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This isn't a huge break from the established rules, but personally I feel that Dakka Preds would be far more useful if you could take them in squadrons.

I never use Predators as is, aside from the Las-sponson, AC turret preds, because 8 shots just ain't that great. Sure, it's cheap, but it's hard to work that into a viable list. If you could run a squadron of 3, though, that's great anti-horde.

From a fluff standpoint, it makes sense. Predators are described as the most numerous vehicles in the Marine arsenal.


Points values remain as is, and added under the Predator entry, "Predator squadrons contain 1-3 Predators".

How about you just field them close to each other?

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:How about you just field them close to each other?

3 Heavy Support slots, 3 killpoints, no sense.

You can field most tanks in the game in squadrons. Guard field their main battle tanks in squadrons. There's no reason that Predators should not be taken as squadrons.

I think predators need to be given some way of being more worth while. As it is there is little reason to take them. Squadroning them at least gives you the three for one FOC possibility. When you look at what you end up with, whether its a dakka-pred or an annihilator you're looking at 3 autocannons, 6 heavy bolters or 3 TL-las and 6 lascannons. Compared to what some armies are fielding its not that bad.

aka_mythos wrote:I think predators need to be given some way of being more worth while. As it is there is little reason to take them. Squadroning them at least gives you the three for one FOC possibility. When you look at what you end up with, whether its a dakka-pred or an annihilator you're looking at 3 autocannons, 6 heavy bolters or 3 TL-las and 6 lascannons. Compared to what some armies are fielding its not that bad.

Whoa man, mark the day as a special occasion. Someone finally agrees with someone else's proposed rules on Dakka.

I think it sounds like a good idea. Mind you, I'm also in favour of Dreadnought squads, and configuring the army lists so that they reflect the detachments available to Epic players.

I can agree with Predator Squadrons. They're supposed to be light-ish battle tanks, which historically work in groups to defeat their targets. From a fluff standpoint, I don't really know.

SM don't have the same armor support that the guard does. This would make little sense fluff-wise.

Space marines definitely need their predators in squadrons. If the tyranids are getting carnifexes in squads, then your typical SM player is going to need more heavy support.

I'm all for pretty much all the tanks and walker types for all armies getting squadron options the same way the guard did.

Jack

ph34r wrote:SM don't have the same armor support that the guard does. This would make little sense fluff-wise.

No one said that there'd be huge amounts of predators fielded just because of this rule. I'm assuming their'd be some kind of point increase with this that would make it less tempting to take 9 Dakka Preds with you onto the field....right?

I disagree with squadrons. These are meant to be predatory vehicles, there up the usefulness in some way.

No where in the fluff does it imply that Predators are supposed to be predatory...it's just a name. They're fire support and that's it ._.

I guess the best way to do this would be to somehow limit a player to only take one Predator squadron to avoid two things. A chapter only has 20 or so fluff wise. Devoting a large number of predators - even 6 is more than a quarter of their force- seems rather unlikely when there are other means available. The second thing is to avoid pred spam as previously mentioned? Honestly, I don't even know how effective that would be.

Also which "there" are you using? The one that refers to a place?

Its not a big deal to have Predator squadrons. Plenty of predators hunt in packs, so not really a valid fluff objection there. 9 Dakka preds still costs 765 points which is a considerable chunk of any army (i.e. 3 LRs worth of points). Its a good proposed rule that seems to reflect the current trend and doesn't really require any limitations.

Is there currently a restriction on the number of Land Raiders you can take in a normal list? If Predators were to be moved into squadrons, I would have to say Land Raiders should be restricted to one per army. In general, Land Raiders should be one per army.

No restrictions on the number of Land Raiders per Army. If you have enough points, you could theoretically have 8 on the board in a single FOC (3 Heavy, 3 Elite dedicated transports, 2 HQ dedicated transports).

And why no restriction on their number? Fluff-wise, they're not a dime a dozen, table-wise they're devastating. One is usually enough for a common game, and if you want to go more, flex the rules for a friendly game. But I think just about everyone who isn't a Spaz Mariner is tired of the Land Raider Rush and Shuffle.

