Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No.

I was just pointing out that Kanluwen's post was not at all helpful since he's not indicating to whom it's directed, or what part of their views he disagrees with.

Oh man, I can't wait for the biting, sardonic - yet highly intelligent discussion this disagreement is about to erupt in!

I'm assuming it's toward Reecius' nostalgic view of the Old Dakka.

I don't think the flaming is what was good, it was the advice. Solid advice on what worked/what didn't.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rose-tinted glasses much?

Well that was nice and vague. Explain the conclusions underlying that argument.

It was a general statement about the thread, not specifically aimed at your statement Ag.

But if you want a real conclusion?

During "the good old days", people complained about the overall hostility that was present in things as simple as critiquing army lists.
Even when stating at the beginning "This is not intended for tournament play, but for a local campaign game building off army background" you had the yahoos saying things like Ogryn were idiotic(for a Guard regiment that has its background of being based near a heavily populated Ogryn world , etc) or the yahoos who tried to constantly argue the background's "set ideas" as being open to interpretation.

I don't miss those days, at all.

You weren't around during the good old days, Kanluwen, judging by your joined date.

You're really one to talk.

ph34r wrote:You weren't around during the good old days, Kanluwen, judging by your joined date.

It is possible to read the forums without joining them. Considering the general level of hostility on this board quite a few people are likely to have read it for a long time before gaining the courage to pipe up.

I know I did.

Frankly I still find dakka to be the most hostile, dick swinging, my way or the highway 40k forum on the web. It's improved a lot in a short time (thank god Stelek is gone is all I'll say) but is still hardly a friendly place.

Yet in amongst all this there is some genuine insight and solid tactical advice.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Frankly I still find dakka to be the most hostile, dick swinging, my way or the highway 40k forum on the web. It's improved a lot in a short time (thank god Stelek is gone is all I'll say) but is still hardly a friendly place.

I have to agree with that. 4chan's /tg/ board (a board dedicated to things like D&D and Warhammer) is more friendly than Dakka. Even with elitist jerks like Stelek gone this is a pretty hostile place.

Especially the OT forum. I personally think that should be removed because it leads to so much butthurt and pointless flaming.

Kanluwen wrote:You're really one to talk.

Unless you were in an extremely late batch of imports, which I admit is possible, you did not have an account on old Dakka. As I cannot read minds I basing my posts on the most logical information available to me. Your join date suggests that you created an account in the first weeks of the new DakkaDakka website.

@bravelybravesirrobin: indeed, though I do not know how far back 'Kanluwen's "good old days" are, or how long he read the forums. I know that I read the forums starting some time around 2001 or 2002, and I would consider the years around that time the "good old days". Dakka now is better than it was a year or two ago though, for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Especially the OT forum. I personally think that should be removed because it leads to so much butthurt and pointless flaming.

I couldn't agree more with this. No good has come out of the OT forum, only people inflating their post counts and getting mad at each other.

Maybe I am looking back at things through Rose tinted glasses and am just being a pain in the ass, but I really liked the old ways here.

I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people? It forced people to learn the rules of the game and gain some knowledge before adding to the conversation. I know guys like Green Blow Fly, Myself, Ozzy, Beef and many others sort of had to earn our spurs and prove we knew a thing or two before being taken at least a little seriously.

When anyone can post willy nilly it dilutes the real gems of useful knowledge. If you wanted to hang out in a forum that was more geared towards friendly conversation (which is fine) you didn't come here.

Every time I went into the tactics, YMDC or Army List sections I actually LEARNED something. There were so many insightful posts and information backed by hard facts, it was great.

Now I hardly even bother to go into those sections because so much of it is sheer crap from a tactics standpoint.

Maybe that is just a side effect of me growing older and having amassed more information about the game into this noodle of mine. Who knows.

For better or worse though, I do miss the old atmosphere in Dakka. It was an exciting place! People got pissed off and fought, there were big rivalries, and yes, there were a lot of big egos, but I'll take all that color and the best game knowledge over a bland but polite forum with 50% useless information on it. All the dick waving and cliques and egos made the place very entertaining!

Dakka is still my number 1, it's just turning into a love hate relationship these days.

My favorite part of it now is talking to my friends and meeting new people in real life to bs with and have some fun games.

Dakka was gak back then and it was populated by a lot of people who were often not very nice and people used to make excuses for them. some how a high post count made people excuse boorish and often childish behavoir. Muleed springs to mind - he could argue that black was blue even when shown a color swatch with black paint on it and be a total prick about it in the process.

Yes Dakka was the wild west, but you know what, the wild west was gak as well if you talk about reality and not the Hollywood version.

so yes, I agree with Ag. I am sure he is horrified.

Yeah, Mauleed may have been a dick sometimes, but he knew what the hell he was talking about and he backed up with tournament wins. His tactical advice actually meant something, unlike a lot of the yahoos we have spouting off now.

Well, I guess you take the good with the bad.

