Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The only problem I had with the VSM Dex was a lot of the flexibility was not there that I was hoping to.
So I went to this set up.


Company[Rules] Special Character
1st The Tiger Claws[Dark Angles]Belile/Chaplin [TDA]
2nd Reclusiam[Grey Knights]??/??
3rd Ecclesiastic[Black Templers]??/??
4th Tactical[Dark Angles]Azrael/Ezekiel
5th Tactical[Space Marines]Kayvaan Shrike/Chaplin [JP]
6th Tactical[Space Marines]Pedro Kantor/Librarian
7th Purgatory[Space Marines]Calgar/Vulcan He’stan
8th Assault [Blood Angles]??/??
9th Support[Space Marines]Antaro Chronus/MotF
10th Scout[Space Marines]Cato Sicatius/Kor’sarro Khan

I use a lot of combat squads, mostly with TAC/Scout Squads

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the flexibility not being there? And what are the strengths and weaknesses of a lot of combat squads, mostly TAC/Scout?

Horst wrote:space marines are an underpowered army. don't anyone even try to argue that they aren't. you REALLY need to know exactly what your doing with them, or else you will loose. SM should be more forgiving of mistakes, but they aren't. The units are just so damn expensive points wise, one slip up and its not unusual to see a whole tac squad just gone in one round of shooting. Sure, you can tool marines to beat any army, but the same can be said for most armies. a solid, balanced, take all comers marines list will struggle against all opponents... you have to earn your wins.

90% of the time you don't need cover, tac squads get free heavy and special weapons at full squad and we have ATSKNF.......
How are we underpowered again?

Are those the main strengths in your opinion, Altanis?

Soldiers don't whine!

They bleed and die and thank the Emperor for a chance at glory!

Seriously though - there's nothing underpowered about the Codex. You just have to learn how to maximize the effectiveness we have.

murdog wrote:Are those the main strengths in your opinion, Altanis?

Marine Strengths include:

+basic stats of 4 all around
+ability to fail moral tests at will when in bad situations (Combat Tactics)
+not destroyed if caught in a sweeping advance
+automatically rally even if below 50% so long as in coherency and outside 6" of enemy
+ability to move, shoot and assault as normal on the turn you rally (includes the ability to fire heavy weapons!)
+base LD8 with a LD9 model in virtually every squad to start
+best basic armor save in the game for an army as a whole (normal saves against all basic anti-infantry/high rate of fire weapons!)

Really, you can get alot of mileage out of a basic Marine squad. Are they competitive with the specialized elite units available to other armies? No. But they are generally better in at least one aspect of the game than the specialized elites (be it shooting or assault) and flat out better at shooting and assaulting than virtually every other basic trooper out there.

Panzerleader has armbarred the correct.

And weaknesses?

Cheese

Surprisngly easy to mess up. All but one of the marine players I know can't play them right.

Weaknesses include lack of specialization, high cost per unit, and somewhat fewer synergistic combinations than other armies. Marines always have a "take-all-comers" attitude in the way units are designed, which makes it hard to build specialist lists. We also have fewer CC options than most other "balanced" forces.

We have middle-of-the-road moderate mobility, although that was improved with the Land Speeder Storm. While they may not get there faster, once the Marines arrive, the idea is that they are hard to shift. In actual play, marines never live up to the "movie marine" ideal that we find in a lot of Black Library books. They aren't invincible super-humans, but they are a heck of a lot tougher than a Guardsman.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Weaknesses include lack of specialization, high cost per unit, and somewhat fewer synergistic combinations that other armies. Marines always have a "take-all-comers" attitude in the way units are designed, which makes it hard to build specialist lists. We also have fewer CC options than most other "balanced" forces.

Nailed it.

murdog wrote:I feel bad for calling my best buddy a whiner. It's more like a soldier's bitching. It's not that the SM don't have alot of things to choose from, it's that someone came a long and changed the rules on his 3000pt army that he collected and painted for 5+ years, so he's a little bitter, that's all (before we even played one 5th ed. game he almost refused to hand over any more money for new rules/codex, cursing GW and citing his 20y experience with their 'editions'. "They just want more money"). He'll get over it, this thread has been helpful so far. I guess the same thing has happened to all armies, with the characters providing different builds? That's what they've done to my guard, no more doctrines to mix up. That's the main thing i guess, the fact that you could choose from a bunch of upgrade rules, where now a handful of characters hold those rules.

