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Maybe I am just a crusty old grognard here and remember the old days as being better even if they weren't, but I can't shake the feeling that Dakka is turning into a Warseer or B&C.

When I came here way back when, this place was like the wild west. You ran your mouth and you got called out. You said something stupid and you got flamed like crazy for it. I am pretty sure there were people who cried themselves to sleep after getting a royal reaming by some of the regulars.

Now I have new people telling me to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. People are coming on the boards and saying that math hammer is dumb and pointless, that units should be used because they are fluffy? Take that to the other boards where they like the same things. This is Dakka for crying out loud!

What is going on here? Dakka was where you came to learn how to win the game, not get a pat on the back and cuddle with a fluff bunny!

Where are the old guys anyway, like Mauleed, Tigerbaby, and all the others? I have not seen a 3 page flame war with death threats and people calling each other out for the next tournament in forever. Everyone is playing with kid gloves on now. It feels like Dakka is losing what made it unique. Dakka is lsoing the swagger that made me love the place

This was a place where you had to support your claims and if you made a ridiculous statement you got slammed. It was not polite and it was not nice but it made me a better player without question, and it made me realize that you can't go running your mouth about the game when you are unable to walk what you talk.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just missing the good old days?

I swear it seems like Dakka is changing from a whiskey drinking, bare knuckles saloon into a wine bar in the suburbs.

Well, I don't know about all that WAAC tournament crap, but you're right, the manners nazis are pretty hard core. However, Warseer is still much, much worse. I barely ever even lurk there, because it seems like most of the threads are started by tween glue-sniffers. At least here on Dakka, you have the off topic forum to indulge in silliness if the TFG stank on the 40K boards gets too thick, and it can. Is that enough straight talk for you? I may not be Stelek, but then again, that era is over.

Stelek got run out of here because he was so obnoxious. He knows the game, but he was the most condescending ass ever to grace these boards.

And WAAC tournament crap was EXACTLY what this place used to be about! It was what made it different here from the other boards. Without that it just starts to fade into the background. This was where you learned to play the best competitive game form the best competitive gamers and if you couldn't stand the criticism you left. No one cried about stuff, they just toughened up or left and that was that.

It just seems like the meek are inheriting Dakka. I liked it when it was a rough and tumble place. We weren't abject dick heads to one another, but no one worried about calling a spade a spade, either.

I too have noticed an increase in the Casual Gamer Mafia here at Dakka. I used to make the comment that if you want to learn what the rules actually say, go to Dakka.

In YMDC, it was all about what the rules actually said rather than what people want them to say, and the denigrating of the character of people explaining what the rules actually say rather than making actual logical arguments.

It was a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When 4th Ed. was still young. The ancient posters were petty and cruel, and they plagued Dakka for their sport. Plagued them with suffering. Besieging them with terrors. The people had nowhere to turn. No one to look to for help.

It was awesome.

Do you really have to be an ass to discuss tactics, object and explain your rationale, and have a conversation about the game? Really?

If you cant function without a flame war then that's sad. Id much rather come to a forum that has logical and mannered discussions where I can actually LEARN instead of asking a question and having it turn into an all out flame war. Im thankful for (most) of the help and tactics discussion that goes on here.

Yeah, sadly certain people have ruined what YMDC used to be when even I first arrived here a few years ago.

I am new but if there is a vote I am on team prolific swearing

I've been on here a year and if you seen my posts in loud mouths threads you would know I'm not afraid of calling someone out (even though the next 10 posts were defending the douch). I'm all about becoming a better player but half the post on here offering advice is like sifting through garbage for food. We meet the other day at the BSB (I was the guy in the checkered sweatshirt)and was hoping to get a match but I need more practice. I play against alot of different armys but still dont see them all (just need a little more experiance), Mabey at the next GT. I think alot of people only into the hobby side are mistaken about all players wanting to be good being WAAC players. I like lots of aspects of this hobby (like I love to paint my minis) but playing a fluff bunny is no challange and does not make for a fun game to me.

@the kerrick

People were passionate and stood up for their point of view and backed it with facts. Now everyone is so damn polite it hurts.

Be polite in real life, come to Dakka for the straight dope on what works, what doesn't and how the game plays.

You think you learn stuff now? I shudder at half the crap I see people post here in the tactics section, it is seriously watered down compared to what it used to be.

That is why I loved it! The bad advice got tossed out and people stopped posting garbage.

It felt like the only honest place on the net for 40K, free of bs. Now sometimes it went too far, but I would rather have that than a bunch of tea drinking mama's boys who can't take a slightly impolite statement without having a conniption fit.

Ask any of the old guys, we all LIKED it that way it was. It was exciting! Socially conforming politeness is bland and boring.

Yeah because you know, there's no way to have constructive information on a forum without everyone acting like slowed roid raging 13 year olds. (Not a jab any 13 year olds, but you get the point)

@Grimgob
Yeah man, good to meet you!

