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It doesn't specifically state you can completely ignore a rule given to them, so you can't. It is that simple.

Just because 1 character can do it, doesn't mean ALL of the others get to ignore that rule. Please truly look at the implications of this. A 10 man terminator squad may now sweeping advance because 1 (60pt) model joins them.

WOW THAT WOULD BE AWESOME (because I play Space Marines) but it isn't true, in the slightest.

Of course you can always have house rules, but I don't think you will get many games in, especially with people who actually understand the rules.

Harkainos wrote:It doesn't specifically state you can completely ignore a rule given to them, so you can't. It is that simple.

It also doesn't say what the rule does when not all members of a unit have the rule, and it is not clearly implied.

Harkainos wrote:Of course you can always have house rules, but I don't think you will get many games in, especially with people who actually understand the rules.

By "people who actually understand the rules" do you really mean "people who played Space Marines in 4th edition?" Because that's the reason most people believe mixed units can't sweeping advance.

But it's not a rule given to THEM, unless by THEM you mean just the terminators. Because unless my codex is lying to me, which i can assure you it's not, it does not specifically state that a captain, or anyone with power armor for that matter, cannot perform a sweeping advance when attached to a unit of terminators.
And those terminators aren't ignoring their rule! They could be pissing on a tree for all I care, it's just the captain that's doing the SA. There's a reason you use the highest Inish for SA. Its because you only need one person to do it. Technically, if a captain was somehow fighting a 30 man squad of IG, and he killed one in battle, and then they lost their Ld test, he would still be able to kill the other 29 dudes in SA. Thats definitely in the rules, so why would adding another 200 points of people to it somehow make it unfair?
And the captain i'm referring to is 170 points for the record.

Unit Alpha has one Captain with Artifcer Armor attached to a ten man Assault Terminator unit. This is one unit. It charges Unit Bravo, a nonfearless unit of something that can survive a charge by ten assault terminators (a full IG blob platoon with good luck?). Unit Alpha wins combat by 8. Unit Bravo fails its morale check, forcing it to fall back. Unit Alpha can either a) attemt to SA or b) watch them run. Performing a would force terminators to sweeping advance, violating the rules for terminator armor. Option b forces a violation of the rules for SA, but the rules for terminator armor are more specific ("terminators" is more specific than "units") meaning that b is the option you must perform.

I'm disappointed. I thought this was a rebirth of the whole "terminators aren't terminators" argument.

GF - you use majority init now anyway for SA

The terminators CANNOT SA so forcing them to will be violating their rules

thebetter1 wrote:My argument is that a member of a unit not being able to do something does not necessarily stop the whole unit from doing it.

But it does.

If the model is not allowed to perform a given action, and you try to perform that action with a unit that model is a part of, you are breaking the rule that says that model is not allowed to perform that action.


The only way you would not be prevented from performing that action would be if you had another rule that said that mixed units could do so regardless of whether individual models are allowed.


Terminators have a rule that says that they can not perform a Sweeping Advance. If a Terminator is part of a unit that performs a Sweeping Advance, you have broken that rule.

I have examples of situations where a unit does not have to be made up of members who can all take an action to perform a unit action.

1. Shooting: a unit with an unarmed member can still shoot, even though the unarmed model is clearly unable to shoot

2. Sweeping Advance With a Slow Model: an I1 model cannot possibly sweep an I7 opponent, yet if the I1 model is attached to a squad with a higher majority initiative, the unit will be able to sweep the opponent. Keep in mind that you're argument requires that the I1 model is personally performing the sweeping advance.

Based on these, does anyone have any actual arguments to show that all models in a unit need to have an ability for the unit to have that ability?

thebetter1 wrote:I have examples of situations where a unit does not have to be made up of members who can all take an action to perform a unit action.

1. Shooting: a unit with an unarmed member can still shoot, even though the unarmed model is clearly unable to shoot

2. Sweeping Advance With a Slow Model: an I1 model cannot possibly sweep an I7 opponent, yet if the I1 model is attached to a squad with a higher majority initiative, the unit will be able to sweep the opponent. Keep in mind that you're argument requires that the I1 model is personally performing the sweeping advance.

