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I've been seeing a lot of these threads lately in the aftermath of the Doom of Malantai debate.

Here is a quick rundown:

If the power affects "units" within range and does not require line of sight, then yes, the rules on page 66 dictate that it should be able to affect transported units.

If the power affects "models" within range, then no, the models are not physically on the table to measure to, and there are no rules to give you a mechanic by which to measure to the individual models.

And so the great Trolle King Gwar! doth decree:

Willydstyle is correct.

It seems like a pretty slow day on YMDC.

It's a difficult question, becuase the game mechanics doesn't really cover it's effects.

Purely Raw i'd agree with you Willydstyle
HYWPI, definitley not. To much of a tarpit.

This is from the 40K FAQ

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

From a RAW Argument you are probably correct, I just see most people saying that you can't use any power on a unit embarked unless the model casting the power is also embarked with said unit, because of the FAQ. This regardless if the power specifies model or unit, as the FAQ clearly states unit and says no.

The FAQ specifically talks about psychic powers, and ignores the rules of the game. It is not a clarification but a rules change. I play by this rules change, but it does not apply to non-psychic powers.

If the power affects "models" within range, then no, the models are not physically on the table to measure to, and there are no rules to give you a mechanic by which to measure to the individual models.

Were does it say in the rule book that the models are not supposed to be placed in the transport? While I know GWs terrible models never hold the specific number of troops they claim they do, Every transport that they sell has compartments that can and do hold models.

So unless there is a rule I missed (mind you, not unheard of) that allows people to remove models from the table I would say that a power that states it effects models not in LoS can be used.

The rules for embarking in transports tells you to remove the models from the table.

sbeasley wrote:This is from the 40K FAQ

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’.

From a RAW Argument you are probably correct, I just see most people saying that you can't use any power on a unit embarked unless the model casting the power is also embarked with said unit, because of the FAQ. This regardless if the power specifies model or unit, as the FAQ clearly states unit and says no.

Guess what? Something that applies to psychic powers does not apply to non psychic powers.

-Le gasp!-

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:This is from the 40K FAQ

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’.

From a RAW Argument you are probably correct, I just see most people saying that you can't use any power on a unit embarked unless the model casting the power is also embarked with said unit, because of the FAQ. This regardless if the power specifies model or unit, as the FAQ clearly states unit and says no.

Guess what? Something that applies to psychic powers does not apply to non psychic powers.

-Le gasp!-

My apologizes. Not having the Tyranid codex I assumed the "power" was a psychic power.

Interesting, I guess as it is right now it would affect transported units. Makes me wonder about the vibro cannon in the Eldar codex since it states any unit on the line takes d6 hits. If the line passed over a transport would the unit being transported take d6 hits? I realize the unit cannot be targeted, but vibro cannons don't require a target, just draw a line. And it specifies unit and not models as well.

sbeasley wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:This is from the 40K FAQ

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’.

From a RAW Argument you are probably correct, I just see most people saying that you can't use any power on a unit embarked unless the model casting the power is also embarked with said unit, because of the FAQ. This regardless if the power specifies model or unit, as the FAQ clearly states unit and says no.

Guess what? Something that applies to psychic powers does not apply to non psychic powers.

-Le gasp!-

My apologizes. Not having the Tyranid codex I assumed the "power" was a psychic power.

Interesting, I guess as it is right now it would affect transported units. Makes me wonder about the vibro cannon in the Eldar codex since it states any unit on the line takes d6 hits. If the line passed over a transport would the unit being transported take d6 hits? I realize the unit cannot be targeted, but vibro cannons don't require a target, just draw a line. And it specifies unit and not models as well.

I would say "no" as the rules on page 66 are specific about having to measure range to a unit. The line of the vibro cannon is not measuring range to the unit, so it does not have a mechanic for affecting the unit in the transport.

willydstyle wrote:I would say "no" as the rules on page 66 are specific about having to measure range to a unit. The line of the vibro cannon is not measuring range to the unit, so it does not have a mechanic for affecting the unit in the transport.

If I needed to measure range to that unit I would use the hull. Is all I see about measuring range.

The vibro cannon doesn't require measuring range to a unit. It states to draw a 36" line in any direction and any unit that the line passes through suffers d6 hits. The vibro cannon doesn't even require an initial target. I just roll to hit, and draw a line. How is this different from the power specified in the Tyranid codex? Other than one is an area affect and one is a line, and one being a "Power" and one being a weapon.

sbeasley wrote:How is this different from the power specified in the Tyranid codex? Other than one is an area affect and one is a line, and one being a "Power" and one being a weapon.

Exactly, one is a weapon, one is a rule that affects units within a certain radius. You do not measure range to a unit for the Vibro Cannon, you draw a line and any unit on that line gets hit. The unit is not on that line, so it isn't hit. Leech Essence on the other hand hits all units within 6", and the rules on Page 66 mean that an embarked unit will be hit if the hull of their transport is within 6".

ehhh, should that necessarily matter though?

