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A lot of tournaments these day's are open list, where you can see what your opponent is bringing but what about when you go down to the store or over to a friends house. Do you pull your army out before rolling for sides or do you wait until it's your turn to place model's on the table.

I played someone a while back and they didn't tell me the army they were playing or anything until after the roll for side and turn. Don't know if they just didn't think about it or if it was part of their "strategy" . Looking around the shop I've seen some people that just put their army on a tray and then get a game in and some people that don't unpack until it's game time. I've also seen, in tournaments, where people pack back up there army, move to a new table, and not unload until placement.

Do people have standard house rules or conventions in there area's for this? Has anyone else seen behavior like that? Have you ever done it?

Typically after getting a random pick up game, I will usually pull out my models before the first turn or at least tell someone what I'm playing, like vehicle heavy tau, or tzeentch daemons, etc. If they are going first I usually give them a bit more detailed information.

Usually you hand them an army list before you do anything...or at least tell them what army you're playing.

I've never seen anyone try to hide the race they are playing.

I only play with friends or store mega-games where the crowd is a fun, friendly one. Surprises as to what units one will be facing, just like in roleplay games, can be fun. I never ask to know every unit I'll be facing ahead of time nor do I go out of my way to display every unit. Being surprised about some of the units in an army can be fun.

I played in Lucky 13s mega-game at a GW store last week. A lot of people used reserves and the surprises were definitely fun and exciting on both sides. You should have seen faces when I rolled a 5-Vindicator Linebreaker Squadron onto the table from reserve, teleported a Titanhammer onto the field, and walked on a Warhound Titan. At one point in the game I charged a unit of mostly black primed unpainted Dark Reapers. You should have seen my face when I found out there was a Maugan Ra model buried in that sea of black primer.

I think it is fine to keep your list close to your chest until just before the game starts (ie before deployment), but you should always show your list before the game starts.

I think it adds another element to the game to keep your list hidden until the turns have been picked and the table sides have been chosen. This really helps armies which might have a trick hidden in them.

Then again, it is fine to shout your list from the rooftops if you really want to (though I would just suggest showing your list as soon as you meet up, rather than actually shouting ).

Nor i, its standard to clarify each unit to your opponnent so there isnt any confusion. IE. this is 20 goblins with nets and no commmand or some such. We never tell if there is anything hidden in a unit or what magic it has, but clarification is a must i would think. If someone is 'hiding the army' make sure you snap a pic of it and then ask for the army list to compare after the game, cause somefink aint right.

I definitely support the idea that it's important that it's clear what a unit is once it's deployed, especially if everything is not WYSIWYG. Once the models are on the table there shouldn't be big surprises because of deceptive appearances. In other words, a Guardsmen with a lasgun shouldn't turn out to be some superhero with a power sword. And of course, if your opponent asks to see your list, they should be allowed to do so, but playing games only with friends this has rarely or never happened for me. I rarely if ever ask to see my friend's list and vice versa. If I've done so, it might have been out of curiosity and was probably near the end of or after a game.

I am guilty of this only in my local store where most of the other gamers make a list when you agree to a game, thus if your army is on show they will happily tailor it to pounding you into the dirt. This is especially true when playing my daemons against space marines 'oh your playing daemons I'll use my librarian with null zone then'. I write a list and play that list and you can quite happily see that list and the models as soon as you can provide the same.

Do you really need to rely on hiding your list to get an edge over your opponent? No one I know plays like this and if I ever dealt with someone who did, they would not be getting a very high comp score from me. Competitive games depend on transparency and openness.

Friendly games, well, whatever floats your boat.

For random games w tend to get 4+ people together with lists and then roll to decide who plays whom. Although campaigns fall into another catagory entirely.

Makes hiding a list -- as well as building a list to kill one army -- almost worthless.

I have never played a tourney where lists were not shown to the opponent prior to the game, or in fact created one where lists were not created before the tourney.

My army just hides. I can never find it...

I hide it from my wife (no dearest, this is not a new box set, these are the ones I've been working on all year).

haha same from my mum

I think people might hide what magic items thier characters are holding in WHFB but apart from that i see no reason to hide anything else.

No, but then, there's actually a rule in 5th ed requiring you to show your list if asked for.

But if there wasn't, I'd still show it, because I don't particularly care if they know or not.

I do this sometimes, as mentioned before, against people who build their list on the fly, to have a few to choose from. I either run Chaos Rhino/CSM Spam or big Daemon spam, and it makes a big difference. It's not to get an edge over my opponent, but to prevent him from getting an edge over me. Obviously open-list tourneys are a different story.

I normally declare what I am playing up front prior to the game. Though I have known players who won't, which isn't really that bad as it keeps you on your toes and forces you to create more balanced lists.

In regards to sharing lists, I declare what is what during my deployment. Any questions and I show him the list. I prefer to suprise and be suprised by the oposition. More strategy that way if I am setting up first. "Did he bring outflankers that will threaten the table edges? Should I castle to minimize a potential alpha strike?"

If someone asks for the list up front, I simply request that he returns the favor.

For 40k its a "show before the game starts". For the current version of WHFB it is a "give them the list AFTER the game ENDS". As someone stated above it's because of units like assissins(in the skaven army), gobo fanatics, and some magic items which need to be hidden to be used effectively.

Normally before a game I ask whether my opponent wants to see my list and I explain what each unit is for when I deploy.

Normally I'd have my army on the "Tray" that I schlep from table-to-table, further and further from the first table as the day goes along. I've never been asked for my list, as I've explained my army before had and my opponent has done the same. Once I had someone check the Dogs of War rules as I had included a unit of Halfling archers in my army. It was kind of an eye-brow raiser as he was playing Dogs of War and had just finished teling me how he knew the rules inside and out before I deployed the unit.