Based on these, does anyone have any actual arguments to show that all models in a unit need to have an ability for the unit to have that ability?

Let's see:
1. Page 16, a player is allowed to choose not to fire with various models if they choose. Absent this rule, the whole unit would have to fire.

And then the various places where one model can prohibit an entire unit from acting, or otherwise hinder the unit:
1. One single model firing a heavy weapon prohibits the entire unit from assaulting.
2. One single model firing a rapid fire weapon prohibits the entire unit from assaulting.
3. One model in a unit moving causes the entire unit to count as moving and prevent heavy weapon fire.
4. If any model in a unit would encounter difficult terrain, then the entire unit is subject to a difficult terrain test.

There are plenty of situations in which one model can prohibit an entire unit from. Since Sweeping Advance specifies that the unit is performing the action, and doesn't include any mechanism for only having part of the unit perform the action, then it's all or nothing.

So where's the permission to perform a sweeping advance with only a portion of a unit?

solkan wrote:And then the various places where one model can prohibit an entire unit from acting, or otherwise hinder the unit:
1. One single model firing a heavy weapon prohibits the entire unit from assaulting.
2. One single model firing a rapid fire weapon prohibits the entire unit from assaulting.
3. One model in a unit moving causes the entire unit to count as moving and prevent heavy weapon fire.
4. If any model in a unit would encounter difficult terrain, then the entire unit is subject to a difficult terrain test.

All of these examples explicitly say that every model is involved. What you actually need is a general statement that is always true unless otherwise specified.

thebetter1 wrote:

Harkainos wrote:It doesn't specifically state you can completely ignore a rule given to them, so you can't. It is that simple.

It also doesn't say what the rule does when not all members of a unit have the rule, and it is not clearly implied.

Harkainos wrote:Of course you can always have house rules, but I don't think you will get many games in, especially with people who actually understand the rules.

By "people who actually understand the rules" do you really mean "people who played Space Marines in 4th edition?" Because that's the reason most people believe mixed units can't sweeping advance.

Well, I somehow doubt he's referring to you.)

Really? This is still going? I always love the threads where someone comes up with some new way to bend a rule and acts like their a prophet showing us all how to play the game.

If some part of the unit can't sweeping advance, the unit can't sweeping advance.

thebetter1 wrote:I have examples of situations where a unit does not have to be made up of members who can all take an action to perform a unit action.

I already pointed out that was possible... if a rule specifically allows it.

1. Shooting: a unit with an unarmed member can still shoot, even though the unarmed model is clearly unable to shoot

The rules specifically allow you to choose which models in the unit are firing. So there is no requirement for all models in the unit to be able to shoot for the unit to shoot.

2. Sweeping Advance With a Slow Model: an I1 model cannot possibly sweep an I7 opponent, yet if the I1 model is attached to a squad with a higher majority initiative, the unit will be able to sweep the opponent. Keep in mind that you're argument requires that the I1 model is personally performing the sweeping advance.

Again, the rules make a specific exemption here, by allowing you to just use the majority or the highest initiative for the entire unit. So for the purposes of the sweep, that I1 models counts as having the same initiative as the rest of the unit.

There is no such exemption made for Terminator armour. The Terminator can not sweep. There is no rule that allows a unit that contains some models who can not sweep to ignore that restriction and sweep anyway. So, a unit containing terminators can not sweep.

I still have not seen a single general rule indicating what you all are saying about all members of a unit needing to have an ability for the unit to have it.

There are specific examples for both sides, but no one has come up with the general rule that you need so badly.

insaniak wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:I have examples of situations where a unit does not have to be made up of members who can all take an action to perform a unit action.

I already pointed out that was possible... if a rule specifically allows it.

Is there some fundamental rule that I am missing? Why does the game system have to work this way and not the other way around even if no rule specifies which and the game functions just fine either way?

mikhaila wrote:Really? This is still going? I always love the threads where someone comes up with some new way to bend a rule and acts like their a prophet showing us all how to play the game.