While the vibro gun is a weapon it doesn't specifically target units, doesn't even need LOS to them for that matter either.

It is also a 'field' of effect just like DoM. A VERY different type of field mind, you, but one just the same nonetheless. DoM's is a million lines heading out 6" in all directions basically while the Vibro gun is just one line heading out X #inches.

DoM says all units within its field become affected and effect Z occurs... I don't have the Eldar condex but it's being intimated here that the wording for it states all units in/under its own line-field get affected by effect Y-- which just so happens to be an effect where rolls to wound directly occur as opposed to DoM's 'test' which results in them.

Under the unit-in-field theory and text supporting DoM getting to models in transports, the same would 'appear' to lend itself true for the vibro cannon.

Hell of a lot of assumption though. To make any sort of call I'd need someone to post the rules verbatim for the weapon in question.

The Dragon wrote:

Hell of a lot of assumption though. To make any sort of call I'd need someone to post the rules verbatim for the weapon in question.

Here it is... Verbatim

"Vibro Cannon: A vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When

firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit,

draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6

hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of

three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit

it touches takes D6 S6 hits. A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit;

do not roll for armour penetration.

Range: 36" S: 4 AP: - Heavy 1, Pinning "


I hope that helps.

It doesn't matter, you aren't measuring to the unit, and the only time you are allowed to use the hull is when measuring to the unit, it's as simple as that, you aren't doing the thing that allows you to proxy the hull of a vehicle with a Vibro Cannon

The Dragon wrote:ehhh, should that necessarily matter though?

While the vibro gun is a weapon it doesn't specifically target units, doesn't even need LOS to them for that matter either.

It is also a 'field' of effect just like DoM. A VERY different type of field mind, you, but one just the same nonetheless. DoM's is a million lines heading out 6" in all directions basically while the Vibro gun is just one line heading out X #inches.

DoM says all units within its field become affected and effect Z occurs... I don't have the Eldar condex but it's being intimated here that the wording for it states all units in/under its own line-field get affected by effect Y-- which just so happens to be an effect where rolls to wound directly occur as opposed to DoM's 'test' which results in them.

Under the unit-in-field theory and text supporting DoM getting to models in transports, the same would 'appear' to lend itself true for the vibro cannon.

Hell of a lot of assumption though. To make any sort of call I'd need someone to post the rules verbatim for the weapon in question.

Saying that something is a "field" effect really has no bearing in a rules discussions, because "field" is just a convenient way for us to describe something but has no definition in the rules. The rules on page 66 only give us a mechanic for measuring range to a unit embarked in a transport, and the vibrocannon does not measure ranges.

Gwar! wrote:Leech Essence on the other hand hits all units within 6", and the rules on Page 66 mean that an embarked unit will be hit if the hull of their transport is within 6".

BTW Gwar!, I see your point in referencing the parragraph on p.66 of the BRB which states:

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

I understand this measurment to be intended for things like claiming/holding objectives for example, but not for shooting at the unit, and this includes psychic 'shooting' attacks. This is consistent with the GW ruling in the FAQ referenced above.

I do agree with your viewpoint on Spirit Leech since it seems to be a special rule for the DoM and not a psychic attack. However Leech Essence is a psychic shooting attack as clearly stated in the Nid codex p.62. Maybe you confused the two.

Cheers!

The vibrocannon IS measuring range. It has a 36" range. You have to check it. If they're out, there's no effect.

Hey if we're going to start completely ignoring vehicles in favor of certain weapons, we need to be consistent eh?

And we also need to be consistent in being RAW. Gwar!, can you give me any reason that the Doom of Malan'tai, not being a Zoanthrope, should get a 3+ invulnerable save from the Warp Field ability? It says it grants Zoanthropes a 3+ inv save, but the Doom isn't one. So it's just got a 5+ armour save and that's it right?

Not shooting. Not psychic power. Not targeting.

It works, as I read it.

The first thing I notice when I read it is "every NON-VEHICLE unit within six inches of the Doom of Malantai..."

If it says every NON-vehicle unit must take a leadership test, why would it go through the VEHICLE that has to be within 6" for the passengers to be targeted?

Well lets assume then that this thing can actually hurt dudes in transports. Seeing as it occurs in the shooting phase, specifies that you may not take armor saves against it, and does not specify that you can't take cover saves from it.. does the unit in the vehicle get a cover save from it?

I completely concur that the Doom of Malan'tai's 'Spirit Leech' affects embarked units.

It is NOT a psychic power (its a special rule) so it is not bound by GW's FAQ ruling.

Its rules do NOT require line of sight, so line of sight is not an issue.

It even targets UNITS not MODELS, so the whole debate about measuring to models in a transport is moot.

This is one of the easier 'tough' rules calls I've seen IMHO.

