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I have a friend who plays SM. He is a bit of a whiner by nature, but he seems to have a valid argument regarding the new codex. His point was that because they have made it so that the special characters are the ones who now bring special rules to a chapter, the vanilla marines have become the most boring army in 40K, as you can't really make your own unique chapter (at least not with special rules). This is compounded by the fact that many armies have been made a whole lot cooler, and better, with recent codexes and 5th Ed., leaving the army he invested in a little sucky, in his mind. Any thoughts? I haven't examined any of the SM codexes closely, and he is a bit of an exaggerator, but I just wanted to see what others think.

I just realized this thread probably belongs elsewhere as it is, so lets hear some of the tactics and strategies people think about when they're building a SM army, and what their strenghts and weaknesses in ability and equipment are. Lets keep the talk of specific chapters pretty general, just comparing them to the VSM's. Like, "I thought of building a VSM army this way, but I might as well just use this chapter instead because it's better at that." And keep thoughts toward competitive lists not tailored to specific army types.

He won't get a lot of sympathy from the xeno players around here, but I can understand his feeling. There's nothing in the SM dex that makes me want to use it. I get the whole special character = different build thing, but I'd prefer other ways to get a different feel and build. I'm actually afraid they'll do the same thing to the Blood Angels dex when it comes out.

Seems a valid point to me, your cool if your the Ultramarines with Telion/Sicarus/Calgar/Chronus etc but it seems to me that your screwed with everyone else.

Maybe they will add some more game legal SC guys via WD or something? I mean, you really cant make up your own characters or it would descend into some sort of schoolyard battle "Sergeant Krilgor has 7 wounds and 18 attacks and costs 50 points!"

I definitely disagree. I play Space Marines and consider the 5th Edition Codex to one of the coolest/best Codices GW has ever written.

Could you elaborate? Why do you think it's one of the coolest/best? I like the style all the new codices and the way they refer to the USR's, but as for VSM's in particular?

The overall style of the Codex is a refreshing change after the terrible 4th Edition book. Combat Tactics is a great new mechanic that really opens new possibilities to the army. The new units are also interesting and cool, as are the characters, both generic and otherwise.

I personally like the new codex much better than the 4th Ed one that I started on. I can't speak to previous iterations, but this codex fixed a lot of good things for me, like the Storm Shield (I always wondered why it never worked against ranged attacks before), and the Cyclone/Typhoon Missle Launchers being upgraded to 2 shots. Unfortunately, the Dreadnought ML didn't. My Typhoons became as useful as they are cool-looking, and people finally stopped asking me why they weren't Tornados (AC/HB).

We got the Land Raider Redeemer and the Thunderfire Cannon over in Heavy Support, and both are incredibly useful in my opinion. Drop Pod options have become more robust, and realistic with the new plastic kit.

We got the Relic Blade, a Str 6 strike-at-initiative powerweapon. Slap that on your generic Captain and just see how cool it is.

Devestator Seargents got a signum, which a) makes that funny backpack mean something after all this time, and b) gives me a reason to keep the seargent around rather than tossing him at the first wound the squad takes.

Attack bikes actually got a little cheaper.

Librarians got some cool new powers; a teleport power, and AP3 flamer, and the ultimate demon-screwing power, Null Zone. That's probably still the best answer any army has to a JetSeer Council, too.

Now, the shift to SC-based armies is true, BUT, I think special characters actually got a slight buff in this addition, and several very cool characters were added in this edition, like Telion and Sicarious. These guys can be used in any non-UM army at any time by design. You just rename the guy, paint him different, and use him as Captain Mikarious of the Supermarines Chapter.

We also got Ironclad dreadnoughts, and vindicators got cheaper. Dakka preds got cheaper, but LasPreds got more expensive. Devestators are more expensive, but got the Signum and Combat Squads to make them more powerful.

Honor guard got a huge buff, and command squads can now be on bikes. The Apothecary rocks especially because he now grants FNP to the whole squad.

I'm sure there's more, but that's just what I can think of at the moment.

Space Marines isn't a flashy army, it's a versatile one. Tell your friend to stop his sniveling and do his duty for the Emperor and Mankind!

I agree, Codex SM is an awesome book, and I even say that in light of the new Space Wolves codex.

GW books are really meant to be played on the "whole" anyways these days. Use counts as and play any character you want. If you think of the book on those terms, you can carry the codex a long ways with various different builds. I play Salamanders but just this past Saturday I fielded a "count as" Kahn list, my "Kahn" was just a Captain who loves bikes.

