Terminators with independent characters; sweeping advance

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**General Fuzzum**

Hey guys, Im putting my captain with some assault termies, and I remembered that people in terminator armour couldn't perform a sweeping advance. However, my captain has artificer armour. I didn't see anything under the sweeping advance or terminator armor sections. I think that they could, since a captain could perform one by himself anyways, so why would it matter if he was attached to terminators. My brother, however says otherwise. What's your take on it?

**BlueDagger**

If the captain is attached to the unit then no he can not try to sweep by himself. The unit is consider one whole when the IC attaches to it and even though in CC they are counted seperate they count as one again at the conclusion of the attacks before rolling for morale.

**ZacktheChaosChild**

40k Rulebook pg. 48:

"Special Rules:"

"Unless specified in the rule itself, (as in the 'stubborn' special rule) the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, a character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, if an independant character without the 'infiltrate' rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules section for details)."

I say the unit of Terminators cannot perform a Sweeping Advance, even if the character in the unit can.

I don't know about you, but the rules make themselves pretty clear right there.

**solkan**

Depending on the codex which is being used, Terminator Armor has a rule which says things like "... [Models] in Terminator armour may not Sweeping Advance after assaults."

Sweeping advances are performed by the entire unit, so a single model being prohibited from performing a sweeping advance effectively prohibits the entire unit from doing so without the rule being passed on to the IC.

**General Fuzzum**

Well Zach, that's just it. It doesn't specifically state under the terminator armor's profile that any IC that joins the unit loses the ability to perform a sweeping advance, so by what you just stated, he should still be able to.
And I know that the entire unit performs the sweeping advance as a whole, but if part of the unit could still do it (and if what i said earlier is true), then there shouldn't be a problem. When I have problems with RAW, I just try to think about it in game-world terms. If a captain could perform a sweeping advance by himself, then he should still be able to do it by himself when he's attached to a unit. He wouldn't be seperating from the unit, he's just slaughtering the fleeing enemies. And it's not like the terminators are going to tell him to slow down, y'know?

**thebetter1**

It isn't clear whether a mixed unit can sweeping advance. I say it can, because shooting is a unit action but not every member of the unit has to be able to shoot.

**nosferatu1001**

No, shooting is declared by each unit but you are then explicitly required to determine whether each model can shoot - it is not the same as SA at all.

The unit must SA, and a member (at least) cannot do so - meaning the unit as a whole cannot perform the action. If you want to SA like this detach the IC from the unit in the movement phase and asasult as two units.

**DogOfWar**

No you may not.

Such is the price you pay for having your IC in with his big scary Terminator brethren.

I believe you would need to separate them during the movement phase and assault independently in order to execute a SA with the IC alone.

DoW

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And had I read Nosferatu's post, I would've realized mine was redundant in the extreme! Woo!

**General Fuzzum**

Yeah I know that i could just seperate them before I assaulted to eliminate confusion anyways. Im not tryin to be picky here, but can you guys quote the BGB or something?

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

BRB, Page 40 wrote:Some troops..are not allowed to make a sweeping advance-in such cases the enemy always manages to disengage safely.

**solkan**

Apart from the bit about "Some troops, as detailed in their entries, are not allowed to make a sweeping advance ..." at the end of the Sweeping Advance rules. It's really between that and the second paragraph of that section--the unit sweeping advances, and when that happens all of the models in the unit are included without an option to opt out.

Like Nosferatu1001 mentioned, shooting doesn't have this sort of problem because it's possible for individual models in a unit to opt out of shooting when necessary or desired.

**Lord_Ghazghkull**

if your terminators cant kill something then you either roll horribly.. or you are using them wrong.. but i use TH/ss terminators and they dont need to Sweeping advance. but as has been said.. even if one person isnt wearing terminator armor.. he cant seeping advance.. because he is part of a terminator unit. and Terminators may not sweeping advance

**Arctik_Firangi**

What you can do, if it is your turn, is detach the character in your movement phase and charge him in seperately. In the situation of a combat win, the independent character would most certainly be able to perform a sweeping advance. He would not, however, be able to rejoin the unit until the end of the next friendly movement phase, so it's generally not worth it unless you absolutely know you're going to be locked for the first round.

