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Many companies now produce very good quality minis that can be used to make fantasy armies characters which are of superior sculpt and lower price than the current market leader.

Many companies now produce multipart plastics for historical armies, of a fine detail and very reasonable price, these are about half the price of, for example, a GW boxed set.

So, my request is this.

Multipart 28mm heroic scale fantasy (and perhaps sci-fi) miniatures in boxed sets of units at the same reasonable price and good standard of sculpting that we are seeing for the historical boxes. Orcs, goblins, skeletons, all three varieties of standard generic elves, dwarves, northern barbarians, reptile men, wererats, ogres, goatmen.

If the quality of sculpt is there, options for parts and pose in the box and most importantly the price is there, they will sell. The market is ready for them.

OK, I'll let them know.

lord_blackfang wrote:OK, I'll let them know.

No need Blacky you wee scamp!
Since the rest of the gaming world does not hold with the flat-earth 'Internet is the work of the devil' mentality held by Games Workshop, many of them will read this.

Take a look on the Liberty and Union League stuff on Wargames Factory Forums. If you click my link you can encourage them to make loads of fantasy models. The advantage is its not a money down system until their about to produce the moulds. Their Saxons and Vikings will be perfect. To be honest between the Warlord Games ECW stuff and the War of the Roses stuff from the Perrys I'll soon be getting an Empire army. Well when the 24th Islandlwanda and the Beastmen are done anyway!

I would say Mantic games is making a great start. Their plastic Elves aren't half bad, and their forthcoming skellingtons/undead range is very promising. They've got Dwarves coming nexty year too. I suspect if these do well then we could see goblins, orcs, nasty elves, and even larger monsters and the like before too long.

Reaper also do a range of plastic fantasy prepaints (which can be painted over, and in anycase are just recasts of metals) for many rank-and-file generic fantasy races (skellingtons, goblins, ogres and the like).

So it looks like there will be increasing competition in the generic fantasy market next year.

On the sci-fi side though, things still look a little weak. GW seems to have a stranglehold on plastic vehicles, and with their iconic space marine design, have a basic look and feel of a main troop type that looks pretty uncopyable.

em-4miniatures have a few plastic "powered armour" troops that are a bit meh, and some rather better plastic sci-fi human troopers, but the range isn't huge and I am unaware of any plastic alien races produced by anyone.

This does perplex me, as clearly 40k is a far more popular game than WFB, so one would have thought that on the face of it, it would have produced lower hanging fruit for competitors to pick. However, I would say that perhaps GW's 40k races are less generic than their fantasy races and therefore are a bit less easy to substitute by other companies.

That said, I would think there is definitely a market for "evil space elves" and maybe "blue fish-faced aliens". I'd say the mega-bucks are more in the order of plastic space-tanks though. Although designing and tooling something like that is a lot more specialised than for human-sized models I guess. Still, if someone had connections at Airfix or Humbrol or something, maybe there'd be an opening? I recall Airfix used to have a game called "Robogear" out that is now defunct (didn't survive the buy-out of the company by Hornby), based on sci-fi combat. Their models were rather less well sculpted and toy-like than GW's but overall it wasn't a bad attempt.

On the other hand, one has to consider the people who buy the bulk of 40k stuff. I (perhaps unfairly) consider 40k fans to be more indoctrinated into the "GW first and only" mentality, than WFB players (who tend, in my experience, to be a bit older and more worldly-wise). Perhaps the market isn't there yet for a rival to 40k models?

Mantic is making Elves and Undead.




Perry Brothers have War of the Roses aka Brittonians


Wargames Factory make Vikings/Saxons which would make great rank and file for Empire


All of these figures have come out in the past 6 months. I can't wait to see what else comes out in 2010. Mantic is just coming to market - who knows what else they will come out with. I believe the Perry Bros are making cavalry to go with the WotR foot solders. Wargames Factory is releasing plastic kits about every 2 months - maybe one of their kits will finally be the plastic future solders they have been working on for the past year.

I was really hopeful about Mantic, but a post here put a Mantic elf next to a GW one, Mantic's seemed like it was a 25mm next to the 28mm 'heroic' GW elf.

Mantic's elves are a tad brittle, just like real elves!

Indeed, I'm suggesting that manufacturing rank and file multipart plastics for the various generic fantasy armies could be even more financially viable if the models were made to the current 28mm heroic scale which dominates the market. People with existing armies/models from other ranges could switch manufacturers with relative ease.

Yeah, the Mantic elves are more the scale of the LotR models than the WFB ones. It isn't necessarily a problem if you build a whole army (or even a whole unit) of them, but mixing and matching isn't probably that good an idea.

I also, as it happens aren't that keen on the sculpting of the Mantic elves, althought the forthcoming undead look nice enough. Wargames Factory I am afraid are pretty poor. They're cheap, which is about all that can be said for them. Their CAD system doesn't seem to be producing as good results as traditional sculpting does for a similar end-price for the likes of the Perry brothers.