My only problem with marines is that, when you compare them to a CSM it makes them look bad. Not having studied the codex can I ask, why don't SM get cc weapon, bolter and bolt pistol rather than one or the other, whereas CSM get all of them, giving them the extra attack in combat. SM and CSM same points. CSM get one more attack. Automatilcally better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I may have confused myself with the cc weapon bit what i meant to say was that marine players have to choose between them whereas Chaos space marine players get both

His point was that because they have made it so that the special characters are the ones who now bring special rules to a chapter, the vanilla marines have become the most boring army in 40K, as you can't really make your own unique chapter (at least not with special rules).

Huh? Vanilla marines without any special characters is still a very strong army. Thus, making up one's own chapter is very easy - just paint them.

If one insists on using special characters and wants to make their own chapter, write up your own fluff! In-game, say "This is commander krep, he uses the same rules for he'stan" or whatever.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:My only problem with marines is that, when you compare them to a CSM it makes them look bad. Not having studied the codex can I ask, why don't SM get cc weapon, bolter and bolt pistol rather than one or the other, whereas CSM get all of them, giving them the extra attack in combat. SM and CSM same points. CSM get one more attack. Automatilcally better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I may have confused myself with the cc weapon bit what i meant to say was that marine players have to choose between them whereas Chaos space marine players get both

Stop, and think.
SM have: 'and they shall know no fear', combat tactics and combat squads, and have 3 types of transports available!
CSM have none of those. -That is why they have an extra attack

ah didn't know that. As I said i haven't read the marines codex in depth. All i can remeber is that Captain Shrike is officailly my fav marine hero

Fair argument, but ive not found custom chapters boring to play against

HolyCause wrote:If one insists on using special characters and wants to make their own chapter, write up your own fluff! In-game, say "This is commander krep, he uses the same rules for he'stan" or whatever.

I think somewhere in the codex they actually recommended this...can't remember where though.

But I totally agree with the rest of the posters, Space Marines aren't all that boring, they have a wide range of options available to them, even with no special characters at all in your list, you still have lots of options, competitive options I might add.

Space Marine vehicles got a relative boost in offensive capability. With 5th Ed, Defensive Weapons on vehicles are Str4 or less, whereas in 4th Ed, it was Str 5 or less. Apart from the Dakka Predator, this helped out the other vehicles because we have Storm Bolters for our defense weapons. Tau transports used to eat us alive being able to move freely and crank out two heavy weapons worth of Str 5 fire... something like 9 or 10 shots with no disadvantages. They and Eldar gunboats came down in capability in 5th, so now the Rhino and Razorback look a lot better in comparison.



Oh, and they're about half the price now.

And Razorbacks now have MUCH better turret options (oh HF, TL-AC, LC/TL-PG where were you when I needed you?).

Sure, if you have to bring special characters to do SOME of the stuff in the SM book. However, there are a TON of units you can field with space marines. Even without special characters.

All bike list? Check!
6 Dreadnoughts? Check!
5 Landraiders? Check!
All drop pod? Check!
Rhino Rush? Check!

All 5 of thoses lists are totallty different play styles, yet you don't need a special character to do any of them.

Yes, if you want to get rid of combat tactics you'll need a special character, but seriously, even with the special characters you can run VERY different lists.

Your friend IMO is just being a whiner.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:My only problem with marines is that, when you compare them to a CSM it makes them look bad. Not having studied the codex can I ask, why don't SM get cc weapon, bolter and bolt pistol rather than one or the other, whereas CSM get all of them, giving them the extra attack in combat. SM and CSM same points. CSM get one more attack. Automatilcally better.

adielubbe wrote:

Stop, and think.
SM have: 'and they shall know no fear', combat tactics and combat squads, and have 3 types of transports available!
CSM have none of those. -That is why they have an extra attack

Hey OP, If your friend wants a boring army to play, play CSM. Writing up lists can be mind numbing, and a hell of a lot less fun than Marines. You get Landspeeders, you get Landraiders with 12-14 carrying capacity, damn attack bikes, you get DROP. PODS, you're dreadnoughts don't go crazy... As pointed out, CSM lose Combat tactics, combat squads and they shall know no fear, which are far more entertaining to play with that "I get +1 to X stat, and can guide teleporting units! Hoo-ray!" and an extra attack for 2 CC weaps.

I feel bad for calling my best buddy a whiner. It's more like a soldier's bitching. It's not that the SM don't have alot of things to choose from, it's that someone came a long and changed the rules on his 3000pt army that he collected and painted for 5+ years, so he's a little bitter, that's all (before we even played one 5th ed. game he almost refused to hand over any more money for new rules/codex, cursing GW and citing his 20y experience with their 'editions'. "They just want more money"). He'll get over it, this thread has been helpful so far. I guess the same thing has happened to all armies, with the characters providing different builds? That's what they've done to my guard, no more doctrines to mix up. That's the main thing i guess, the fact that you could choose from a bunch of upgrade rules, where now a handful of characters hold those rules.

