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No, really, I'm, curious, can a unit in a transport take a cover save from the wounds caused by this attack? We know that armor saves can't be taken, and the thing doesn't need line of sight, so the only way to claim a cover save is to be within area terrain or touching interposing cover. If you are within a transport, are you touching it, and is it between you and the monster?

Falconlance wrote:No, really, I'm, curious, can a unit in a transport take a cover save from the wounds caused by this attack? We know that armor saves can't be taken, and the thing doesn't need line of sight, so the only way to claim a cover save is to be within area terrain or touching interposing cover. If you are within a transport, are you touching it, and is it between you and the monster?

Again, I'd say we're in murky, murky territory when it comes to the actual rules.

The issue is this:


The rulebook only has casualty removal rules regarding shooting and close combat. There is no description of how wounds that are inflicted via other means are resolved. Now, common sense by most players means they understand that if a model gets a wound from a special rule that means they get to take an armor save against it (unless the rules says otherwise) and then if they fail that wound the model is removed as a casualty (assuming it only has a single wound).

The thing is, that's all made up connections of existing rules referring to shooting or assaults.

In reality, when a unit or model takes a wound outside of the normal process for shooting or assault, we have no description of what happens from that point on unless the rule says it is resolved as with shooting (for example).


This is why attacks that occur in other phases of the game (such as Swooping Hawk grenade packs, Mawloc attacks, etc) as well as non-shooting hits and wounds (such as vehicle explosions) are so difficult to figure out. Do you roll separately for each individual model affected or do you use normal shooting casualty removal rules? Do you get cover saves and if so, what if there is no 'firing' model to draw line of sight from to determine if the models are in cover or not (such as with an exploding vehicle, Mawloc attack, etc).


The truth is, there is no definitive rules on the matter and so it will always remain a heated topic until GW goes ahead and writes a little blurb into their next rulebook about how hits and wounds caused by non-shooting/assault methods are resolved when not specified otherwise.



While the rules for Spirit Leech don't specify that cover saves are taken, again, they also don't specify how to resolve these wounds against the unit so we're left assuming we're supposed to use the normal shooting rules for casualty removal which include the rules for cover saves.

But does 'The Doom' count as a firing model for determining cover saves in this case? Who knows.

I'd be fine playing it either way personally, but I honestly don't know how you're supposed to play...although I'd guess that the developers didn't intend for any cover saves to be taken.

willydstyle wrote:But our feelings about how powerful a unit is should not affect how we interpret its rules.

Sure is lucky I wasn't addressing how we interpret its rules but rather Yak's assessment that Doom isn't "such a big deal" and his potential impact on the game...

willydstyle wrote:I think because people are used to their transports protecting their units from virtually all attack.

That's because when you buy a vehicle transport, spending points on it, you'd expect at least some protection. From the very top of the much referenced p.66: "Some vehicles can carry infantry across the battlefield providing speed and protection."

willydstyle wrote: The idea that someone could kill some models without first having to destroy the transport is frightening to them.

I'd say it's rather disgust, not fright, that such a cheap unit can readily negate more expensive ones.

Drunkspleen wrote: he can take a drop spore to land in on your lines, he doesn't have to footslog, if you drop him in near(within 6" of), say 2 units, even at Leadership 10 those units have a 50% chance to fail the Leadership test, further the roll has about 2/3 likelihood of falling within the 8-12 range of results, so for anything Leadership 7 or less, you have about a 16% chance of passing it.

Considering the deep strike scenario Drunkspleen painted, it's a sure bet wounds will be caused by it in either turn since the rule reads that this happens "At the beginning of every Shooting phase,
including the foe's." If you pair this up with Absorb Life, in which DoM immediately gains +1 Wound, to a maximum of 10 Wounds, for every unsaved wound it inflicts, he/she/it can go from 3 wounds to 10 (same value in strength) in rather quick succession. And DoM does not have to pass a psychic test for any of this to happen. At 130 pt cost combo, it's a very cheap alternative, and a deadly strategy. Even if it's just for diversionary purposes.

Don't forget Cataclysm which gives it a 24" range, strength X (number of wonds), AP1, Assault 1, Large Blast psychic shooting attack. Siiiiick!

I noticed some say DoM is not a Zoanthrope, but for all intended purposes and RAW, it IS a suped up Zoanthrope since it has all the Zoanthrope special rules listed in its entry and is treated as such. In fact, I'd bet you could use a Zoanthrope model for it until they release it.