If some part of the unit can't sweeping advance, the unit can't sweeping advance.

Now who's the prophet? At least I have made rules arguments. All you have is your majority, which means nothing. Get something to back your opinion instead of just bluntly stating it as a fact.

Okay, so WHY can't the unit do it even if some members of the unit cannot? Terminators cannot SA. But they aren't doing the SA. The captain attached to them is. The whole unit doesn't have to be. Sweeping advance isn't movement, it isn't capped at the slowest model's speed or anything. It is just an action that is done. It is supposed to represent movement, but rulewise it is not.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Okay, so WHY can't the unit do it even if some members of the unit cannot? Terminators cannot SA. But they aren't doing the SA. The captain attached to them is. The whole unit doesn't have to be. Sweeping advance isn't movement, it isn't capped at the slowest model's speed or anything. It is just an action that is done. It is supposed to represent movement, but rulewise it is not.

Because the Captain is part of the unit once he is attached. In close combat they act as two seperate units until the conclusion of the battle before morale rolls are made. At the point of SA taking place you would be attempting to SA for the unit as a whole. At that point the Terminators can not therefor the unit as a whole can not. There is no way to state that the SA movement is just being made by the one model because SA is made by the unit as a whole.

That is like saying you can attach a I7 model to a bunch of I2 models and so "oh btw I'm doing a sweeping advance, but those other guys aren't trying it just the one model is, so I get a I7+D6".

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Okay, so WHY can't the unit do it even if some members of the unit cannot? Terminators cannot SA. But they aren't doing the SA. The captain attached to them is. The whole unit doesn't have to be. Sweeping advance isn't movement, it isn't capped at the slowest model's speed or anything. It is just an action that is done. It is supposed to represent movement, but rulewise it is not.

Because models don't sweep, units do, even if it is a unit consisting of a single model.

If any part of the unit cannot sweep, then the rest of it cannot. This game relies on units doing everything as a whole, unless specified otherwise.

Exactly. The part that the OP is missing is that only UNITS make SA, not models.

Remember you must follow all the rules at all times. This means that while you have a permissive rule allowing you to perform an SA, you also have a prohibitive rule from terminator armor preventing the unit from performing the SA.

If the unit tries to make an SA with a model with power armor, the entire unit is counted as performing the SA. This action breaks the terminator no SA rule, and thus you are not permitted to perform this action.

This is cut an dry, because as lordhat pointed out, units make SA not models.

If any part of the unit cannot sweep, then the rest of it cannot. This game relies on units doing everything as a whole, unless specified otherwise.

That makes sense. Can you give me the page number for that just for reference?

That is like saying you can attach a I7 model to a bunch of I2 models and so "oh btw I'm doing a sweeping advance, but those other guys aren't trying it just the one model is, so I get a I7+D6".

As i understand it you CAN do that. Nowhere does it say you use the lowest initiative.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:As i understand it you CAN do that. Nowhere does it say you use the lowest initiative.

As you said yourself, show me a page number for that one. As far as I can read, UNITS sweeping advance, not selective models in a unit.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

If any part of the unit cannot sweep, then the rest of it cannot. This game relies on units doing everything as a whole, unless specified otherwise.

That makes sense. Can you give me the page number for that just for reference?

Sure. Here you go.

BGB Pg. 11 wrote: In his Turn a player may move any of his units...

BGB Pg. 15 wrote: During the Shooting phase, any and all of your units...

BGB Pg. 16 wrote: A firing unit can...

BGB Pg. 16 wrote: In their Shooting phase, units may run...

BGB Pg. 18 wrote: When a unit fires...

BGB Pg. 24 wrote: ...you can declare that the unit is going to ground....

BGB Pg. 33 wrote: <bullet point> Pick a unit.

BGB Pg. 34 wrote: Move assaulting units.

BGB Pg. 34 wrote: Assaulting units must now...

BGB Pg. 36 wrote: ...the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: When a unit falls back...