The reason most people seem to be so bent out of shape about it is because they think it is way over the top. I have yet to play against a game against 'The Doom', but looking at his stats, I don't see why he's such a big deal.

If I've got something wrong here (which is entirely possible), can someone point it out to me:

1) 'The Doom' moves as infantry (i.e. pretty slow).
2) 'The Doom' regardless of how many Wounds he gains, only has a T4 and can therefore be Instant Death'd by S8+ attacks.
3) 'Spirit Leech' only affects units within 6".


So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?



And one last general point about attacking embarked units in transports: The RAW are a mess. The rulebook is missing any kind of blanket statement that units inside transports cannot be targeted by shooting, and so by the RAW any weapon that doesn't require LOS (like the Hive Guard's Impaler Cannon or Tau Smart Missiles) should be able to shoot away at units in their transports, with any kind of real-world common sense, be damned.

So personally I feel like anytime we get into these discussions it has to be understood that we're in an area of the rules where there is a lot of ambiguity and it is unlikely to find a clear path that everyone will agree on. With that in mind, unless you're playing with something like the INAT in place, or against a group of friends who you all know how they want to play, this is the kind of thing that you just need to bring up pre-game to get a feeler on how your opponent plays.

I think this is one of the last really big loopholes left in the 40K rules (just big ones) that I was really disappointed to not see covered in the 5th edition rules...I just couldn't believe when I read the new rulebook that they STILL didn't have anything spelling out that embarked units can't be shot at by weapons that don't require LOS...

yakface wrote:So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?

Yes.

The Doom of Malan'tai doesn't have a 3+ Invulnerable save

Gwar! wrote:

yakface wrote:So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?

Yes.

The Doom of Malan'tai doesn't have a 3+ Invulnerable save

Just like Sky Claws and Swift Claws do not have Beserk Charge or Headstrong.

Anyway, silly RAW interpretations out of the way, I am really curious why people have said this power is over the top if it affects embarked units.

A 3+ invulnerable save is annoying, but its not like its re-rollable like Eldrad...and one S8 hit and that's it.

yakface wrote:
Anyway, silly RAW interpretations out of the way, I am really curious why people have said this power is over the top if it affects embarked units.

A 3+ invulnerable save is annoying, but its not like its re-rollable like Eldrad...and one S8 hit and that's it.

Oh, I agree. No idea why people are getting their panties in a twist. It's so hilarious actually. Last 3 games I have played against nids, each player has tried to use the DoM "Bomb" on me.

Every time my Long Fangs have giggled as they Drop Pod in next to it and Multimelta it to tiny bits. (yay for The High King!)

I think because people are used to their transports protecting their units from virtually all attack. The idea that someone could kill some models without first having to destroy the transport is frightening to them.

yakface wrote:

1) 'The Doom' moves as infantry (i.e. pretty slow).
2) 'The Doom' regardless of how many Wounds he gains, only has a T4 and can therefore be Instant Death'd by S8+ attacks.
3) 'Spirit Leech' only affects units within 6".


So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?

The only thing you are overlooking is that, he is quite cheap at around the cost of 2 Terminators, and he can take a drop spore to land in on your lines, he doesn't have to footslog, if you drop him in near(within 6" of), say 2 units, even at Leadership 10 those units have a 50% chance to fail the Leadership test, further the roll has about 2/3 likelihood of falling within the 8-12 range of results, so for anything Leadership 7 or less, you have about a 16% chance of passing it. What this means is, if you deep strike it smart, it can leech a significant number of wounds, and proceed to in the same round throw out a high Str Ap1 large blast, easily making back it's points cost if there is a valuable unit such as terminators or Thunderwolf Cavalry around.

Basically, it's not overpowered, it's just not nearly expensive enough, points wise.

Drunkspleen wrote:

yakface wrote:

1) 'The Doom' moves as infantry (i.e. pretty slow).
2) 'The Doom' regardless of how many Wounds he gains, only has a T4 and can therefore be Instant Death'd by S8+ attacks.
3) 'Spirit Leech' only affects units within 6".


So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?

The only thing you are overlooking is that, he is quite cheap at around the cost of 2 Terminators, and he can take a drop spore to land in on your lines, he doesn't have to footslog, if you drop him in near(within 6" of), say 2 units, even at Leadership 10 those units have a 50% chance to fail the Leadership test, further the roll has about 2/3 likelihood of falling within the 8-12 range of results, so for anything Leadership 7 or less, you have about a 16% chance of passing it. What this means is, if you deep strike it smart, it can leech a significant number of wounds, and proceed to in the same round throw out a high Str Ap1 large blast, easily making back it's points cost if there is a valuable unit such as terminators or Thunderwolf Cavalry around.

Basically, it's not overpowered, it's just not nearly expensive enough, points wise.

But our feelings about how powerful a unit is should not affect how we interpret its rules.