IMHO the Perry models at the moment are by far the best quality plastics out there (even better than Warlord), and at a price that makes GW look silly.

Still, its early doors for non-GW plastics. The Perry's have an obvious head start. I'm hopeful others will catch up in time.

Warlord plastic cavalry:

Now if gamezone miniatures made plastics to the same quality as their metals...

Osbad wrote:
Wargames Factory I am afraid are pretty poor. They're cheap, which is about all that can be said for them. Their CAD system doesn't seem to be producing as good results as traditional sculpting does for a similar end-price for the likes of the Perry brothers.

I would disagree with your assessment of Wargames Factory models. Their current releases such as the Ancient Germans (which I own) and the Vikings (which I have only see online) are sculpted with sharp detail. While they might not bet the equal of the Perry Bros models (not many models are), they are certainly worth using in an army.

GW would go bust......

All in good time, as the cost of tech comes down.

If Pig Iron made plastics, I'd buy about 100 in no time flat.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I was really hopeful about Mantic, but a post here put a Mantic elf next to a GW one, Mantic's seemed like it was a 25mm next to the 28mm 'heroic' GW elf.

That is just a good reason to not buy any GW figures.


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I compared a GW IG figure with a Tamiya 1/35 scale figure.

The GW figure has the same size head, thicker arms, bigger hands and feet, a torso the same thickness but less long, and shorter legs.

28mm is 1/56 scale.

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I was really hopeful about Mantic, but a post here put a Mantic elf next to a GW one, Mantic's seemed like it was a 25mm next to the 28mm 'heroic' GW elf.

That is just a good reason to not buy any GW figures.
I compared a GW IG figure with a Tamiya 1/35 scale figure.

The GW figure has the same size head, thicker arms, bigger hands and feet, a torso the same thickness but less long, and shorter legs.

28mm is 1/56 scale.

Yep, that's the 'heroic' bit. I really don't object to the lack of realism there, the figures look good to my eyes. As to more realistic 25mm, I keep looking up historicals and being disgusted at the skinny bastard greyhounds they call horses on many of the sites (not all but several).

I'm saying that if a company did use the same scale as GW and produced good kits at a more reasonable price, they'd make a killing.

As has been said, while Mantic seems to be the only one doing fantasy races, there's lots of stuff out there--from the perrys, Warlord and Wargames Factory--that is very usable in a fantasy setting. Heck, I'm sure you could even find a use for the Victrix Napoleonic figures if you put your mind to it...

Throw in the various conversion kits being put out with fantasy/sci-fi race heads, weapons packs etc. from different companies, you should be able to do sci-fi or fantasy with some of these kits already. Napoleonic ogres, for example. Or Space Vikings with power mauls and hammers. ACW skirmishers with ray guns. Really, the sky's the limit...

Some over at Troll Forged Miniatures are working on a multi part evil dwarf kit. Others were also enthusiastic about doing some fantasy stuff, but I don't know how/what/when that will come. January/February will bring various multipart sci fi kits though. Plastic is also being worked on!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Indeed, I'm suggesting that manufacturing rank and file multipart plastics for the various generic fantasy armies could be even more financially viable if the models were made to the current 28mm heroic scale which dominates the market. People with existing armies/models from other ranges could switch manufacturers with relative ease.

Depends what those companies actually want. For example, do the sculptors want to make something that looks good to them as a real 28mm scale figure, or simply mimic the Games Workshop aesthetic. Success might not even enter into it. Some people, I'm sure, would rather be independent beggars than successful parasites.

Thanks Agamemnon, perhaps that's why we see the high fatality rate amongst new mini companies, vaulted pride and unwillingness to cater to their intended market.

Very useful post there.

It's also a branding thing. Rackham dwarves look like Rackham dwarves and Privateer dwarves look like Privateer dwarves. For fantasy miniatures many companies are trying to establish a "brand" of their own to drum up interest. For example, the unique aesthetics of Malifaux and Hell Dorado are the only thing those games took off. If they'd looked exactly like Mordheim, I believe nobody would've bothered (especially since the rules are in French, it was initial visual interest that made people interested enough to make translations happen).

Also, "their intended market" is a bit vague. I think you're using that term to mean "GW gamers looking for proxies". That demographic might not be all that large or stable, in the end. From what I've seen, the younger gamers are fiercely GW partisan, I've been cussed out and laughed at by teenagers for daring to use miniatures older than they are, and those were still GW minis, mark you. Also, in order to function as proxies, said third-party miniatures would have to appeal to a very broad segment of an already small demographic, otherwise you'll end up with a product only a handful of people would want (say, if there happened to be a IG counts-as range of Prussian stormtroopers).

The ideal proxies, appealing to the broadest possible consumer base, would be completely generic, which would hurt the manufacturer in the sense that said figures would vanish into the crowd of GW stuff around them, figuratively and literally. This might or might not work, nobody's tried it in recent memory, but it's obvious companies like Mantic are interested in testing a different approach, namely creating their own aesthetics from the ground up. When you see a Mantic elf, it is obviously a Mantic elf, just like the case might be for a Mid-Nor dwarf or a Death Korps guardsmen.

