow armies then TH/SS are ok, but that 3+ Inv is only in close combat and not from shooting.

Da-Rock wrote:
If you fight other really slow armies then TH/SS are ok, but that 3+ Inv is only in close combat and not from shooting.

Where does it say that? SS gives you 3++ against anything. Or rather, it doesnt say that the SS' inv save is only for CC.

Da-Rock wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Take all TH/SS, Its a realy good unit and who cares if your hitting at I1 when you got 15 Str hits and a 2+/3+ save!

Well if you have 5 LC Termies attacking your 5 TH/SS Termies =

I4 20 re rolling LC attacks hit - average 1s and 2s rolled from 20 would be around 5 or 6 dead - you would never attack back. If going against Black Templars Termies or with a Chaplain that would be 20 re rolled to hit and wounds.

If you fight other really slow armies then TH/SS are ok, but that 3+ Inv is only in close combat and not from shooting.

What?

I dont do Mathhammer, but about 8-10 of those LC attacks are gonna hit and wound them.

Then I got to take some 3+ saves and only about 3 dead.

Honestly if you take straight SS/TH you need to be hunting something with them, they need to go after high toughness low count things, carnifex's, wraithlords, some greater daemons. They are not eliete hand to hand troops, anything with a decent initiative and a lot of attacks will own them. I have seen both banshees and striking scorpions beat them in combat, even 1 lightning claw would help immesncely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have seen 5 orgyns beat them down effectivly.

doubled wrote:Honestly if you take straight SS/TH you need to be hunting something with them, they need to go after high toughness low count things, carnifex's, wraithlords, some greater daemons. They are not eliete hand to hand troops, anything with a decent initiative and a lot of attacks will own them. I have seen both banshees and striking scorpions beat them in combat, even 1 lightning claw would help immesncely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have seen 5 orgyns beat them down effectivly.

Those are some very luck Orgyn.

Lord-Loss wrote:

doubled wrote:Honestly if you take straight SS/TH you need to be hunting something with them, they need to go after high toughness low count things, carnifex's, wraithlords, some greater daemons. They are not eliete hand to hand troops, anything with a decent initiative and a lot of attacks will own them. I have seen both banshees and striking scorpions beat them in combat, even 1 lightning claw would help immesncely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have seen 5 orgyns beat them down effectivly.

Those are some very luck Orgyn.

No kidding. As long as we're posting like luck == tactics,

Premise: Firewarriors are bad at HtH.
Observance: I once saw a squad of firewarriors kill a DP in HtH.
Conclusion: Since Firewarriors can kill a DP in HtH, DPs are awful at HtH.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:

doubled wrote:Honestly if you take straight SS/TH you need to be hunting something with them, they need to go after high toughness low count things, carnifex's, wraithlords, some greater daemons. They are not eliete hand to hand troops, anything with a decent initiative and a lot of attacks will own them. I have seen both banshees and striking scorpions beat them in combat, even 1 lightning claw would help immesncely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have seen 5 orgyns beat them down effectivly.

Those are some very luck Orgyn.

No kidding. As long as we're posting like luck == tactics,

Premise: Firewarriors are bad at HtH.
Observance: I once saw a squad of firewarriors kill a DP in HtH.
Conclusion: Since Firewarriors can kill a DP in HtH, DPs are awful at HtH.

I saw a squad of gretchin pull down a wraith lord (yay grot prods). If they can kill a wraith lord they must be hardest close combat unit in 40k ¬_¬

Da-Rock wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Take all TH/SS, Its a realy good unit and who cares if your hitting at I1 when you got 15 Str hits and a 2+/3+ save!

Well if you have 5 LC Termies attacking your 5 TH/SS Termies =

I4 20 re rolling LC attacks hit - average 1s and 2s rolled from 20 would be around 5 or 6 dead - you would never attack back. If going against Black Templars Termies or with a Chaplain that would be 20 re rolled to hit and wounds.

If you fight other really slow armies then TH/SS are ok, but that 3+ Inv is only in close combat and not from shooting.

Off a little bit here. LCs swing first for 20 attacks, 10 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.475 failed saves so 2-3 TH terminators die before they swing. Assuming best case, they then respond with 3 guys swinging for 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.49 wounds, 1.64 failed saves. Basically trading 2-3 TH terminators for 1-2 LC terminators on the return swing.

Even if the TH guys charge...the LCs swing first for 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 5.62 wounds, 1.85 dead TH terminators. Best case, 4 still alive make 12 swings, 6 hit, 5 wound, 4.15 dead LCs. 1-2 dead TH terminators and you, most often, do not even destroy the LC squad in the same round of combat. A mixed squad would do better against both straight LC and straight TH/SS.

if you mix the squads, you gain the added bonus of durability from the stormshields, and the fact that you can choose to take the majority of saves, if facing another terminator unit, on your lightning claws. Say a unit of 5 terminators with 2x claws 3x hammers takes 8 wounds requiring invulnerable saves, from an I4 opponent.

the claws will get their swings in no matter what, so the best option would be to take 4 saves on the 2 claws, and 4 saves on the hammers. you will loose both claws, and likely 1 hammer... meaning you will get to swing with all except 1 terminator. If you had just hammer terminators, you would loose probably 3 terminators still, but of those 3, none would get to attack, and you would be far worse off as far as combat resolution and damage done goes.

Ogryns are actually a pretty decent match for TH termies. They a T5, so the TH's can't instantkill them, and they have a decent amount of high S attacks, letting them put a lot of wounds on the termies. (note: I do in no way condone use of ogryn in this use - or any other, but if somebody put a gun to my head and made me use a squad, I wouldn't hesitate too long about throwing them into a fight with TH termies)

All thunderhammer termiesquads are just silly, you are handicaping yourself against 95% of stuff the termies will fight

Magnetize the arms of the Terminators. SS/TH is good if you're against an opponent with lots of tough hard hitting units or vehicles. LC are good against hoard armies because you get more attacks. But, most of the time TH/SH will be the better one, magnetizing them so you at least have the option of switching is still a good idea though.

In my experiance a good mix is better than strait LC or TH/SH. and Magnetizing them is an awesome idea.

I'm a BIG fan of LC's. Its cheaper than TH/SS and more pewpewful. Oftentimes I find my 5 man Twin LC termis will kill TH/SS termis just from the shear amount of smackdown they do (because if you do 6-7 wounds with LC's your bound to kill at least 1-2 termis with them rolling marine invuns). Sure TH/SS survivability is high, but personally I don't dig em as much. Its good to mix a few into larger squads (to take the hits from lascannons and things), but I think a FULL squad of them is a waste.