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: Both the unit falling back and the winning unit..

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: the falling back unit...

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: if a victorious unit...

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: (Lots more)

BGB Pg.... wrote: ad nauseum

Note that on all these pages, whenever individual models can perform different actions than their unit, it's specified.

That is like saying you can attach a I7 model to a bunch of I2 models and so "oh btw I'm doing a sweeping advance, but those other guys aren't trying it just the one model is, so I get a I7+D6".

As i understand it you CAN do that. Nowhere does it say you use the lowest initiative.

No, you can't.

BGB Pg. 40 wrote: In a unit with mixed Initiative characteristics, count the majority value, or the highest if there is no majority.

thebetter1 wrote:Is there some fundamental rule that I am missing? Why does the game system have to work this way and not the other way around even if no rule specifies which and the game functions just fine either way?

Not a fundamental rule, just logic.

I've already explained why it has to work this way. But here's another way to look at it:

The most basic, fundamental thing to keep in mind when trying to resolve whether or not you can do something is: Break No Rule.


In your shooting example, a model doesn't have a weapon, but the unit wants to shoot. Is any rule broken by the unit shooting? No, because the rules tell us that individual models within the unit can choose not to shoot.

A Sweeping Advance is performed by a unit. Not by individual models. That means that the entire unit has to do it if any of them do. To do otherwise would require a rule similar to that provided by the shooting rules, allowing individual models to choose not to sweep.

If the entire unit sweeps, that means that the terminator armour-equipped model sweeps as well. Has any rule been broken? Yes, clearly it has: Terminators can not perform a Sweeping Advance.

Therefore, this is not something that you can do. It breaks a rule, and is therefore an invalid action.

Dracos wrote:Exactly. The part that the OP is missing is that only UNITS make SA, not models.

Remember you must follow all the rules at all times. This means that while you have a permissive rule allowing you to perform an SA, you also have a prohibitive rule from terminator armor preventing the unit from performing the SA.

If the unit tries to make an SA with a model with power armor, the entire unit is counted as performing the SA. This action breaks the terminator no SA rule, and thus you are not permitted to perform this action.

This is cut an dry, because as lordhat pointed out, units make SA not models.

This is an extremely well put point. Thank you for not being a douche and actually having something to say.

This pretty much changes my mind about this. I guess it's not really a huge deal anyways, because like people stated before, I could just seperate them before the assualt, and get the best of both worlds.

Thanks guys, you can keep bickering if you want, but im pretty much done.

thebetter1 wrote:

Harkainos wrote:It doesn't specifically state you can completely ignore a rule given to them, so you can't. It is that simple.

It also doesn't say what the rule does when not all members of a unit have the rule, and it is not clearly implied.

Sweeping advance is NOT a USR, there is no 'confer this ability' at all when it comes to whether or not a unit (not models within the unit, but unit as a whole) can sweeping advance.

thebetter1 wrote:

Harkainos wrote:Of course you can always have house rules, but I don't think you will get many games in, especially with people who actually understand the rules.

By "people who actually understand the rules" do you really mean "people who played Space Marines in 4th edition?" Because that's the reason most people believe mixed units can't sweeping advance.

Most people 'believe' this because it is true in 5th edition. You are simply trying to add a house rule and claim it is true to RAW - it is not.

thebetter1 wrote:I have examples of situations where a unit does not have to be made up of members who can all take an action to perform a unit action.

1. Shooting: a unit with an unarmed member can still shoot, even though the unarmed model is clearly unable to shoot

2. Sweeping Advance With a Slow Model: an I1 model cannot possibly sweep an I7 opponent, yet if the I1 model is attached to a squad with a higher majority initiative, the unit will be able to sweep the opponent. Keep in mind that you're argument requires that the I1 model is personally performing the sweeping advance.

Based on these, does anyone have any actual arguments to show that all models in a unit need to have an ability for the unit to have that ability?

Both of your examples have to do with majority characteristics. The ability to sweeping advance is NOT a characteristic (in the sense that there is a stat for it). IF, for some reason, YOU (and your gaming group) were to create a house rule to allow this AND used your logic to do so... the Captain still may not sweeping advance, as a majority of the models may not.