90% of transports are not "more expensive" than the DoM. Mostly they are 35 or 55 points.

yakface wrote:So why the heck can't you just shoot this thing from a distance with enough S8 shots until he fails his 3+ invulnerable save and goes *pop*? If he's getting within 6" of your transports, it seems like something you can totally control (since transports move faster than him) and you should be altering your tactics.

Am I wrong here?

90 points for The Doom of malan'tai and 40 points for the mycetic spore + 10 for a weapon for the spore.. So 140 points and you are able to drop pod this sucker in, get up to 10 wounds at the start of the shooting phase and then drop a S10 ap 1 large blast down. Having it drop into a line of infantry is bad enough. Having it beat down units inside transports makes it WAY better.

It *should* be dead a turn after it arrives but do you really want to bet against a 3+ invuln? Plus, it's not like taking this model is going to prevent you from taking other nasty things from the codex either. If it only hurts infantry outside of transports it's bad enough.

For some reason I just want to let this one blow over before I tackle it.

I think that it should not be able to target units in vehicles. That is because of the precedent to game mechanics that has been laid out by GW and the rest of the gaming community.

Then again, the prevailence of MEchanized armies causes a lot of people to "whine" about the implications.

Maybe its things like this that the gaming community needs to shake up the metagame, and prevent its stagnation.

That is all I have to say on the subject.

Cheers!

EDIT: Embedded video a bit small, here is link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97qAyRq_F0&feature=player_embedded


EDIT 2: Credit BOLS for making me laugh for 5 minutes straight before reposting here =D

Oh sweet !@#$! That's !@#$ hilarious...LMFAO!!

Kudos apwill4765, nicely done

Meedean wrote:Oh sweet !@#$! That's !@#$ hilarious...LMFAO!!

Kudos apwill4765, nicely done

lol ty, yea, I should definitely credit BOLS where I found that.

Deepstriking the Doom is really the only way to use him. If he gets a bad scatter, he'll fizzle as without absorbing wounds, he doesn't have a lot of power in his attack if he even chooses to attack at all. He has a lot of potential to be 130 wasted points.

Exactly. Remember that it still has a 2/3 chance to scatter and the average scatter is 7".

Gwar! wrote:Exactly. Remember that it still has a 2/3 chance to scatter and the average scatter is 7".

Half the scatter ranges at 7" will lead you to actually place him 1" away from their stack of transports/units if you're placing him right. He's 130 points (with spore pod) and he's, what other people like to call, a 'bluff' unit. He gets you to do things (like not clumping transports together on key areas), comes in and makes a mess anyway before getting axed by a power fist or something. He starts with four wounds, picks up ~2 from each unit hit and then drops a S6-10 AP 1 template. On your turn you kill him by overwhelming that 3++ with a ton of missiles. Its turn two or three and the MCs on the table got a turn (or two if the threat really threw a wrench into things) of just running forward/flying into position/deep striking/etc.

From what I've seen, podding in a DoM is an easy way to make back 100+ points (remember that heavy barbed strangler on the pod that you always take!) with little chance of it actually failing... while also giving your stuff a solid turn to jump up the field.

To roughly quote Hitler (how many times do we get to say that!): If it's used in the shooting phase and causes wounds, its an attack.

BTW, didn't this get debated with the original Lash of Submission bit about things in the shooting phase not being attacks, etc?

What was the debate about Lash?

Here's an interesting thing that is kinda related.

Does the changeling's ability work on units inside transports. I imagine it does since I think the wording is pretty much the same as the DoM. If so, what happens if I choose for the unit to shoot their own transport? Which armour side do they hit? etc

They could not draw LOS to their own transport, as LOS is *from* the vehicle itself.

Similarly can a Primaris Psyker's Nightshoud affect the vehicle he is in?

If DoM can hit units in transports and you count it as a shooting attack, what happens if it is in range of a vehicle containing a Primaris with Nightshoud up?

Except it ISNT A SHOOTING ATTACK

For the thousandth time, it is neither a psychic power nor a shooting attack of any kind.

Thats the point though. As yakface pointed out there is no rule definitions of these sort of things. RAW its not a shooting attack, but also RAW there is nothing saying how to take wounds if its not a shooting attack.

Yes there are, it tells you each model takes a wound. It does not need to define as shooting or close combat to do so.

