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I was wondering if the races of 40k were to invade earth today how would our military hold up?
US army vs orks- As far as missiles tanks and weapons we got the orks beat. In hand to hand combat we're pretty much screwed. A bayonet attached to an M-16 might not do
much to a who mob of Orks. The Seals and the speical forces might be used for scouting missions killing Leader orks to bring their morale down.
....Vs. Tau-It could go 50-50. A fight with them might end in a draw forcing the tau to come to a peace agreement with earth.
....Vs 'Nids we will be deep in... We will end up using nuclear weapons and even if we somehow win we will have all of the fallout to worry about...
.....Vs. Dark eldar. They might not be strong enough for a full scale invasion but with so many wars going on they sneak in during the chaos and snatch up some people up to use as slaves.
.....Vs. Necrons It'll be a long hard fight but if all of the armies of the world come together we might beat them if they are a small force. If the force necrons are legion sized....

Versus the Imperium...

See this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218738.page

We are screwed against any of them. The fact alone that they can be in space means they have us beat. Orbital bombardment FTW, or in our case for the lose.Even though orks tech seems crappy, how whould we combat kustom force fields and Great gargants? There is also the numbers game, we have one world, they have thousands if not milliond each. Their armed forces whould outnumber our population. Most likely thing to happen is that they fire a salvo of missiles as they fly past, then watch the fireworks millions of killometres away from us.

I just read the first few pages of the anti-Imperium, and it falls basically into two groups.

-People going, 'OMG, terminators, orbital bombardments, and drop pods own us, the entire world would collapse so fast'.

-and the people who actually know something about weapons and scale saying, 'lolwut? There's only a 1000 marines in a chapter, and the world is a very big place. Not only that, our weapons aren't as bad as you think. Good luck marines, you'll need it'.

Versus any faction in 40K altogether, we lose. We're one world against many. However, if you phrase the question better, like Kid_Kyoto did in his thread, you should get a more coherent and worthwhile response.

When I started the Earth vs Imperium thread I deliberatly put us against just one Chapter because, yeah, all of the factions have effectively infinite resources to throw at Earth.

The big question is whether we're fighting to surrender or death and if they want to capture our world or kill it.

Anyone who can get into orbit could kill the world with some asteroids. Capturing it realtively intact is harder but a lot comes down to the fuzzy question of how long we would fight.

If an attacker nukes a few cities and makes it clear they can nuke the rest would we fight or surrender?

It would probably end organized resistance but partisans would keep up the fight. The invaders however could turn humans against each other with a collective punishment strategy. We will destroy 1 city for every ork/marine/guardsman etc killed. That would make the partisans unpopular real fast.

Basically all you need to know is a SM company in the 40k fluff is said to be able to bring a world to its knees, a world equipped with powerful las-weapons and 40k tech vehicles and technologies. A world with our technological level and population would therefore not stand a chance. We aren't super-special-awesome enough to somehow stand up against a force that an average imperial world that is more advanced than us crumbles to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:I just read the first few pages of the anti-Imperium, and it falls basically into two groups.

-People going, 'OMG, terminators, orbital bombardments, and drop pods own us, the entire world would collapse so fast'.

-and the people who actually know something about weapons and scale saying, 'lolwut? There's only a 1000 marines in a chapter, and the world is a very big place. Not only that, our weapons aren't as bad as you think. Good luck marines, you'll need it'.

Versus any faction in 40K altogether, we lose. We're one world against many. However, if you phrase the question better, like Kid_Kyoto did in his thread, you should get a more coherent and worthwhile response.

I like how you so cleverly imply that anyone who believes other than you is "incoherent" and not "worthwhile", liable to OMGWTFBBQ.
In any case, you are incorrect in your views, as I have stated previously in my post. Don't try to compare space marines to modern day, compare modern day to the imperial guard whose ass the SM kick on a daily basis. IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.

ph34r wrote:IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.