Historical miniatures manufacturers work using slightly different parameters, of course, but I'll get back to those later if need be, for now I think they're off-topic slightly.

Own brand is good. Individual and new is good. I'm really all for our hobby being enriched by new ranges.

What I'm saying in this thread is that we see excellent sculpting from the up and coming companies, we see that plastics can be profitably produced at a much cheaper rate than GW produces them for... So combining those two facts can give us minis that are better than GWs for cheaper.

In any thread here showing a new miniature range, you can guarantee that many of the posts will be 'cool, I can use these for X army or as proxies for Y'.

It's a viable market.

As an aside, whilst I loved those Rackham dwarves, especially the Tir Na Bor evil ones, I'd point out that they aren't for sale any more, due to their financial failure. Helldorado is in a state of torpor (or may have been closed altogether) and their minis were also works of art. The market is indeed limited and very wildly differing and new game systems are going to have a real fight to survive.
That's why producing plastic rank and file that would indeed serve as proxies would make some folks very rich relatively quickly.

Rackham of course committed something of a financial suicide in the eyes of its gamers, but that wasn't because its models were not GW compatible and in a scale completely their own, but because they leaped headlong into the pre-painted miniatures bandwagon. Hell Dorado's fate is a bit less straightforward. They were doing just fine when their publisher decided to kill the game, leading to its sale to Americans, a development that, it's true, has not showed any signs of being a good thing so far.

I'm curious as to how common proxy miniatures are. I cannot play anywhere except a GW store so naturally my perspective is skewed (though I still own things like Ironclad Miniatures steam-tanks). I too see those same messages, but can't help wondering how few of them actually result in any purchases.

Well I just forked out cash for the Raging Heroes here on this site for my 2010 warriors of chaos army. I'll be buying the chaos characters from Avatars of War for it as well.

I've always played at friends houses or clubs, never had a game other than a demo game (where the silly twit lost to me on purpose) in a GW store, I frankly feel irritable stood in a store full of screaming kids, I get told off for swearing as well.

Why don't you start a club Aga? Proactive action etc?


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Also, I'm fairly certain Rackham converted to prepainted plastics to alter their fortunes as they were financially sinking making amazing looking metal minis...

I think its a real shame west wind don't widen their ranges and aim to sell their models as complete armies. They have some really nice models in the Dwarf wars range. Especially their evil dwarfs. I don't know about scale but they look close to normal dwarf size. If they made plastic models they would make a good army.

Osbad wrote: I (perhaps unfairly) consider 40k fans to be more indoctrinated into the "GW first and only" mentality, than WFB players (who tend, in my experience, to be a bit older and more worldly-wise). Perhaps the market isn't there yet for a rival to 40k models?

i think you mostly think that because 40k is more popular (and has the most little kids who are fine with not caring for other models) than WFB also i buy gw models because the only other place to game charges you to use their boards (which aren't great tbh) so i play in gw where the boards are better which leads to me not being able to use non-gw models because of the whole 'you can't use non-gw models in our stores' rule gw has.

Wouldn't tooling and manufacture costs put most guys off creating a line of generic heroic scale minis? especially when the market is so narrow (users needing proxies for one game?). What about marketing and support?

As Agamemnon has said do the majority of people who take an interest in proxy model actually make a purchase?

Mean Green, do you really 'need' heroic scale? Isn't that just another of GW's insidious tendrils probing at your psyche?

Mr. Burning wrote:Wouldn't tooling and manufacture costs put most guys off creating a line of generic heroic scale minis? especially when the market is so narrow (users needing proxies for one game?). What about marketing and support?

As Agamemnon has said do the majority of people who take an interest in proxy model actually make a purchase?

Mean Green, do you really 'need' heroic scale? Isn't that just another of GW's insidious tendrils probing at your psyche?

You're blurring proxy with temporary proxy.

We are talking about making armies for gaming using other ranges.

I 'need' heroic scale in order to play against my friends, who all have GW armies.

The only things that probe my psyche are beer, The Soon to Be Mrs Stompa and occasional musings about Natalie Portman and Keira Knightley exploring their feelings for each other in a paddling pool full of tiramisu...

Agamemnon2 wrote:Rackham of course committed something of a financial suicide in the eyes of its gamers, but that wasn't because its models were not GW compatible and in a scale completely their own, but because they leaped headlong into the pre-painted miniatures bandwagon. Hell Dorado's fate is a bit less straightforward. They were doing just fine when their publisher decided to kill the game, leading to its sale to Americans, a development that, it's true, has not showed any signs of being a good thing so far.

I'm curious as to how common proxy miniatures are. I cannot play anywhere except a GW store so naturally my perspective is skewed (though I still own things like Ironclad Miniatures steam-tanks). I too see those same messages, but can't help wondering how few of them actually result in any purchases.

Any Idea on who is picking up these game systems?