People who think tournament players are evil just don't get it. At a tournament everyone is cool and having a good time, half of us went and drank beers together after words. It is the competition that we crave! It is exciting!

I love to pain and model and read the books too, and every Saturday I play a beer and pretzels game with my friends with fluff oriented lists. I like that too, and I am a courteous, nice opponent at the table (as my sportsmanship scores will attest) but I like a tough game against a good player, it is more engaging!

That was what Dakka was, a place where the tournament players hung out and traded GOOD advice, not just wild opinions.

No you're spot on actually. Now if you want to win you are "TFG" and are ruining wargaming.

avantgarde wrote:It was a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When 4th Ed. was still young. The ancient posters were petty and cruel, and they plagued Dakka for their sport. Plagued them with suffering. Besieging them with terrors. The people had nowhere to turn. No one to look to for help.

It was awesome.

a long time ago in FOURTH ed....


oh lord god emperor how far things fall.... get over it and talk some gak yall!!

@Razzle
A little heavy on the hyperbole there my friend. It wasn't like that, well, maybe a little when it got heated, haha, but the point was that you got honest to goodness, tried and true, brass tacks advice on how to build a good list and how to play the game well and by the rules.

Your argument that flaming and death threats "enables" logical and accurate discussion is flawed and I think it's pretty hilarious that you think it's valid.

Dude.

It was sarcasm.

Reecius wrote:@the kerrick

People were passionate and stood up for their point of view and backed it with facts. Now everyone is so damn polite it hurts.

Be polite in real life, come to Dakka for the straight dope on what works, what doesn't and how the game plays.

You think you learn stuff now? I shudder at half the crap I see people post here in the tactics section, it is seriously watered down compared to what it used to be.

That is why I loved it! The bad advice got tossed out and people stopped posting garbage.

It felt like the only honest place on the net for 40K, free of bs. Now sometimes it went too far, but I would rather have that than a bunch of tea drinking mama's boys who can't take a slightly impolite statement without having a conniption fit.

Ask any of the old guys, we all LIKED it that way it was. It was exciting! Socially conforming politeness is bland and boring.

Im all for standing up for facts and tactics, especially when they are backed by sound reasoning. Thats what a tactics board should be like. I dont think being polite, and tactical discussions are mutually exclusive. I reserch my army a lot, and I honestly do not see all this garbage that gets posted. Occasionally there is the bad thread, but I can usually avoid them by noticing the bad spelling or a host of other small reasons. I do not get the feeling of wading through garbage for a gem. On the other hand though, I wasn't there in the "good ole days".

Either way, maybe something like the article section should be expand or streamlined, or maybe a separate forum that is only open to people that have a MODs consent or certain post count. Im all for those kind of things.

Im not a little mommas boy, but I find that things being slung around like that can be detrimental to a good discussion of tactics. Which defeats the original purpose of posting here in the first place. So if your throwing out insults, is your aim really to win at all costs or just to poke fun at the guy?

Also I love competition. I think power lists are awesome, I think winning is awesome, I think good long and tough game are awesome. I just dont think that donkey-caves are awesome.

Let me put it this way.

My introduction to Dakka went like this:

I came on thinking I was hot gak and new the game better than anyone.

I made some bold statements and the regulars called me out. When I was unable to back up what I said, everyone laughed at me and told me to get my gak straight before I opened my mouth again.

What happened? I got my feelings hurt and felt like an idiot and thought everyone was a jerk at Dakka. Then, I thought about it and realized they were right and I swas the one being an idiot.

So, I came back, learned the rules and my game better and as a result became much, much better at the game. It taught me to become more analytical about the game and as a result, a better player.

That is good! When everyone is just nice to each other and reinforce everyone's crappy tactics and lists just to avoid being rude, you are actually doing them a DISSERVICE!

By serving me a slice of humble pie and forcing me to look at the reality of the game, I became a better player because of it.

It seems to me that as newer users, such as myself, began posting, and older members posted less and less.

Now, I can understand the competitive scene going down a tad, and I'm also a bit saddened by this. Casual gamers full of prim and proper self-righteous bullgak keep ripping on tournament players, and it's seriously getting on my nerves.

Who the hell are they, to judge someone for playing differently than they, who are trying to appeal to the majority anyway? I mean, I'm almost ashamed to have to defend casual gamers, who shouldn't need defending at all! If you're all about doing what you think is fun, but someone finds being competitive fun, I guess it's okay to rip on the evil Tournament Gamer because he's all about winning eh? Typical hypocritical crap. If you ask me, GW seems to be appealing to the casual gamer, and puts the tournament gamer in what appears to be a poor light. Just because you compete doesn't make you a WAAC TFG.

I mean, if I write a poor list, tell me that it's poor. That's the main reason I post lists anyway, because even though they tend to have themes behind them, I'm still human, and I'd rather win than lose. If that gets me branded as a WAAC TFG'er by the casual gaming community, than so be it, because at the end of the day, some of us enjoy the challenge.