Except that our communication works, we don't win battles by sending troops wave after wave after wave to get killed and we outnumber them by big 'nuff number so that they eventually run out of ammo, so we can just wear them down.

Rewision wrote:

ph34r wrote:IG > us in equal numbers, SM > IG even when outnumbered greatly, therefore SM > us.

Except that our communication works, we don't win battles by sending troops wave after wave after wave to get killed and we outnumber them by big 'nuff number so that they eventually run out of ammo, so we can just wear them down.

Planetary communication on 40k planets works. Why would you think that it does not?
40k fluff is diverse enough to encompass IG armies other than the stereotypical valhallan style "human waves". Many IG regiments utilize tactics not so different than what we use today, they just have superior equipment and technology.

Judging from the speed at which the imperium reacts to threats it doesn't :l

I really think that the Space marines would win, but that's my opinion. Even if it was a world threat you have to factor in who would do what, and what we are equipped with. Considering that the imperial guard at least within the regiments they describe such as Catachans, they are on a death world and the population that does survive is far superior to us as is. As the way that I view it Space marines wouldn't just through the bulk at us in one spot, they would have a plan, and probably follow through with it.

Don't try to compare space marines to modern day

Errr......That's kind of the matchup here, not Guard vs Marines.

Let's put this in perspective. 1000 Marines. 6.5 billion people. Do you know how big this planet is? Big enough for 1000 marines to get lost on the surface quite easily. Orbital bombardment? They'd run out of torpedoes to drop before they hit anywhere near enough targets to cause the collapse of the USA. I could go into a tremendous amount of detail here, but I simply cannot be bothered. Modern warfare has grown so destructive that even a bunch of futuristic space marines wouldn't last long. It might take a bazooka hit to kill a marine, but there are a lot of bazookas in existence, and even more people to wield them. A lot more than a 1000.

And I don't understand what you mean by your 'previous post', as this is your first post in this thread.

Ketara wrote:

Don't try to compare space marines to modern day

Errr......That's kind of the matchup here, not Guard vs Marines.

Let's put this in perspective. 1000 Marines. 6.5 billion people. Do you know how big this planet is? Big enough for 1000 marines to get lost on the surface quite easily. Orbital bombardment? They'd run out of torpedoes to drop before they hit anywhere near enough targets to cause the collapse of the USA. I could go into a tremendous amount of detail here, but I simply cannot be bothered. Modern warfare has grown so destructive that even a bunch of futuristic space marines wouldn't last long. It might take a bazooka hit to kill a marine, but there are a lot of bazookas in existence, and even more people to wield them. A lot more than a 1000.

And I don't understand what you mean by your 'previous post', as this is your first post in this thread.

Again it all comes down to will to fight.

In WWII the Japanese were willing to launch suicide attacks to stop American soldiers but after two nuclear strikes they surrendered pretty peacefully.

A battle barge in orbit could burn a city a day until we surrender and we would have nothing they could not shoot down before it hit them. How long would the governments of Earth fight against a threat like that? how long would people put up with it? What if they just target and sink every tanker in the ocean, and sever every oil pipeline? How long can we fight with nothing but the fuel in our tanks?

Marines might hit the surface a few times in the beginning to kidnap world leaders like Obama, Hu Jintao, the Pope and Britney Spears but after that they can just bomb us from orbit will we give up.

So like I said, it would be an interesting fight, I think it would be a great BL novel if it was Marines vs a thinly-veiled 21st C Earth.

Me too. It would make a pretty cool story.

Ultimately though, I think that demonstration of power would quickly quell any single organized resistance.

The real rough stuff would come when it's time to decide who is put into power. Other countries wouldn't accept a world leader from ANY country. (So Obama as Planetary Governer is a bit off). And if an off-world planetary governer was put in power, then the trouble starts as the marines that were keeping the populace in check leave.

Suddenly, the guardsmen that are garrisoning the world don't look too scary.

BTW, 40kenthusiast had it right.

