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MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Wouldn't tooling and manufacture costs put most guys off creating a line of generic heroic scale minis? especially when the market is so narrow (users needing proxies for one game?). What about marketing and support?

As Agamemnon has said do the majority of people who take an interest in proxy model actually make a purchase?

Mean Green, do you really 'need' heroic scale? Isn't that just another of GW's insidious tendrils probing at your psyche?

You're blurring proxy with temporary proxy.

We are talking about making armies for gaming using other ranges.

I 'need' heroic scale in order to play against my friends, who all have GW armies.

The only things that probe my psyche are beer, The Soon to Be Mrs Stompa and occasional musings about Natalie Portman and Keira Knightley exploring their feelings for each other in a paddling pool full of tiramisu...

I said one game to mean WHFB system not a single battle ..if thats what you mean by temporary proxy??? surely other companies minis can sit on a 20-25mm base without looking too out of place? if they do then that is a problem.

As for Miss Portman and Knightly they area bit 'fragile' looking wouldn't their heroic scale counter parts be Angelina Jolie and....Jordan?? (couldnt think of anyone else).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:all three varieties of standard generic elves,

This kinda thing makes me cringe, it does.

I'd rather see some companies out there trying to be creative and do things that haven't already been done to death.

JOHIRA wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:all three varieties of standard generic elves,

This kinda thing makes me cringe, it does.

I'd rather see some companies out there trying to be creative and do things that haven't already been done to death.

So you would rather only one company makes 28mm heroic scale plastic fantasy units?

I'm against monopolies myself but your welcome to your opinion on the matter.

The question could be posed to mini companies. Why do they not produce plastic kits for fantasy settings in heroic scale?

Are there any other popular alternatives to WHFB (not skirmish level but unit and regiment level)?

My gut feeling is that after WHFB there are only historicals with a level of following that supports the making of rank and file plastic minis?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So you would rather only one company makes 28mm heroic scale plastic fantasy units?

That's a rather loaded question.

Personally, I just don't care about 28mm heroic scale. I buy that scale because I play GW games, and that's the scale their minis come in. I would happily, in a heartbeat switch to a more realistic scale if it came with the game I liked to play. Or rather, since I don't play hardly at all any more, if it fit the IP I was into. More on that later.

As for the rest of your question, plastic units are fine. Fantasy plastic units are fine. It's making them generic that makes me cringe. I know you're asking for this because you think it will help with your crusade against GW, but for all the jokes we make about GW stealing ideas, the IP for their fantasy and 40K settings are pretty unique. A 40K space marine doesn't have much in common at all with Starship Trooper's mobile infantry, and the 'nids still look and act very different from Starcraft's Zerg despite being gestalt-consciousness insectoid aliens. And GW's fantasy line, despite having elves, dwarves, and orcs, is pretty radically different from most other fantasy IPs despite the superficial similarities.

What you're basically asking for is for someone to make non-GW minis that you can use with your GW minis in GW games so you can thumb your nose at GW. But don't you see that if you need that, you are admitting up front that GW is the best. If you can't stop playing GW's games, it's either because the rules are so much better than everyone else's ( ) or because you can't get enough of their IP.

If the rules are what you can't get enough of, there's no reason you can't use other minis in other scales. If it's the IP, then by definition generic fantasy and science fiction units are going to lack that IP. So there's no point. If other companies intend to undermine GW (and I'd love for some healthy competition to take off), they're far better off making an IP that people want.

Regardless of what all of the calls to boycott GW are saying, I've been watching this website for a long time now. Literally every time someone posts a new miniature or model product, the first thing anyone says is what GW miniature it can double as. As long as everyone treats GW as the standard, they're going to stay on top of the market.

Exactly.

I want more Steam Fantasy proxies

malfred wrote:

I want more Steam Fantasy proxies

Me too, I could build an empire of them...

@ JOHIRA

I totally agree 100%......couldn't have said it better.

The challenge to GW has to be at grass roots level, not just alternative miniatures, it has to be the whole shebang.