After facing this unit this past weekend with the ruling that it can affect units inside transports...the Doom is silly. This unit accounted for the death of 2 of my troop units in one turn, before finally getting killed. In a game of objectives, losing two scoring units hurts. The ability to just place this thing in your lines with no real threat of a bad scatter makes it worse. Trying to bring weapons to bear that can insta-kill it is harder than you think since his power works at the start of the shooting phase. (it may melt away the guys holding said killy weapons before they get a chance to use them). It's a dumb unit that everyone-and-their-mom is going to take if it can indeed affect units in transports. A ridiculously good unit for dirt cheap and no real way of stopping it's power from going off.

CaptKaruthors wrote:After facing this unit this past weekend with the ruling that it can affect units inside transports...the Doom is silly. This unit accounted for the death of 2 of my troop units in one turn, before finally getting killed. In a game of objectives, losing two scoring units hurts. The ability to just place this thing in your lines with no real threat of a bad scatter makes it worse. Trying to bring weapons to bear that can insta-kill it is harder than you think since his power works at the start of the shooting phase. (it may melt away the guys holding said killy weapons before they get a chance to use them). It's a dumb unit that everyone-and-their-mom is going to take if it can indeed affect units in transports. A ridiculously good unit for dirt cheap and no real way of stopping it's power from going off.

Like a lot of the new Tyranid units, it's about disruption. You can't bunch up if the Doom of Malantai remains a threat, you need to spread out. Putting S8 hits onto it without being hit by Spirit Leech is pretty easy - you move 6" away from it before firing.

As for complaining that everyone will take it, it's a single model unit that is an Elite choice and competes with Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Venomthropes, Ymgarl Stealers, Lictors and Deathleaper. It's good choice, but it's not a guaranteed one - especially in larger games where it's effects are diluted.

It actually doesn't seem like that big a deal. Once again, we are dealing with the "ZOMG the new Codex is broken no lulz" that happens every. single. time a Codex is released. The DoM is good enough to change the metagame up a bit, which I like, but isn't at all reliable, has to start in reserve to even be useful and takes up an elite slot that could be used for something much better.

Yeah the cry for him not effecting units in vehicles simply seems to be driven by fear. Does a Farseer in a Wave Serpent become immune to psychic hoods and the like? No he doesn't so why does the Doom have to be different?

It is a nice spoiler if you bunch up it will hit 2-3 units and you are in trouble. It is unlikely to cause huge casualties to those units but will buff it's strength to 10.

Against Orks it is likely a bit of a waste. I mean causing even 3-4 casualties on 3 mobs of 30 boys is neither here nor there. In fact as they'll be LD 10 you'll only cause on average about 1 wound a unit... Hardly broken.

Small elite armies will struggle but then small elite armies are generally more maneuverable and will have more space to sspread out into to again reduce his effectiveness.

If you know your opponent has the Doom and you bunch up then I have no sympathy for you. And at least it prevents the standard boring castling tactic everyone loves against DS armies Which can only be a good thing. Heck the Doom is the one answer the nids have to the SW razorback spam list...

This was a pretty informative discussion. I'll suggest to my regular opponents that we play it with embarked units getting a 4+ hidden-in-a-vehicle-save against any wounds taken.

If I may be a bit cynic, here is my take on why the DoM is inteded to not be allowed to hurt models inside vehicles: I think GW wants to keep transports a very good addition to your army. They cost a lot of money per point, so people tends to buy a lot of them as long as the rules are good. And I think GW cares a lot more about their sales among the regular gamer enthusiasts than they do about the meta game as it looks among the hardcore competitive players. Simply because the tournament players are not that big a part of their consumer base. So the economically smart move would be to let the transports protect against the DoM.

Tyranids are a minority army; they're not going to shift the metagame substantially, especially considering they have a single unit to do so.

What was the decision on cover saves against it in

area terrain?

out of line of sight?

inside transports?

forkbanger wrote:Tyranids are a minority army; they're not going to shift the metagame substantially, especially considering they have a single unit to do so.

It's been my experience that the when the minority army gets a new, beefy codex it becomes a relatively common army before long.

I'll cite Orks, IG and Daemons(which didn't exist in 40k as a stand alone army before the codex was released) as examples. At least in my neck of the woods...

Its not like there werent people running nids right and left in 4th, and most of those players probably just put the nids on the shelf

Yeah... my problem with Doom is the whole "what happens next aspect". TBH, if it affects units in transports that's fine. But then do you get cover saves? And then if you lose too many guys and fail your leadership, what happens? It's just a mess. Can't wait for the FAQ.

BTW, Yakface, since you seem to favor it affecting units in transports, do you plan on addressing those issues?