My only point is that if you want a nice place to hang out where everyone is friendly, you have other boards that provide that. Dakka was unique because of its atmosphere.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, Mauleed may have been a dick sometimes, but he knew what the hell he was talking about and he backed up with tournament wins. His tactical advice actually meant something, unlike a lot of the yahoos we have spouting off now.

Well, I guess you take the good with the bad.

My only point is that if you want a nice place to hang out where everyone is friendly, you have other boards that provide that. Dakka was unique because of its atmosphere.

Information is judged in the manner it is given. He failed on that count. You are also forgetting the completely stupid positions he used to take and could never ever ever ever ever admit the might be the slightest chance he was wrong.

"where everyone is friendly" - oh my, what a horrible place that is. Now feth off and pad your post count with something a bit meaningful. p.s your army choice sucks because you are an idiot.

Yes, loved the old dakka.

Hahahaha, you must have gotten it worse than others back then!

Hey, your opinion is just as valid as my own, I was just voicing my own because these changes I have been seeing have been bugging me.

If you prefer to have a bunch of useless posts floating around that provide nothing substantial, then that is your prerogative. I don't.

I liked the old way. The big egos and bullies didn't bug me, in fact, they entertained me!

And telling me to feth off and that my army sucks brings back some good memories! Hahahaha.

As the newbie that I am, I can't say if Dakka has changed or not. But reading your impressions of the "old" Dakka, I'll say that I like better a place where different views on the gaming are allowed, instead of a full-competitive or full-casual attitude.

I enjoy both sides :\

I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Reecius wrote:Hahahaha, you must have gotten it worse than others back then!

Hey, your opinion is just as valid as my own, I was just voicing my own because these changes I have been seeing have been bugging me.

If you prefer to have a bunch of useless posts floating around that provide nothing substantial, then that is your prerogative. I don't.

I liked the old way. The big egos and bullies didn't bug me, in fact, they entertained me!

And telling me to feth off and that my army sucks brings back some good memories! Hahahaha.

Oh I had so good vicious exchanges in my past with several people. never posted a list up that I can remember but jeez that was a shark pit back then.

I think the point I was trying to make was there is no reason why there cannot be both. Part of the reason that many of the ol'guard are no longer around is many of them may have moved on to another stage in their life. That is where I am. Shoot I am getting rid of all my 40k stuff at the minute. Had enough of it all really. Not because of Dakka changing but because I am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commander Endova wrote:I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Why don't you then? Stuff 'em.

oh yes ... nothing like winding the republicans up in the OT!

fullheadofhair wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:I've been on plenty of forums where there's a core of regulars who completely get their rocks off on ostracizing the newbies, and I'll tell you, it gets old fast.

That said, I personally don't mind if Dakka was a little less carebear. I think newbies should get some leniency, for sure, but there are one or two members around I'd like to tell to shut the hell up.

Overall, I think we have a decent balance for the time being. I love some of the OT shenanigans, no lie.

Why don't you then? Stuff 'em.

I don;t want to get the  bannzored. *emo tears*

@fullheadofhair
Fair play, and I think you are right that a lot of the old boys just sort of moved on.

I don't take stuff on the net seriously which is why I think I liked old Dakka so much, I laughed when everyone started throwing the insults because a lot of them, like Abadabbadoobadon, Tigerbaby and Jester, made me nearly pee my pants in laughter with their insults because they were so outrageous.

The funny thing is though, that no matter how bad it got (and I had some heated arguments, especially with Stelek, that sissy called Yakface on me many a time) it was all in fun, at least to me.

I kept coming back because being here truly made me better at the game. I didn't mind the locker room atmosphere at all, in fact I liked it. The other forums just didn't come close to the level of good advice you got here.

@Reecius

Here's my advice:

http://www.invisionfree.com/

thekerrick wrote: I reserch my army a lot, and I honestly do not see all this garbage that gets posted. Occasionally there is the bad thread, but I can usually avoid them by noticing the bad spelling

Anyone else amused by the irony?

Reecius wrote:I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

It may have forced some to double check their facts.
How many did it 'encourage' to just not post at all?

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people?

If new people are discouraged from joining, the community stagnates and eventually dwindles away.


Sure, the overall 'vibe' of Dakka has changed. Everything does. From my experience, a forum's tone and feel are largely influenced by the prominent posters. The most visible parts of the community. People largely take their cues on appropriate behaviour from these posters, and it all trickles on down.

So as more of the 'old guard' moved on and were replaced, the 'newer guard' started setting the tone. And the current trend is more geared towards remembering that this is, after all, just a game of toy soldiers. And that, speaking as someone who was here during the 'good old days' can only be a good thing.

I'd prefer a little less 'sugar coating' myself. However, the fact is that Dakka's population has escalated massively in the past few years. That is what has lead to a dilution of the 'play to win' attitude as more and more casual players (and more and more younger players) have 'discovered' dakka.