What people don't seem to understand, or want to comprehend, is that to boycott GW means to basically turn your back on them completely.....so buying from an alternative retailer of GW is not a Boycott, buying from ebay or second hand is not a boycott, and certainly playing the games with proxies is not a Boycott.....all these folks are doing is feeding their addiction through alternative sources, but surely they have to realise that all these alternative sources are supplied from...you got....GW!

Table Top Gaming News recently went where no other online forum or news site has gone before, the owner actaully asked the "public" if, due to all the bad press GW had been recieveing, they would like TTGN to stop, thats right STOP reporting (and thereby supporting) GW products.....funnily enough, all the nay-sayers were like "nah, its unfair to simply stop reporting on GW products, we need to stay unbiased"....what a load of BS!! The bloody addicts simply can't do without their fix.....yet, I wonder if we'll see an end to moaning on the TTGN forum....

I think one of the problems with going to another line is that you won't find any opponents to play with since everybody plays GW...

Well then, if thats the case your choices are limited....either you 1. Leave the hobby or 2. Suck it up and accept the fact that GW rules TTWG....end of.

I'm not being rude or flippant Malika2, but I hear that comment so, so often...and theres really nothing anyone can say to that. Of course, there is a thrid option, start up your own gaming club with like minded individuals who wish to further explore their hobby, and not GW brainwashed clones who can't see beyond their own noses.....but I can't imagine that hasn't occured to people, and so I assume it sits in the "TOO HARD" or "TOO MUCH STRESS" basket....which takes me back to option 1. or 2. (see above)

Table Top Gaming News recently went where no other online forum or news site has gone before, the owner actaully asked the "public" if, due to all the bad press GW had been recieveing, they would like TTGN to stop, thats right STOP reporting (and thereby supporting) GW products.....funnily enough, all the nay-sayers were like "nah, its unfair to simply stop reporting on GW products

WHY??? -That was a great oppurtinity.

There are tonnes of other good games why couldn't they just play those. GW may actually notice if TTGN stop reporting about them. After everything GW do and how much everyone complains we should be fair to them.

Some people are just so stupid.
Just take a side and stick to it, please.

Again, another worthless attempt at hurting GW.

GW's game is not funded by the extreme army collectors who post on these forums. The oldtimer fan with 10,000 point armies or do a new army every 6 months is not the core demo or even a massive chunk. The fact is someone can pay about 300$ have a solid 2000 point army and never buy another model again and be perfectly complete for years in this hobby. The way they make money is via having *US* play thier games in public places and draw in new people to paint up another 300$ of models. and so on and so on.

Going to a store and playing the game with others even with a total army of alternative figures you are still promoting GW and helping them sell models by the simple act of playing the game and most people whos ee you playing with your alternative figures will say "what is the game?" not "where did you get those particular figures right there?"

They buy the core box, see the GW books and lines and BAM, GW has another player. Your boycott of not buying GW figures did absolutely *NOTHING* and your inability to do a real boycott actually continued to help promote sales by playing the game in a public place.

Even screaming about the evils of GW while you play their game won't help because most new people won't know enough *OR CARE* to attempt to support an alternative figure line until much deeper into the hobby.

So why should other companies attempt to make full lines PROXY FRIENDLY figures that will continue to turn around and be used to play GWs game and will still promote GW's IP and interests so a handful of pissed of internet players can think they are somehow harming GW while continuing to play the game?

The only way to actually make a difference is to walk away. Stop playing any GW game with *ANY* minis. Play another game or play no game. But people are unwilling to do that because they are selfish and still want thier own gratification without *REAL* sacrifice or pain. A lazyman's boycott which is why boycotts in this day and age are wastes of times.

If a company is going to go the trouble of make full lines of generic fantasy, they should design thier own rules and have thier own game which then anyone wishing to "ruin forever" GW could go play in stores in an attempt to spread an alternative game.

Actually the real smart way of focusing internet nerdrage would to be to approach one of these companies and ask if a bunch of people could form a rulescouncil to make official rules for a specific miniature-lines figures in an attempt to support that company's minis with a game system. Have a Living Rule book that the rule council gives them 'featured' rules to sell their models. Have people make rules for rules and people who make minis for minis. That is much more constructive than about 95% of the suggestions recently on these boards. There is totally enough talent and effort in a community like this to design a reasonable wargame/skirmish/dugneon game that would be a valid alternative to GEEEDUBBYUOA

Personally, I don't think any comany should do squat to make GW proxies. I actually like some of the more realistic non-heroscale models that are not overflowing thier bases in horrible manners or are multipart to an obscene extreme.

nkelsch wrote:Again, another worthless attempt at hurting GW.