*shrug* I didn't write the codex. But I do agree that limits on LR are far more logical than limits on Predators. Then again, I never advocated limits on either so I'm off the hook here.

Uh, how are you fitting eight Land Raiders in a 5th edition Space Marine list? In particular, how are you fitting three in Elites and two in HQ?

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, how are you fitting eight Land Raiders in a 5th edition Space Marine list? In particular, how are you fitting three in Elites and two in HQ?

The key phrase was "if you have the points." I don't have the codex on hand, but IIRC each terminator squad can have a dedicated LR transport and you could buy a Chapter Master with Honor Guard and a Captain with Command Squad, both of whom can by a dedicated LR transport. That would give you 5 right there, plus 3 more in heavy support.

According to my codex neither Command Squads nor Honour Guard have the option of taking a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. Likewise, only one Terminator Squad and only one Terminator Assault Squad in the army may have a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.

That means you get 0 Land Raiders in HQ, maximum 2 Land Raiders in Elite slots, and 3 Land Raiders in Heavy Support slots, for a total of 5.

I stand corrected. Was going completely off memory. Thank you.

I'd be for it.
It might give reason to use Preds stock...something I've always wanted to do.

With the Black Templar you can increase the number up to 14 LR's i believe

2 for HQ's as long as they are leading a command squad

3 for your elites (terminators or techmarines)

6 for your troops

3 for heavy support

5 (and definitely 14) LRs most likely means you're in an Apocalypse game in which case you can utilize the Predator Assassin Squadron data sheet.
It comes with some bonuses and limitations and costs additional points but in either case, there's your Predator squadron.

I think it's really cool how they made the Predator cheaper than it ever was before, but somehow that's just not enough.
Sure, that squadron idea of yours is great; but still, it really lacks both firepower and armour. 13 is almost ridiculous - some other race's transports have more. Though being cheaper as many other battle tanks predators need an awful amount of points to make them at least a little more effective.
So... what about a 3'' template? A battlecannon would be way too much, since Space Marines prefer more or less mobile warfare, but that autocannon should at least either have more shots or the rending special rule.

...

Please don't yell at me for my horrible english.
Not too hard at least. ^^

There's no fluff reason that you shouldn't be allowed to squadron them. Chapters only have about 5 Land Raiders in the chapter inventory, so to see more than one in 1,500 points doesn't really make sense fluff wise. But who cares anyway? It's a game.

I don't think it would be necessary to change the points. Look at Land Speeders. MM/HF Speeders are 70 points. Squadroning them doesn't change the point value, nor should it.

A lot of things can glance armor 13 pretty easily. I think the immobilized = destroyed result would essentially, as per squadron rules anyway, cancel out any superadvantage you might think you'd get by fielding 3 dakka preds.

Squig_herder wrote:I disagree with squadrons. These are meant to be predatory vehicles, there up the usefulness in some way.

So are Vindicators only meant to be vehicles that vindicate the player that uses them?

Yeah I think this is a brilliant idea and was thinking the same myself. They are supposed to be the most common SM battle tank.

And I agree with others making them squadroned would give advantages but the immobilised=wrecked result compensates for that.

Even at 85 points I think the Dakka pred isn't that great as for anti-infantry the Whirlwind is better at the same points. The TL Lascannon needs to stop costing 60 points! It means the only useful pred at the moment is the autocannon-las sponson one as the annihilator is just massively over priced (same price as a Hammerhead with DPs) whilst the Dakka one isn't a great use of points for anti-infantry.

However being able to take 3 in a squad for 85 points each would be very appealing. In the squad rules I'd even consider just taking Vanilla preds. So yes ithink they should do this and drop the TL Lascannon to +20-25 points.

Other then a slight redo of some point costs I personally feel that the pred is fine the way it is. I don't see a point in makeing tank heavy Spam Marines. They are not supposed to be THE treadhead army in the game....