So what are some of the current competitive VSM builds likely to feature, at the 1700-2000pts range? Full lists are helpful but not important.

And how do you VSM commanders handle the IG tanks now that they are so beefy? With the Master of Ordanance, 4 pieplates a round is not uncommon.

In general the most competitive builds are lead by one of three HQ's: Terminator Libby with stormshield, nullzone,& Gate of infinity, Pedro, or Vulkan.

Vulkan overloads on multimelta to crack transports, has flamers for hordes, and thunderhammer/stormshield terminators elite unit killing. At 2000 points I have 6 multi melta attack bikes, a couple melta/flamer tac squads, a land speeder with multi melta/heavy flamer, a land raider with terminators, A librarian to help stop psychic powers and throw up null zone, and three vindicators.

Pedro usually means seening lots of sternguard, as he makes them scoring.

The gated Librarian tends to lead more balanced lists, but even then they usually team up with sternguard to deep strike where needed.

With more and more cover save ignoring weapons most people go for tac squads in rhinos instead of scouts. Usually the most effective space marine armies are maxed out on fast attack choices with multi melta attack bikes and Land speeders (either heavy bolter/Missile launcher or Multimelta/Heavy flamer)taking up the slots. Assault terminators tend to be taken more then regular terminators, andheavy support tends to be spam (either 3 vindicqators or 3 predators)

I play VSM though I'm building up to a Imperial Fists army atm, and all I can say is they are not boring. Plus reminde him the glory of Assult Termies with a Chappie or even Lysander.

@Killjoy your not alone but combat squads generally cost me games lol.

asugradinwa: Don't forget bike troop lists lead by a bike captain. They are a very mobile surgical force that can be very difficult to deal with.

I think our new dex is great, but i do miss the customisability

I think a generic template for making a special character would be cool, kinda like the old customise your chapter template.

Perhaps a generic statline either a Captain, chaplain of libby.

add stat points for a certain points value.

wargear as normal for whatever class

Chapter tactics list like the other SCs available.


I normally don't play with SCs because the normal ones are pretty cool and hard by themselves.
and if your bored make a special character up, as long as its not to OP your friends will probably let you use it


Tell your buddy not to feel bad because his worries will be nothing compared to the dark eldar players when their new codex hits them and changes everything.

I think the main thing the 5th Ed Codex is missing is the customisation offered in 4th. You used to be able to buy Furious Charge or Tank Hunter on some units. Traits allowed you to get other other skills as well.

This is all gone. Now it is either Vanilla Marines or Special Character and the rules set they come with. Marines are probably more balanced now as many of the negative traits were meaningless to a lot of army builds.

Ok Im the friend murdog reffers to. Now he miss stood me in my bitching, but he's right I am a bitchy solder at right. Any ways my piont I was making was this. The new codax has loss the ablity to consenterate your efforts. Meaning for close combat the loss of close combat weapons for your tac sqs is a big loss, and for fire base the needing of 10 men sqs to get hy weapons mean less fire power in smaller games.

Another point is the fact they took an expensive army and made more expensive. Meaning your units have to come with sgts now thats 15pts not need maybe, and each addisional man cost 16 not 15. Sure you get a weapon for free but not all. The HQ force you to load them up now what make them cost more, and the character cost to much in my opintion.

Now to the piont of the cheats now if your character goes down you loss your cheats, and some have ranges what can be a pain in the ass.
Which also lead to the lack of sparkall sure the new codax give some new units at high cost of coures but they are all in all the same. Where the other races got a bust. For example orks got a big hand to hand bust now 10 man tac sq is to take on a 30 man ork sq that get 3 attachs each in close combat and both units cost the same all most.

All and all the main reason for bitching is my stat was fielding as may units as possable by keeping the cost as little as possable aswell fielding as much fire power as possable and have 2 key tac unit for close combat counters. What I mean is 6 5 man tac sqs all with heavy weapons 2HQ sq with heavy weapons than i used a cheat that allowed more tac sq so there even 3more 5man tacs sqs. Keeping it all cheep by uses no sgts and use just plain 65 point captains except for my counter cc sqs. Top all that with some vec support. All that would be a 1500 to 2000 piont games.