**MasterSlowPoke**

How about Grey Hunters with a single Wolf Guard in Terminator armor attached? Can that unit Sweep?

**time wizard**

From page 102 of Codex:Space Marines, "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance."

I wouldn't matter if there was a unit with 20 termies or just 1, any unit that terminators were part of could not perform sweeping advances.

Think of it as being similar to movement, any unit moves at the speed of the slowest model. If you had and IC with a group of assault troops, he couldn't move their distance of 12", they have to move his 6". Same kind of idea.

If there is one model in a unit and a rule prohibits that model from performing a specific action (or USR for example) then the entire unit is prohibited from performing that action.

**BlueDagger**

MasterSlowPoke wrote:How about Grey Hunters with a single Wolf Guard in Terminator armor attached? Can that unit Sweep?

If a model has termie armor then no it can not. If a model prohibits the ability to do something (IE move at the slowest pace, unable to infiltrate/outflank, etc because a model does have the ability) then the entire unit may not.

Imagine 9 guys in termie armor are escorted by one not termie, they beat up some IG and the IG sprint away. The sole one guy will not run off by himself after them like a dumbbutt to try and kill the rest, which would likely end in getting himself killed.

**DogOfWar**

BlueDagger wrote:
MasterSlowPoke wrote:How about Grey Hunters with a single Wolf Guard in Terminator armor attached? Can that unit Sweep?

If a model has termie armor then no it can not. If a model prohibits the ability to do something (IE move at the slowest pace, unable to infiltrate/outflank, etc because a model does have the ability) then the entire unit may not.

Imagine 9 guys in termie armor are escorted by one not termie, they beat up some IG and the IG sprint away. The sole one guy will not run off by himself after them like a dumbbutt to try and kill the rest, which would likely end in getting himself killed.

True, but it does make sense, however, for 9 guys in power armour to chase down those pesky IG and leave Sergeant Terminator bringing up the rear.

Regardless, it doesn't matter too much since you're right that if a unit contains a model in terminator armour, the unit cannot perform a sweeping advance.

Shame, but I'll trade SA for a 2+/5++/extra attack any day.

DoW

**Harkainos**

General Fuzzum wrote:Well Zach, that's just it. It doesn't specifically state under the terminator armor's profile that any IC that joins the unit loses the ability to perform a sweeping advance, so by what you just stated, he should still be able to.
And I know that the entire unit performs the sweeping advance as a whole, but if part of the unit could still do it (and if what i said earlier is true), then there shouldn't be a problem. When I have problems with RAW, I just try to think about it in game-world terms. If a captain could perform a sweeping advance by himself, then he should still be able to do it by himself when he's attached to a unit. He wouldn't be seperating from the unit, he's just slaughtering the fleeing enemies. And it's not like the terminators are going to tell him to slow down, y'know?

This is not how the rules make. They must explicitly state that you CAN in order for you to have the ability. They do not, however, need to explicitly state you CAN'T...

Otherwise we'd have armies from 2 different codices.... because it doesn't say you can't.

I also bolded where you are getting confused. While it is great to envision how it would look if the game were in-fact real... it is not. Not even close to it. The rules as they are written are our ONLY source, not you imagination.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:What you can do, if it is your turn, is detach the character in your movement phase and charge him in seperately. In the situation of a combat win, the independent character would most certainly be able to perform a sweeping advance. He would not, however, be able to rejoin the unit until the end of the next friendly movement phase, so it's generally not worth it unless you absolutely know you're going to be locked for the first round.