Again, it is moot because it isn't a characteristic, nor a USR.

IIRC there is a rule (I don't have the book with me, I am at work) that states if one model may not do something the unit may not do something. That might only apply to shooting. Can someone post that?

General Fuzzum wrote:. There's a reason you use the highest Inish for SA. Its because you only need one person to do it.

Except that you do NOT always use the highest Initiative in a Sweeping Advance. You use the MAJORITY initiative, unless there is no majority. THEN you get to use the highest Initiative.

Back to the subject at hand.
Rules say termies may not sweep. Nothing in the IC rules say that they can sweep when attached to termies. No Sweep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thebetter1 wrote:I still have not seen a single general rule indicating what you all are saying about all members of a unit needing to have an ability for the unit to have it.

That's because we don't need it. YOU need to provide a rule that allows a unit containing termies to sweep. Otherwise, it can't happen. Just like a Broodlord and Stealers cannot use Fleet because one model doesn't have it, just like a unit of bikes with a walking character is limited to a 6" move, etc etc etc.

Bottom line. You're wrong, you know it, and you're blowing smoke trying to keep from having to admit it.

Lordhat wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

If any part of the unit cannot sweep, then the rest of it cannot. This game relies on units doing everything as a whole, unless specified otherwise.

That makes sense. Can you give me the page number for that just for reference?

Sure. Here you go.

BGB Pg. 11 wrote: In his Turn a player may move any of his units...

BGB Pg. 15 wrote: During the Shooting phase, any and all of your units...

BGB Pg. 16 wrote: A firing unit can...

BGB Pg. 16 wrote: In their Shooting phase, units may run...

BGB Pg. 18 wrote: When a unit fires...

BGB Pg. 24 wrote: ...you can declare that the unit is going to ground....

BGB Pg. 33 wrote: <bullet point> Pick a unit.

...

All of these examples are irrelevant. In each case where a unit may only do what all the models can do, this is explicitly stated. Listing off actions that a unit can do is meaningless.

Lordhat wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Okay, so WHY can't the unit do it even if some members of the unit cannot? Terminators cannot SA. But they aren't doing the SA. The captain attached to them is. The whole unit doesn't have to be. Sweeping advance isn't movement, it isn't capped at the slowest model's speed or anything. It is just an action that is done. It is supposed to represent movement, but rulewise it is not.

Because models don't sweep, units do, even if it is a unit consisting of a single model.

If any part of the unit cannot sweep, then the rest of it cannot. This game relies on units doing everything as a whole, unless specified otherwise.

So we can arbitrarily decide that units have this restriction, but it does not apply to the rest of the game? For example, an army is allowed to seize the initiative. There is not a single unit that has this ability. Are you saying you could not possibly seize, or are you just going to arbitrarily decide that army actions don't count?

In every case where a unit loses an ability if one model does not have it, it is explicitly stated.

Dracos wrote:Exactly. The part that the OP is missing is that only UNITS make SA, not models.

Remember you must follow all the rules at all times. This means that while you have a permissive rule allowing you to perform an SA, you also have a prohibitive rule from terminator armor preventing the unit from performing the SA.

If the unit tries to make an SA with a model with power armor, the entire unit is counted as performing the SA. This action breaks the terminator no SA rule, and thus you are not permitted to perform this action.

This is cut an dry, because as lordhat pointed out, units make SA not models.

If an army seizes the initiative, does this mean that all the units in your army seized the initiative?

I still have not seen one general rule about unit actions counting as all members of the unit performing that action. Everyone has dodged my inquiry by bluntly stating that I am wrong or by giving specific cases. I have specific cases too, but nobody is willing to accept those.

insaniak wrote:A Sweeping Advance is performed by a unit. Not by individual models. That means that the entire unit has to do it if any of them do. To do otherwise would require a rule similar to that provided by the shooting rules, allowing individual models to choose not to sweep.