Sink every tanker? I have a feeling they'd run out of ammunition first. And how do they know which ships are carrying petroleum products? And if they waste all their time trying to pick off boats, how on earth would they have time to attack cities? Not to mention the fact that you're assuming they'd immediately jump to the conclusion we were so vulnerable to a lack of petroleum by-products. Ignoring the fact that we'd still have enough petroleum reserves built up in our various countries to get us by for at least a month. And assuming they're only going after nations incapable of transporting petroleum products overland. And ignoring the fact that from orbit they'd only be capable of targeting a very small portion of the worlds surface at any one time.

It's very easy to just say that they'd be able to wipe out our oil supply, but as you can see, there are a myriad of problems with just that one task.

Not to mention the continuous referral to an 'us'. The world is not under a collective government. Are they planning on making overtures to over a hundred countries at once? Are they intending on seriously attempting to subjugate over a hundred countries with only a 1000 men? How are the going to get them everywhere? The worlds a very big place. Even if you only deploy them in squads, that means you have to run a maximum of about 100 ground missions at a time. But if you split your men up to that degree, what happens if they run into tanks? If you intend to be deploying and retrieving them all simultaneously, where is your transport capability coming from? A handful of thunderhawks isn't big enough to cover 100 teams spread across the globe. Not to mention the risk of thunderhawks getting shot down and rendering you incapable of shifting your men where you want them to be. Teleportation? Not only do you run the risk of sticking your men halfway through a rock, that means you limit yourself to the equipment that is man-portable. No tanks.

Kidnapping world leaders? How will they locate them? I know that a good portion of them will be hiding in top secret bunkers if there was an alien offensive. And how does kidnapping a leader indicate the subjugation of a country? Isn't it more likely the next in command will just take over?

Orbital Bombardment? Sure. How many torpedos did you bring? There are a lot of cities in the world, and you're not going to be restocking missiles any time soon in this galaxy. What about return fire? You assume we don't have the capability to swat a ship out of orbit, but how long will it be before we lack that capability? How long before the various militaries stick as many nukes on missiles as they can and shoot them in endless waves? If you're spending your time swatting enemy missiles out of the air, how are you spending your time blowing up cities?

At the end of the day, no matter how superhuman you are, it comes down to logistics. 1000 men do not have the logistics to conquer the world.

Facing an utterly alien foe would be different. Even with massive city-wide destruction, humanity may not be so quick to surrender becuase it's simply not an option. (I'm sure a country or two would try, and the rest of the world would see that whether or not we wave a white flag, the Ork, 'Nids and some Eldar want us dead.)

What would be REALLY interesting is Chaos coming to a 2k world. They're definitely evil looking, so many (all) religeous cultures would resist) but they're also human. (so death is not definite) And besides, some people would like what Chaos has to offer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ketara: You're assuming that the Marines NEED to spread thier forces. If they were to devastate each country (USA first, cos that would mean that the rest of the world is in the s****er) then wouldn't it be much more likely that the other countries start listening to the SM demands?

And also, you talk of the world not being a collective government as if that's a good thing. It's not. That means pretty much that every country is on it's own. It means that the world will already be divided as to whether or not seccede to the Space Marine demands. It means no co-ordination of missle strike. It means that each country will be own it's own, becuase the others can't afford to risk leaving thier own areas undefended when the foe can strike so quickly.

If the destruction of the planet wasnt a question, they might just launch the Life Eater. I mean killing a planet dosnt always seem like a big deal to the mariens. If taking it was needed, we be hard pressed but nocking of thier comanders could be the key. A few sniper rounds through the eye piece tends to kill stuff. And the amount of ammo a single chapter would need for one egagment that big would be emmense and they have no way to restock.

Exterminatus is only done in the most extreme of circumstances. A mere rebel world would not advotcate the use of such a weapon.

Kinda like killing a fly with a Rocket-Propelled chainsaw.