GW's game is not funded by the extreme army collectors who post on these forums. The oldtimer fan with 10,000 point armies or do a new army every 6 months is not the core demo or even a massive chunk. The fact is someone can pay about 300$ have a solid 2000 point army and never buy another model again and be perfectly complete for years in this hobby. The way they make money is via having *US* play thier games in public places and draw in new people to paint up another 300$ of models. and so on and so on.

Going to a store and playing the game with others even with a total army of alternative figures you are still promoting GW and helping them sell models by the simple act of playing the game and most people whos ee you playing with your alternative figures will say "what is the game?" not "where did you get those particular figures right there?"

They buy the core box, see the GW books and lines and BAM, GW has another player. Your boycott of not buying GW figures did absolutely *NOTHING* and your inability to do a real boycott actually continued to help promote sales by playing the game in a public place.

Even screaming about the evils of GW while you play their game won't help because most new people won't know enough *OR CARE* to attempt to support an alternative figure line until much deeper into the hobby.

So why should other companies attempt to make full lines PROXY FRIENDLY figures that will continue to turn around and be used to play GWs game and will still promote GW's IP and interests so a handful of pissed of internet players can think they are somehow harming GW while continuing to play the game?

The only way to actually make a difference is to walk away. Stop playing any GW game with *ANY* minis. Play another game or play no game. But people are unwilling to do that because they are selfish and still want thier own gratification without *REAL* sacrifice or pain. A lazyman's boycott which is why boycotts in this day and age are wastes of times.

If a company is going to go the trouble of make full lines of generic fantasy, they should design thier own rules and have thier own game which then anyone wishing to "ruin forever" GW could go play in stores in an attempt to spread an alternative game.

Actually the real smart way of focusing internet nerdrage would to be to approach one of these companies and ask if a bunch of people could form a rulescouncil to make official rules for a specific miniature-lines figures in an attempt to support that company's minis with a game system. Have a Living Rule book that the rule council gives them 'featured' rules to sell their models. Have people make rules for rules and people who make minis for minis. That is much more constructive than about 95% of the suggestions recently on these boards. There is totally enough talent and effort in a community like this to design a reasonable wargame/skirmish/dugneon game that would be a valid alternative to GEEEDUBBYUOA

Personally, I don't think any comany should do squat to make GW proxies. I actually like some of the more realistic non-heroscale models that are not overflowing thier bases in horrible manners or are multipart to an obscene extreme.

I don't play in a store...?

I play with a group of about 15 mates. We play at each other's houses. Your missing the point of the thread, there is a sales opportunity for anyone to step in and make well sculpted 28mm fantasy rank and file miniatures.

There also isn't any profit in writing up the game rules, the sale of minis is where the money is to be made.

As to entire lines of proxies, I think there are companies already producing lines of fantasy 28mm heroic, I am simply saying the conversion to multipart plastic for their rank and file will seal the deal...
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/index.php/language/en/XTCsid/fb2638db7ba680ee4c57fc24ea46771a

Your post is also crammed full of flamebait, please take steps to avoid coming across as inflammatory. Many thanks.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I don't play in a store...?

I play with a group of about 15 mates. We play at each other's houses. Your missing the point of the thread, there is a sales opportunity for anyone to step in and make well sculpted 28mm fantasy rank and file miniatures.

And none of them play in the stores either? Do any of them support GW or have youa nd your cult all made the suicide pact and drank the kool-aid to board the mothership?

Playing the game supports and promotes GW.

There also isn't any profit in writing up the game rules, the sale of minis is where the money is to be made.

GW makes plenty of profit off of the rules and uses the rules to drive miniature sales. If a company made generic skeletons, why would someone buy them except for the reason to "paint nice minis" or "use them in a gaming system".