One last thing some of my frustation come with coming up with a well balance army to take on all army, and a imperal army that demorallies my power armour.

Cheats? Idk wtf you are talking about "cheating" for because really you can't cheat if you use your codex. If it's legal from the codex you aren't cheating. Now, you can cheat and take what you are not supposed to but really you could have "12" tac squads (6x combat squadding) still. Half of those can have Lascannons half can have meltaguns and be in rhinos. Tada!

You can still perform mass fire-power Smurf builds. You truly can. But your days of being an awesome gunline are over. Smurfs are now how they should. They don't sit back and just shoot like Tau, they are very mobile and versitle, the epitome of the space marines.

Creating a well balanced smurf list is so easy it's scary. You just have to think and cover your points. I assume by your previous army you want a pseudo-gunline style army? Take a libby, 3x Double AC dreads, 10 man smurf squads with lascannon / MG / rhino and combat squad with LC sitting back MG + Rhino rushing, then take predators w/ AC/HB for heavy support and if you can MM AB or LS w/ MM/HF or MM. You got all your angles covered now.

If anything you could afford to sneak in a TH/SS unit for an elite chioce but with that kinda mobility and firepower you should be fine.

Tac squad sarges don't take PW or PF btw in this build, put a Combi-Melta or flamer and/or meltabombs if anything.

GL.

By 'cheats' he means the special rules all armies have access to, the ones which modify the regular rules in their favour. They used to be a little more unique in each book, now they mostly come with the special characters.

You don't lose the Special rules for SCs if they die.

The rules state that The Chapter tactics replaces Combat tactics permanatly for that game.

Im not that keen on the new codex that much, bu its probably mainly due to the fact that i despise the Ultramarines with a passion. Put some new characters into some other SM chapters already ffs!

I hate Smurfs too

Marneus has just undergone identy theft+face lift and now leads my 2nd company, the Spartan's

(Yes, assault termies with greek shields and golden/red armour are on the list of conversions to do in my lifetime)

IMHO, Marines are WAAAAYY more versatile and power-heavy than at LEAST orks. I am a newbie (Started about 2wks ago) and bought the black reach set. I played against my friend, who loves orks from DoW, and he never got a hit, until I got into assault range. then, the +3 always saved me, since (sciency part coming) HOLES DO NOT HAVE MASS. science has proven that most rolls will be above three since gravity pulls weight down. The only reason 6's are uncommon is because they collect alot of residue from your hand when you pick them up, thus making that side slightly heavier and less likely to stop. And then there's the fact that marines can shoot, assault with friggin' chain weapons or power swords, AND toss in a 'nade or two. and then there was that thing where you can roll to run from an assault thing. and the fact that dreads and most of their vehicles have the extremely long-range (TT range that is) weapons.

Oh, and the 3+ Saves. did I mention those? Yes? Okay, I'll mention it some more ! Troops Marines have 3+ SAVES!!!!!! who cares if an ork can chant "tank, tank, tank" and be a frigging tank? MARINES ARE THE TANKS OF HUMANITY. Plus, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, etc. And for making your own special characters, as long as they are'nt overpowered or under points, I'd be fine if you fielded a "sgt. Fuzzyboots, with 'red goes faster' and a special instant morale boost/win and two ranged atks". as long as he cost a fair amount.

and here is my understanding of the races:

SM: Balanced race, used by most newbies for their easy learning curve.
Eldar: Balanced, but more top-heavy on the ranged.
Orks: Swarm with limited ranged and high assault. for beginners' swarmers.
Tyranids: Swarm/assault, with limited/no ranged. advanced swarm.
T'au: Ranged, with limited/no assault.
Necrons: The Advanced race. next to no troops choices, but ideal for Apoc.
IGgies: Ranged Swarm races, with topheavy Heavy support. Intermediate swarm.
DE: idk, my bff Jill?
INQ: Jack-of-all-trades. Advanced.
Chaos: Boring jack-of-all-trades. topheavy on attacks and Elite/HQ choices.

I think that is all of them. feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Later,
~~--Bladebaka