You say every country will be on its own. That means that there can be no collective surrender. It means that if one country goes under, others keep on fighting. It means you don't have to abduct one leader, you have to abduct a hundred. It means you're not just fighting one military, but many. It means that when negotiations start initially, you have to learn the languages of every single people. It means that when it comes to intelligence, there isn't just set of codes you have to crack, it's hundreds.

Ever heard of Nato? I don't think every country is on its own. And I have a feeling if aliens started shooting missiles out of space, the russians wouldn't just sit back and take it.

You speak of leaving areas undefended, but how many places can the marines strike? The Marines have no ability as an occupation force, and no ability to force through a continuous peace. The second they leave a country that says they've surrendered, that country can immediately go back to war withthem. They have no intelligance network, so they have no idea what the industrial capabilities of a nation are.

If we were talking about a crusade, it would be fine. But 1000 marines lacks the logistical capability to conduct an offensive against an entire planet. All it takes is 1000 guys with bazookas getting lucky. Every marine taken down chips away at their ability to make an offensive. Every bolter shell shot by them cannot be replaced. Eventually, they'd be down to their bare fists.

I am assumign here we are speaking of subjugation and occupation. Orbital bombardment has some destructive possibilities. But that is not occupation and subjugation, that's just destruction. One space ship would not be capable of bringing a planet to it's knees, and gives them no ability to enforce their will if the population refuses to yield.

There was an excellent mock reality series by an author called Harry Turtledove, which involved a much more technologically advanced species attempting to conquer earth. It's an excellent example here I feel. I would recommend reading them, as they are very good novels .

You're assuming that every goverment would want to fight to the end. That's just silly. A populace would swiftly surrender when they see a city or two annihlated. Why do you feel that this would not happen? They'd be more willing to surrender to Space Marines than orks, for example.

BTW, marines wouldn't bother with occupation. A fleet of zealots, magistrates and other Imperial officials (as well as IG) would be in the wings waiting for the go sign.

The marines job is just to subue and pacify. When one ignores the damage partisans would do on the occupiers (not Space Marines) then the damage is minimal.

Also, ammo is not an issue. The marines can wait. They've fought 100-year campaigns before. They have all the time in the world. They can wait for the steady stream of supplies, and probably new SM initiates. We aren't going anywhere. (Not that the campaign would take that long. I imagine it would be a matter of months if not weeks before our capitulation).

We're talking about a single space marine chapter here. With whatever they can bring with them. So no new supplies and initiates. What gets expended, stays expended. What gets killed, stays dead. And to be perfectly honest, even if you include a spaceship of pen-pushers, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long in a country that doesn't want them there. They're not soldiers after all.

I'm not assuming every government would fight to the end. I'm pretty sure Robert Mugabe would quickly capitulate. But any nation with any kind of offensive capability would not go under so quickly.

Marines can subdue. They cannot pacify. And in this hypothetical situation, they only control the ground they stand on.

Okay. Indianopolis gets nuked from orbit by aliens demanding the immediate surrender of the US. Do they surrender? I highly highly doubt it. I have a feeling the immediate response would be 50 odd ICBM's heading straight for the alien spaceship.

Again I repeat: 1000 Marines cannot occupy a planet. It is too big. It is logistically impossible. They do not have enough men. They do not have enough supplies. And to be perfectly frank, I doubt the Space Marine's ship is capable of warding off the multiple nuclear attacks it would shortly be suffering. Some perhaps. But if 500 missiles come roaring at you, you're pretty screwed. Not to mention all the new anti-missile defence missiles that have been developed recently, such as the Russian RS-24.

Ketara wrote:We're talking about a single space marine chapter here. With whatever they can bring with them. So no new supplies and initiates. What gets expended, stays expended. What gets killed, stays dead. And to be perfectly honest, even if you include a spaceship of pen-pushers, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long in a country that doesn't want them there. They're not soldiers after all.

Why are you assuming that the Marines are without support?
It's not like their supply lines have been cut by the ninja-astronuats that are floating around the 2k world.