And as for the flaming, it's not gone yet. And in a way, I like it. Let's take a nice look at YMDC. Gwar! takes a lot of crap just because he's an RAW advocate. So what? Just because you have some lame interpretation of the rule means that you're right? It's the rule AS WRITTEN, AS IT IS MEANT TO BE. No, Marneus Calgar doesn't get a bonus attack from wielding the Gauntlets of Ultramar, because he's carrying a power weapon, and the rulebook clearly states that if he carries (that's CARRIES, not WIELDS) more than 1 type of complex weapon he's not getting the bonus. I understand if some RAI is in order (Termie Librarians and sweeping advance, for example) but at the end of the day, rules are RULES.

@thekerrick
I agree with what you are saying and I think we are saying the same thing in basic principal. We both want to get the best advice possible.

From my perspective I just see the quality of the advice here deteriorating with every year and I think it is because the casual gaming mafia types don't get scared off like they used to. It used to be a scary place here, no joke. You didn't pipe up unless you really knew what you were saying because you knew you would get flamed like crazy if you made a mistake. It forced people to be on points and not just post off the cuff.

I used to do research out of my books before posting just to avoid getting blasted, and that ensured that the qaulity here was high.

Is that rude? Yes, but it worked.

This used to a place with a lot more lurkers than posters.

What was it mauleed used to tell people? Read more and post less?

It is true! Listen first before you run your mouth like I did when I was an arrogant punk ass kid, and you learn something.

It just feels that Dakka doesn't have the authority for tactics and list building and rules calls like it used to. People just post things willy nilly and it is annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Cryonicleech
I agree with you man.

Interesting points - i consider my self pretty new to Dakka dakka, and whilst I think politeness and manners are important, its also important not to crush genuine debate.

However I dont find the mods here heavy handed on genuine debate. What they do get rid of is boring repetitiveness where a good debate decends into
- "Oblits rule all"
- - "no they dont"
- "yes they do"
ad nauseum.

Another great example was Oswitz's ridiculous Ork list. Sure, the win record was impressive, but Lord almighty it was a poor list. And after getting his ass handed to him by DashofPepper, in the end, did he lose out? No, he learned something. His list was bad, but that doesn't tell the whole story. He LEARNED from his experience, and shut his mouth, and will probably write a better list because of it. In fact, if he's reading this, I encourage him to keep re-working that list, because there's some serious potential in it, and if he works at it and learns what works/what doesn't, he might get a good list and maybe even win a tourney.

I've been on Dakka since ~2000. I hope I haven't had to resort to rude posts, in order to convey meaning.

Polite discourse doesn't have to be shallow; see the 11+ pages on Tyranids between Mahu & Shep.

Reecius wrote:I used to do research out of my books before posting just to avoid getting blasted, and that ensured that the qaulity here was high.

Oh, definitely this. I lurked on Dakka for over 2 years because of this. Now I can just post random gak and no one says anything.

To be honest, the flaming did enforce a very strict set of guidelines for list writing. You're stuff had to be up to community standards or someone would call your list a piece of crap. Like HBMC and old IG, there was one accepted best way to take line guard doctrines: Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Vets, Rough Riders and maybe Camoleoline.

While I havent been here for nearly as long as some of the older posters I would love for it to go back to how you describe it... I cant help but think its because of the time we live in... GW aims for the little kids who will spend money, etc etc... They also have huge egos and think they are the best (going up to vetren gamers they dont know and telling them their IG could beat them)... And the internet is huge on youth these days... This in all adds together to make overwhelmed ego crazed snotlings who usually cant back up what they say and get butt hurt about name calling... Granted weve all said some stupid stuff before and got burned for it, but whether or not you take the defeat and learn from it... or falsly defend your case and get butt hurt... makes a big difference...

I sure as hell don't miss the old Dakka, which was a clique of belligerent morons patting each other in the back and making outsiders feel unwelcome and stupid. Thankfully, that obnoxious dick-waving culture has all but vanished from the Internet, with 4chan being its foremost bastion today. The rest of us have grown up, in a moral and most of all in the physical sense.

The only people who miss "the old days" are the guys who were on top back then. Nobody's about to say "I wish I got flamed to hell and back every time I made a stupid mistake because English is not my native language", or "I just wrote my first army list and I hope to Jebus people will make fun of me for 50 posts because apparently I'm a crosseyed monkey who should go back to playing twiddlywinks", or even "Nobody's made me break out in tears all day, this forum is rubbish!"

This isn't the Wild West anymore. If anything, Dakka needs much more active moderation to enforce its rules because there's still so many people who think posting here is a right, not a privilege.

Pft.

Rose-tinted glasses much?

Kanluwen wrote:Rose-tinted glasses much?

Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

Kanluwen wrote:Pft.

Rose-tinted glasses much?

Agamemnon2 wrote: Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

Here it comes, the old Dakka!

Fight Fight!