I've never played in a tournament that wasn't open list, and I love my tournaments, so I always ask and read an army list before I choose sides or desploy objectives. In friendly games or in a leauge I'll generally tell the other player what I'm playing and then explain each unit as I deploy them, along with stating what is in reserve.

A friend of mine played in a tournament at the Seattle battlebunker last week in which his oppenent didn't have an army list ready and didn't explain anything during deployment. Suddenly that Rhino was now a vindicator and Dante was Shrike.

Of course, the guy also thought snipers have a 72" range, and that you can attach Shrike to Vanguard Vets and deploy them in Dawn of War as your HQ choice.

Yeah......

I hide my army until the game starts with my friends. It's nice to have a surprise both ways, and has led to some really entertaining battles. For example, the time in 4th edition where in a 2v2 a friend and I mounted every squad in rhinos and did an epic rhino rush. Of course, being 4th edition it didn't work terribly well, but it was still awesome.

Nope, full disclosure all the way, whether league, pyramid, tourney, open-gaming, whatever. I'm gonna beat you because I'm a better player, both strategically (list-building) and tactically (on the table) than you, not because I surprised you with a unit you didn't even know existed.

I had one guy I played against who would show up to your house and then customized his army based on what your army contained. He was repeatable told to have his army prepared before showing up, but he had an assortment of tricks to get around this. One time he showed up with a complete army list all set to game and requested to see my army list. When we started to set up he proclaimed that he had forgotten to bring his 10 man ogryn squad and some other units, but he had other models to make up the missing points in his army. He then spent 15-30 minutes customizing his force to combat mine. I was more upset about having to wait for him while he was customizing then his attempt to build his army to beat my army.

The next game I brought a closed box and placed my army list face down on the table. He came in and looked around and was unable to see my forces and asked where I had it. I informed him my army list was on the table and my models where contained in the nearby box. When he was ready to game and sure he had his army ready I would reveal them to him.

I play multiply armies and we would schedule multiple games at the same point value a night. I would bring 3 different armies at 1500 points that would play against his one army list of 1500. If he wanted to heavily customized against one he is taking a chance at disadvantaging himself against the others. But I found the first trick was the one method that curtailed his, “Let me make my army on the spot” waste of my time.

I generally lay the army out and walk the person through the army of whats what so their are no suprises. Thats for 40k. Fantasy they get a general idea of whats what in the lay out, as in fantasy there are hidden things that need o be hidden-fantics, assassin, etc...

Grunt13 wrote:I had one guy I played against who would show up to your house and then customized his army based on what your army contained.

Wow. Kinda TFG move, especially with the rest of what you wrote. Honestly, I'd just say, "Well, that's your army list, not that other stuff just happened to bring. Either counts-as or they're lost points."

Personally, if I forgot something, I wouldn't even count-as unless it was a friendly informal game. I'd just write it off and play with those points missing to serve as a reminder unless I forgot half my army, in which case I wouldn't have other models to backfill anyway, so then I'd insist we have a few beers and do something else.

I'd never hide details until that late, niether would I want to play against someone who does.

The only situation something similar might occur would be if I turned up with my army list already written, and a friend hadn't written their list yet. In this case I wouldn't show them my exact choices until they'd chosen their force too, otherwise they'll get a pretty big advantage.

If there are 'hidden' units, then I'd say what I've GOT, I just wouldn't tell the opponent where they are. I'd like to know that my opponent is using Callidus/Mandrakes/Skaven Assasins or whatever, but I wouldn't expect them to tell me exactly where.

i usually tend to make an all comers list and start setting it up on the table when the opponents are decided via dice rolls at my LGS. i always tell my opponent what army i'm playing but not specifically what is in it and i expect the same from them. there is one person at the store who makes his army list on the spot and his eyes tend to drift over to his opponent's unboxing force, lol.

Tournaments in my LGS usually have prepared lists before hand. Far as I know, nobody down there minds a list being made once you show up. Our biggest concern is the list being written legibly with the points showing. During campaigns lists are made up on the spot and nobody seems to mind.

daedalus wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:I had one guy I played against who would show up to your house and then customized his army based on what your army contained.

Wow. Kinda TFG move, especially with the rest of what you wrote. Honestly, I'd just say, "Well, that's your army list, not that other stuff just happened to bring. Either counts-as or they're lost points."

Personally, if I forgot something, I wouldn't even count-as unless it was a friendly informal game. I'd just write it off and play with those points missing to serve as a reminder unless I forgot half my army, in which case I wouldn't have other models to backfill anyway, so then I'd insist we have a few beers and do something else.

The craziest thing about it is I knew for a fact that he didn’t even have 10 ogryn models. Later I played a little joke on the guy I brought down my ulthwe’ eldar army on a tray and left them kind of sequestered in a corner of the game room, knowing that the player would hone in on them right away. I placed my army list face down on the table. He comes in with an incomplete list and is informed that when his army is ready I will reveal my forces.

He sees the eldar and begins to tailor away for 15 minutes while I patiently wait and make small talk. Once his models are out and his army list is handed to me I hand pick my list off the table and hand it to him; it’s an EC force. I pick my army out of a tucked away box and prepare for setup. He comments on my eldar army, I look over to his gesture with mild-surprised interests and say nonchalantly that they were left over from a previous game and I haven’t gotten around to putting them away yet.

I hand write my lists, and so show the list to who ever Im playing, mostly so they dont think theres any cheating. Not only that, but sometimes they can catch something you completely forget. It happens from time to time.