I'm not assuming every government would fight to the end. I'm pretty sure Robert Mugabe would quickly capitulate. But any nation with any kind of offensive capability would not go under so quickly.

Marines can subdue. They cannot pacify. And in this hypothetical situation, they only control the ground they stand on.

Marines, as a fighting force, are not designed to pacify. They destroy the heaviest resistance before moving on. Letting the Guard mop up after them. So why would the US or Nato not surrender if given the option.

Okay. Indianopolis gets nuked from orbit by superhumans demanding the immediate surrender of the US. Do they surrender? Straight away. They don't want to die. They might try luanching 50 odd ICBM's heading straight for the superhuman spaceship first though. Which would do nothing. And then the Space Marines just blow up another planet.

Fixed that for you.

Remember, the Marines can pick and choose their battle. They don't have to fight anywhere they don't want to.

Also, the sattelites and everything up in the sky would simply mean open range shooting for the Stike Cruisers (Yes there ARE more than one of these in a single chapter). You can't rely on those.

Serious question: How would the orbiting ship be targetted? Can nukes even reach into space like that with much accuracy?

Why do these 40k vs Whatever the hell threads keep popping up?

Anywhoo. 1,000 marines CAN occupy a planet. If an ENTIRE CHAPTER is 1,000 marines strong, why is it that those with Homeworlds can still occupy them whilst continuing their assaults.

Yes, we would not go down right away. But to paint it as some kind of vainglorious fight to the last is stupid. We're screwed. Period.

And why can't they bring anything? Even if they couldn't, they'd still have the 10th company initiates.

Ok, Indianapolis gets nuked. At the same time the ENTIRE CHAPTER FLEET (Because we are talking an entire chapter, fleets and all) is nuking other key locations whilst Battle brothers are deployed down to capture and kill all resistance.

If marines could not pacify, then why the hell was the Great Crusade so successful, when it did just that? Sure, Whorus betrays Emprah and yadda yadda, but he succeeded in creating a lasting Imperium, which required the Space Marines to actively subdue AND pacify.

Think of it this way: the Ultramarines First Company fended off a ENTIRE HIVE FLEET.

That's only 100 Marines.


Plus we don't even have enough guns to arm half the world, let alone arm them with something that can actually penetrate POWER ARMOR.

Not to even mention Terminator Armor which can shrug off a MISSILE

The Earth= Gone.

Billions of worlds and things that can kill us vs. one world with 6 billion people total, the number of able-body combatants much less than that, and among those some hate each other, and don't fight for the same views and morals.

The Earth= Gone.

@Ketara: Against a completely alien foe that only wants our annihilation, it may be different.

But against a human-like foe who is offering terms (not that unreasonable terms either) people are more likely to surrender.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Earth= Gone.

Billions of worlds and things that can kill us vs. one world with 6 billion people total, the number of able-body combatants much less than that, and among those some hate each other, and don't fight for the same views and morals.

The Earth= Gone.

Hell, the space marines almost don 't have to do anything, as the governments and people will divide, quarrel and war among them selves just from the first wide scale undeniable appearance of the imperial fleet in orbit. Think of the U.S. and the world's reaction to 9/11 or any other horrible event with a massive loss of life and multiple that by a couple fold.

ketara, as for the whole sinking tankers, they have insanely advanced scanning tech that could easily pinpoint in real time the loction of every ship on the ocean ... and they dont need to waste torpedos when they can just use the lances, i.e those insanely huge pewpew lasers powered by the fusion reaction that never dies out in the ships plasma core?

... we could be undone almost instantly, not to mention launch all those nukes .... 40k ships have that crazy thing known as shielding tech, and i doubt that they wouldnt be able to handle some tiny atomic weapon from 38000 years ago lol .... afterall they keep a sustained reaction i guarantee is MUCH mroe powerful than anything we could launch at them inside of their ship

On the other hand...we do have Chuck Norris.

If the marines had no orbital support or ships then I would just nuke them.

Do we look like we have orbital support or ships???