So what are some of the current competitive VSM builds likely to feature, at the 1700-2000pts range? Full lists are helpful but not important.

And how do you VSM commanders handle the IG tanks now that they are so beefy? With the Master of Ordanance, 4 pieplates a round is not uncommon.

space marines are an underpowered army. don't anyone even try to argue that they aren't. you REALLY need to know exactly what your doing with them, or else you will loose. SM should be more forgiving of mistakes, but they aren't. The units are just so damn expensive points wise, one slip up and its not unusual to see a whole tac squad just gone in one round of shooting. Sure, you can tool marines to beat any army, but the same can be said for most armies. a solid, balanced, take all comers marines list will struggle against all opponents... you have to earn your wins.

Horst wrote:space marines are an underpowered army. don't anyone even try to argue that they aren't. you REALLY need to know exactly what your doing with them, or else you will loose. SM should be more forgiving of mistakes, but they aren't. The units are just so damn expensive points wise, one slip up and its not unusual to see a whole tac squad just gone in one round of shooting. Sure, you can tool marines to beat any army, but the same can be said for most armies. a solid, balanced, take all comers marines list will struggle against all opponents... you have to earn your wins.

Seriously? SM are one of the most forgiving armies to play because of their durability. T4, 3+ save, and ATSKNF makes for very resilient units that can survive being thrown into alot of bad spots. In tournaments, you need to be more careful not to expose key pieces too early where the enemy can isolate them and destroy your army piecemeal. But 10 marines in cover are incredibly difficult for almost anything to bring down with shooting.

Space Marines have a good codex with lots of nice units. What generic Marines lack is anything like duel Princes that people can call cheezy/broken. This is not a bad thing as it stops every Marine list being the same. Generic Marines are fun to play, but only rank as a second tier competitive army. What the Codex does have is Special Characters. These allow for some competitive builds.

Compared to Space Wolves and Chaos Marines normal Marines lack good Troop choices. What they do have are mostly Elite & Fast Attack.
* Elite - Dreads, Ironclads, Hammer-natos, Sternguard
* Fast - Trikes, Speeders.

murdog wrote:I have a friend who plays SM. He is a bit of a whiner by nature, but he seems to have a valid argument regarding the new codex. His point was that because they have made it so that the special characters are the ones who now bring special rules to a chapter, the vanilla marines have become the most boring army in 40K, as you can't really make your own unique chapter (at least not with special rules). This is compounded by the fact that many armies have been made a whole lot cooler, and better, with recent codexes and 5th Ed., leaving the army he invested in a little sucky, in his mind. Any thoughts? I haven't examined any of the SM codexes closely, and he is a bit of an exaggerator, but I just wanted to see what others think.

Well, I think his judgement is wrong.
The SM codex is the best out there in the 40k universe.
The default special rule of withdrawing from a critical situation is one of the best rules in the game,
much better than being stubborn.

If you want special char like Vulkan
Choose Salamanders

If you want a vanilla codex chapter, you can still use char like Vulkan if you want, noted above, but you can also use vanilla captains/librarians/chappys

To my mind having a small force of 1500 wielding Abbadon or Magnus Calgar is all wrong, those guys are at the epicentre of serious powerbases and would not be on routine patrols etc

wuestenfux wrote:The default special rule of withdrawing from a critical situation is one of the best rules in the game,
much better than being stubborn.

It is? Personally I find it rather limited.
It is quite good in the shooting phase to get out of assault range. However when you do get assaulted you have a somewhat limited chance of avoiding being caught in a sweeping advance.
You will get away from Orks 69%, Marines 40% & Eldar 26% of the time.

@ Lyracian: It really is that good. No other army has the ability to make that escape gamble. Everyone else is forced to accept the results of a morale test. Vanilla SM can choose to fail and roll that % chance to escape. It can be an exceptional gamebreaker against units that can't sweeping advance. If a unit of terminators leaves a couple of victims alive, or even better--rolls exceptionally poor leaving lots of people alive, the SM player can choose to fail and automatically get away. Guard players who pass the morale check in that situation certainly envy that ability.

Jihallah wrote:


Hey OP, If your friend wants a boring army to play, play CSM. Writing up lists can be mind numbing

So true, they need more lists to be opened up. Be that with special characters or other.

I think its one of the most versatile armies out there. people keep saying oh you can have 6 dreads.

I can have Six Dreadnoughts AND an all bike army. How is that.

Hit it like you mean it.

I play VSM and I cant figure out how anyone could call them sucky, I dont use SC and im making my own chapter.I still find them extremely versitile,Oh and by the way am I the only person likes combat squads?

As a Dark Eldar player with a decade+ old codex, I can't help but agree with your friend that space marines need more attention, right now.