And who said anything about profit? I thought for many this was a hobby? people int his community spend years making rules for games to support painting and playing with minis. If some have desired to see new minis take the forefront and not support a specific company and are actually serious and genuine about it then why not develop a fun, well-written quality rules set that allows any or all minis and supports other companies? I would think 'small fish' companies would gladly support a fan-based rules community that in turn sent business to their miniatures. It is a lot more realistic than many of the alternatives.

Your post is also crammed full of flamebait, please take steps to avoid coming across as inflammatory. Many thanks.

The fact is this thread is not about other companies making a smart business decision to make 28mm scale models to make a profit, it is for you to have your personal crusade against GW. You don't like McDonalds but you want a Big Mac... and you want other restaurants not to make 'hamburgers' but make 'big macs' so you can have what you want without supporting McDonalds. I see no valid reason other companies should make a 'Big mac' to please you especially when it would ruin the products they have already made... (i.e: Realistic 25mm based on thier own imagery and sculpting opposed to 28mm hero scale to infiltrate and be GW knockoff quality.)

The only true way to hurt GW is to walk away from the game 100% including playing or promoting. Get your 15 friends together and play something else or make a new rules system that uses other companies miniatures. Everything else is like eating while on a hunger strike.

Let's keep the discussion on alternative miniatures ideas, rather than criticising other posters' gaming habits, folks.

Well, I guess you can really think what you like. I return to the original point that 28mm multipart plastics would sell.

There is a niche there if a company decides to use it.

...and I'm done. This isn't a thread about personal crusades, loads of other companies already produce their metal minis in 28mm heroic scale, I simply requested they consider the plastic 'rank and file' boxed sets to be added to their ranges.

nkelsch wrote:

If a company is going to go the trouble of make full lines of generic fantasy, they should design thier own rules and have thier own game which then anyone wishing to "ruin forever" GW could go play in stores in an attempt to spread an alternative game.

Actually the real smart way of focusing internet nerdrage would to be to approach one of these companies and ask if a bunch of people could form a rulescouncil to make official rules for a specific miniature-lines figures in an attempt to support that company's minis with a game system. Have a Living Rule book that the rule council gives them 'featured' rules to sell their models. Have people make rules for rules and people who make minis for minis. That is much more constructive than about 95% of the suggestions recently on these boards.

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There is totally enough talent and effort in a community like this to design a reasonable wargame/skirmish/dugneon game that would be a valid alternative to GEEEDUBBYUOA

Personally, I don't think any comany should do squat to make GW proxies.


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I actually like some of the more realistic non-heroscale models that are not overflowing thier bases in horrible manners or are multipart to an obscene extreme.

Quoted for the truth of it

come up with a generic space war game / fantasy war game, with decent rules. And allow people to use whatever companies models they want
And all of the model companies, will have to compete on price
Create a market for small companies to expand into

loki old fart wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

If a company is going to go the trouble of make full lines of generic fantasy, they should design thier own rules and have thier own game which then anyone wishing to "ruin forever" GW could go play in stores in an attempt to spread an alternative game.

Actually the real smart way of focusing internet nerdrage would to be to approach one of these companies and ask if a bunch of people could form a rulescouncil to make official rules for a specific miniature-lines figures in an attempt to support that company's minis with a game system. Have a Living Rule book that the rule council gives them 'featured' rules to sell their models. Have people make rules for rules and people who make minis for minis. That is much more constructive than about 95% of the suggestions recently on these boards.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is totally enough talent and effort in a community like this to design a reasonable wargame/skirmish/dugneon game that would be a valid alternative to GEEEDUBBYUOA

Personally, I don't think any comany should do squat to make GW proxies.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually like some of the more realistic non-heroscale models that are not overflowing thier bases in horrible manners or are multipart to an obscene extreme.

Quoted for the truth of it

come up with a generic space war game / fantasy war game, with decent rules. And allow people to use whatever companies models they want
And all of the model companies, will have to compete on price

Armies of Arcana.

I was wondering what site had some good scaled minatures from the American Revolution and, the civil war.