This would be the most accurate method

**KingCracker**

Im learning that no matter HOW MUCH real world sense it might make, if the rules do not specifically say that they CAN, then they cant. IE the ambush rule thread. Sure a charter in super massively heavy mega armor is really slow and ALWAYS moves as if moving through difficult terrain, and is incredibly slow and such. But since the rules for ambush do not state it only effects a kommando unit, and just says unit, then its perfectly fine for said giant mega armor character to use the ambush rule as well, since he joined the unit (talk about rules abuse)

Anyways, even tho it would make sense to use the SA rule how your talking, you cant because the rules dont say you can. Even if only one was a terminator and the rest were regular SM. You can however make a house rule that allows you to do that, though good luck with that one lol

**thebetter1**

Are you guys seriously bringing up "It doesn't say I can, so I can't?"

You're saying that the rules specifically say that a Tactical Squad can sweeping advance, but they don't say that a Tactical Squad with a Terminator joined can sweeping advance? Get your facts straight. I can't think of a single unit in the game where it explicitly says they can SA.

**KingCracker**

Except for models in terminator armor cannot sweeping advance. And if you attach it to a unit that normally CAN sweeping advance, he effectively makes that unit unable to sweeping advance. Its the same thing as a unit moves according to the slowest model and such. Read up on terminators and itll tell you that they cant sweeping advance.

**kirsanth**

thebetter1 wrote:Are you guys seriously bringing up "It doesn't say I can, so I can't?"

Even if so, would that be odd?
The rules are based around giving permission to take actions -- not around lists of things that cannot be done.

**thebetter1**

kirsanth wrote:
thebetter1 wrote:Are you guys seriously bringing up "It doesn't say I can, so I can't?"
Even if so, would that be odd?
The rules are based around giving permission to take actions -- not around lists of things that cannot be done.

If you truly believe this, then try doing anything at all in a game and you will find that absolutely no action is allowed explicitly for your exact situation, so the game will never even start.

The BRB rule about not being able to sweeping advance is very vague. It uses phrases like "In such cases" without really explaining what the cases are in terms of mixed units.

KingCracker wrote:Its the same thing as a unit moves according to the slowest model and such. Read up on terminators and itll tell you that they cant sweeping advance.

If sweeping advances are done at the speed of the slowest model, why do we take majority Initiative instead of the lowest?

I have not once claimed that Terminators are able to sweeping advance. My argument is that a member of a unit not being able to do something does not necessarily stop the whole unit from doing it.

**kirsanth**

**Barthonis**

WOW, cant believe this is getting so much fierce debate....BRB seems pretty clear, or at least to me, and I dont even play SMs so I'm not trying to get myself a bonus or anything. Units with an IC attached assault at the slowest models spped in that unit. Since terminators cannot SA (which is part of the assault phase) because they are too slow and pokey, it seems like a no brainer.

And in the simplest terms, if you try that and your opponent says NO WAY, you either can argue all night, dice it off, or agree to disagree and play someone else. I presonally think it would be cheesey to attempt this.

YMMV.

~Bart
my 2 pfennigs worth.

**warboss**

+1 for no sweeping advance. if ANY number of terminators are part of a unit, that unit cannot sweeping advance the same way having a relentless terminator model in a unit doesn't give the unit relentless. a unit is restricted in all forms of movement by the slowest model, in this case the termie. you can easily get around this by simply disattaching the IC in termie armor in the movement phase PRIOR to charging so that you have two wholey separate units in the combat. since you can only join/leave a unit in the movement phase, it doesn't matter if you're within 2" in the assault phase. feel free to SA in this situation.

**don_mondo**

And another +1 for no sweeping advance. Is there a termie in the unit? If so, no sweeping advance.

**BeRzErKeR**

Nope, nothing in termie armor gets to SA, ever, at all, period.

Reson number 14632 Orks are better than Space Marines: MANZ can SA. In your face, terminators!

**thebetter1**

Barthonis wrote:Units with an IC attached assault at the slowest models spped in that unit. Since terminators cannot SA (which is part of the assault phase) because they are too slow and pokey, it seems like a no brainer.