If the entire unit sweeps, that means that the terminator armour-equipped model sweeps as well. Has any rule been broken? Yes, clearly it has: Terminators can not perform a Sweeping Advance.

Therefore, this is not something that you can do. It breaks a rule, and is therefore an invalid action.

Now you're being inconsistent. You just said that individual models do not sweep, and now you're saying that if a unit sweeps, the terminators in the unit sweep as well? Are terminators suddenly not models or something?

Harkainos wrote:IIRC there is a rule (I don't have the book with me, I am at work) that states if one model may not do something the unit may not do something.

Well, there isn't, which is where your argument falls apart.

don_mondo wrote:That's because we don't need it. YOU need to provide a rule that allows a unit containing termies to sweep. Otherwise, it can't happen. Just like a Broodlord and Stealers cannot use Fleet because one model doesn't have it, just like a unit of bikes with a walking character is limited to a 6" move, etc etc etc.

In these cases, the rule specifically says that the unit loses the ability if one model does not have it. I have special cases of my own that you guys have labeled as exceptions, yet you have exceptions as well.

The rule allowing a unit containing termies to sweep is the one allowing units in general to sweep.

thebetter1 wrote:

insaniak wrote:A Sweeping Advance is performed by a unit. Not by individual models. That means that the entire unit has to do it if any of them do. To do otherwise would require a rule similar to that provided by the shooting rules, allowing individual models to choose not to sweep.

If the entire unit sweeps, that means that the terminator armour-equipped model sweeps as well. Has any rule been broken? Yes, clearly it has: Terminators can not perform a Sweeping Advance.

Therefore, this is not something that you can do. It breaks a rule, and is therefore an invalid action.

Now you're being inconsistent. You just said that individual models do not sweep, and now you're saying that if a unit sweeps, the terminators in the unit sweep as well? Are terminators suddenly not models or something?

I was perhaps a little unclear. Although it was explained in the rest of the post, which I notice you haven't addressed.


What I meant was that the decision to sweep is made at the unit level. You don't choose to sweep with specific models. You choose to sweep with the unit.

What that means is that if the unit sweeps, all of the models in it sweep, because the rules don't give you the option to only sweep with some of them. The unit sweeps, or it doesn't.

And if the unit sweeps, and that means that all of the models in it sweep, then that means the terminator would also sweep as he is in the unit.

So, if the terminator is not allowed to sweep, and the unit sweeping means that the terminator sweeps, then the unit can not sweep... because to do so would require the terminator to do something that he is prohibited from doing.

:Sigh: I agree with Insaniak. Thebetter1, you're wrong.

As has been stated by insaniak and the others, the SA is made at the unit level and if a model in that unit can't do SA then forcing it to do so breaks the rules.

PG 40 BRB under Sweeping advances 2nd paragraph: "Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their Initiative value to the result."

It's very blatant that the SA roll is made as a unit. By being made as a unit any models unable to in the unit would be forced to which is not allowed.

insaniak wrote:What I meant was that the decision to sweep is made at the unit level. You don't choose to sweep with specific models. You choose to sweep with the unit.

What that means is that if the unit sweeps, all of the models in it sweep, because the rules don't give you the option to only sweep with some of them. The unit sweeps, or it doesn't.

Where is this "decision to sweep?" The rulebook doesn't give you a choice in the matter, just like you cannot choose to not use a power fist.

Semantic nitpicking doesn't change the point.

The unit sweeps. That means that all of the models in the unit sweep.

Page 40 in the assault on black reach mini rule book
" Disallowed sweeping advances:
Some troops , as detailed in their entries, are not allowed to make a sweeping advance- in such cases the enemies always manage to dis engage safely"

Any model wearing terminator armor cannot make a sweeping advance..

A 5 man TH/SS terminator squad led by vulkan hit a line of ork boys and kill somewhere around 19 of the 30 .. the orks lose combat, even tho vulkan isnt in terminator armor.. he cannot sweeping advance.. he is part of the terminator unit and would be breaking the terminator rules.
its simple RAW and RAI