I like the idea of a 40k imperial guard army using these types of minatures so, if anyone know of any sites that have good detail and scaled to about a guardsmen this would be of great help to me

shank911 wrote:I was wondering what site had some good scaled minatures from the American Revolution and, the civil war.

I like the idea of a 40k imperial guard army using these types of minatures so, if anyone know of any sites that have good detail and scaled to about a guardsmen this would be of great help to me

The Perry Brothers do a fantastic set of ACW miniatures, 36 Infantry men for $28 at the warstore (http://www.thewarstore.com/product37198.html) or £13.50 at Maelstorm (http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=pry_acw_fre_inf_101_000) they also offer a set of Cav if you want to do Rogue Riders (12 Cavarly men for the same price)

come up with a generic space war game / fantasy war game, with decent rules. And allow people to use whatever companies models they want
And all of the model companies, will have to compete on price
Create a market for small companies to expand into

Wasn't that game called Vor?

Hows it doing?

The only reference to "vor" I could find was a book.
Was the game any good?

loki old fart wrote:The only reference to "vor" I could find was a book.
Was the game any good?

Vor was a miniatures game by FASA. Here is the linky to some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VOR:_The_Maelstrom

It had a fair amount of art by Matt Wilson (Privateer Press/Warmachine).

The game had established armies and a model range, but it also had a section that was a "design an army" section of rules so that you could use any figs in Vor games...

nkelsch wrote:So why should other companies attempt to make full lines PROXY FRIENDLY figures that will continue to turn around and be used to play GWs game and will still promote GW's IP and interests so a handful of pissed of internet players can think they are somehow harming GW while continuing to play the game?

The only way to actually make a difference is to walk away. Stop playing any GW game with *ANY* minis. Play another game or play no game. But people are unwilling to do that because they are selfish and still want thier own gratification without *REAL* sacrifice or pain.

This is what it boils down to. Myself, I decided to break my ersatz purchase moratorium. I don't owe it to anyone to "boycott" GW nor do I believe such actions will ever be successful. Sure, I could build my own Valkyrie out of scrap or spend tens of hours converting up something else, but to what end?

loki old fart wrote:The only reference to "vor" I could find was a book.
Was the game any good?

The game crashed and burned ages ago. It didn't help that it had excessively terrible miniatures, even by the standards of its time.

Further to the idea that we need to encourage small miniature manufacturers.
Has anyone played by this system.?

http://www.freewebs.com/weaselfierce/

WFB is is simple to get alternative models for since the fantasy world isnt really copyrighted..

Elves, orks, humans, undead.. are all widely available.

40k has always been more of a problem since you'll almost never find a legal alternative space marine (ive never seen one) nor Eldar, Tau, chaos space marines

Sure you can find generic IG troopers, but you wont find leman russes or anything

You can use entire proxy armies which is fine to me, but also defeats some of the purpose of the game.. There is no company that makes better 40k models than GW.. Using lower quality models seems like it would take some of the cool factor away

Am I the only one who likes their HQ units (or Lords and Heroes for fantasy) metal? I feel like they have much better detail, and it adds individuality to have a few metal figures in with a ton of plastic models.

GW won't lower prices, period, thats why we need a company to rise to the 28mm scale, and start selling better or equal quality plastics to GW, that can be used in 40K and Fantasy, for cheaper, and they need to make themselves known.

If that would happen...GW would have to lower prices.

I know that I'm a heretic amongst today's kiddies in that I don't like plastic miniatures at all. I don't like their "feel", heft, or their durability compared to spindly multi-piece plastics. I avoid plastics altogether were I can and try to use one piece metal models were they exist for a particular project. Before anyone brings up the conversion argument, I do almost no converting, so that's not an issue.

What is needed rather than more plastic is a company to produce bulk lots of inexpensive metal minitaures. I would love to see something along the line of Old Glory, with a similar pricing model (OG charges about 30$US for a bag of 30 infantry) but with increased sculpt quality. (the only real problem with Old Glory is that their figures are middle of the road in quality)

TR

I've said before - if Pig Iron made their regular models in plastic, I'd give them lots of monies. I enjoy metal for characters and the like, and it's usually not feasible to make an HQ in plastic, barring generic kits like the Space Marine Captain.