It seems like I just defeated this argument in my last post, with the whole majority initiative thing.

warboss wrote:+1 for no sweeping advance. if ANY number of terminators are part of a unit, that unit cannot sweeping advance the same way having a relentless terminator model in a unit doesn't give the unit relentless.

Except that a relentless terminator model can continue to fire as if it is stationary even when in a non-relentless unit.

don_mondo wrote:And another +1 for no sweeping advance. Is there a termie in the unit? If so, no sweeping advance.

This isn't a rules argument, so I have no rules response.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Nope, nothing in termie armor gets to SA, ever, at all, period.

Again, this is not a rules argument.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Reson number 14632 Orks are better than Space Marines: MANZ can SA. In your face, terminators!

So how exactly is it cheese to sweeping advance with a mixed unit?

**General Fuzzum**

Harkainos wrote:
This is not how the rules make. They must explicitly state that you CAN in order for you to have the ability. They do not, however, need to explicitly state you CAN'T...

Otherwise we'd have armies from 2 different codices.... because it doesn't say you can't.

I also bolded where you are getting confused. While it is great to envision how it would look if the game were in-fact real... it is not. Not even close to it. The rules as they are written are our ONLY source, not you imagination.

Ok, It definitely says in the friggin actuall rule book that ALL units can SA, unless it specifically says they cant. It DOES specifically state that any model in Terminator armour cant. It DOES NOT say specifically say that models in power armour can, because its already in the rules.

Listen to me, all you nay-sayers out there.
Using YOUR logic, im going to explain this.
It does say that ALL Victors can perform a SA. It also says in the SM Codex that models in terminator armor cant. So there, my terminators cant sweeping advance, and my captain can. Oh noes! I wanna attach my captain to my terminators, whatever should i do?!
It does provide an exception to the all-encompassing rule of what I just stated when saying that termies cant SA, but it doesn't provide an exception for mixed units. So since it already says that all units can SA, except for termies, by your logic, they still should be able to, because the rulebook already said that they can.

And what the do you mean the rule book is our only source?!?! THE FIRST THING IN THE ENTIRE RULE BOOK, STATED BY GAMES WORKSHOP AS THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE, IS THAT, "...so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game." -page friggin 2 of the BGB

Obviously there wouldnt even be a section of the forum dedicated to this if what you just said was true.
Again, a captain could do a SA by himself, so why would his fellow killer-buddies stop him from slaughtering a fleeing enemy if he wouldnt even leave their presence?
THEY WOULDN'T.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, It definitely says in the friggin actuall rule book that ALL units can SA, unless it specifically says they cant. It DOES specifically state that any model in Terminator armour cant. It DOES NOT say specifically say that models in power armour can, because its already in the rules.

Listen to me, all you nay-sayers out there.
Using YOUR logic, im going to explain this.
It does say that ALL Victors can perform a SA. It also says in the SM Codex that models in terminator armor cant. So there, my terminators cant sweeping advance, and my captain can. Oh noes! I wanna attach my captain to my terminators, whatever should i do?!
It does provide an exception to the all-encompassing rule of what I just stated when saying that termies cant SA, but it doesn't provide an exception for mixed units. So since it already says that all units can SA, except for termies, by your logic, they still should be able to, because the rulebook already said that they can.

And what the do you mean the rule book is our only source?!?! THE FIRST THING IN THE ENTIRE RULE BOOK, STATED BY GAMES WORKSHOP AS THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE, IS THAT, "...so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game." -page friggin 2 of the BGB

Obviously there wouldnt even be a section of the forum dedicated to this if what you just said was true.
Again, a captain could do a SA by himself, so why would his fellow killer-buddies stop him from slaughtering a fleeing enemy if he wouldnt even leave their presence?
THEY WOULDN'T.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry, wrote that wierd. Harkainos only wrote the first 3 things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, i wrote that wierd. Harkainos only said the first three things.