The moderated manners tightening on dakka has been inevitable as the population has increased. If it were any other way, the mods would never get through all the /reports of rule#1 breaches.

As to the attitude on the army list choices, hell I liked Stelek's opinions due to the fact that he is good at picking out interesting armies and choice combinations, he did, however, make the conscious effort to fall out with the management here and, as a moderately belligerent individual myself, I have to say that's difficult given their stance of reasonable and polite requests.

My own personal loathing is the emperor's new clothes of RAW as it's currently being touted, which seems to consist of taking anything that's written in the codex/rulebook and combining it to make clearly illogical or ludicrous results. Then it's followed by a folding of the arms and a smug 'I'm right, it's there in black and white' stance. I do miss the old ability to hold a civil debate on the rules and the ways in which they could be interpreted instead of one or two mouthpieces finding ridiculous combination of rulings and then touting it as the New New Testament (see the discussion on taking Leman Russ tanks in WH/DH armies after the new Imp G codex came out). People that believe they can 'win' the discussion by endlessly spamming the thread till everyone else goes home and they are left on top of the hill crowing about winning despite there being noone else left there to listen to them (until the FAQ is released by GW which states they are wrong, at which point they then decide that FAQs aren't really rules and should be ignored as long as it keeps their own arrogant belief aloft). These same devotees of 'THE NEW RAW' then call anyone else who does not share their frankly autistic vision RAI cheaters, claiming those people are more concerned with fluff, when many are actually concerned with What Works and Is Fair Play. They 'gang up' and pillory those that argue with them until those 'RAI cheaters' sigh and leave YMDC.

So, for the old days, I miss YMDC as it was before that trend caught on and cults of self and 'winning the argument' became more important that reaching a sensible accord on a lack of clarity in what we all agree are shaky and less than perfect rules.

Honestly? If I'd come here in Ye Olde Dayes I'd never have joined. I've got no problem with someone explaining to me that I'm making a mistake and getting advice on how to fix the problem. But if someone's an ass to me over it? I won't listen to them, even if they're right. In the end of the day this is a hobby I use to relax, the little bit of 'me' space away from the kids. The last thing I want is someone who thinks they're the most awesomest of awesome ever telling me I'm an idiot because I like using Daemonhunters or some such.

I have no problem with tournament players, but I prefer not to play them either. Simply because, often at least, we're after two different things...the tournament player wants a challenge/to crush his enemies into dust, to hear the lamentations of his women depending on the person. I'm there purely to enjoy myself. Win, loose, or draw so long as I have fun? All good. While I certainly like to win it's just not that important. And there's nothing that kills my mood as fast as the following conversation;

Opponent: You can't meltabomb that tank. The model doesn't have a meltabomb, so it's no right.

Me: Huh? *Picks up model* So it doesn't. Ah, here it is. It must have got broken off in the case.

Opponent: No, it wasn't on the model. That meltabomb could be from anywhere!

Me: No, you can see where the paint has come away...

Of course, that was the win at all costs breed. There are plenty of tournament players who won't try something like this, or wouldn't demand you get rid of the Russ in your Wittchunters list because the IG book says no such unit exists and it doesn't matter what the FAQ says, that's just there house rules. I've simply run into too many tournament guys like that to be anything but wary of playing them. Win at all costs includes the other guys enjoyment of the game, after all.

So I'm pretty glad Dakka isn't like that now. I like it here.

I lurked on Dakka for ages before joining. For me it is the most lively forum of it's type and you can still get away with a lot that you couldn't on some of the others out there.

I come from an ex-forces background so am used to piss taking and getting crap for being the FNG, but there are others who are not so robust. For some this will be an issue of age and life experience, once they mature they will be able to ignore or certainly not take negative comments to heart. Others just seem to enjoy being offended and firing up the outrage bandwagon, as long as they have some bleeding heart or minority group to side with they are happy to take the perceived moral highground.

As with any group or organisation, people should take the time to see what it is about before joining. They should certainly not expect the community to change just for their benefit. That said negativity for negativities sake is at best dull and at worst destructive. As said in the post above, if new members are put off by being flammed for no other reason than being new the forum will stagnate and die. However if the elder statesmen are effectively gagged by too many rules the forum will become dull and uninteresting.

For me the mods here do a good job, they do their best to let discussions run there course without stepping in unless needed to do so, they also "have a word with" as opposed to dishing out official warnings every five minutes.

So essentially, the old Dakka was one giant Ego Bukkake of WAAC tosspots who refused to accept the game could be played in any other way?

Glad I missed it.

Ahhh, the old days...


I'm always a bit intrigued by these kind of sentiments when it comes to an internet forum. People often say 'Dakka' is like this now or 'Dakka' feels like that now, but a forum is only ever a collection of posts, so when you say you miss the old days really what you're saying is that you miss users who don't post on Dakka anymore.

And I agree with that sentiment whole-heartedly. I remember many former Dakka regulars very fondly and miss some of the great conversations they contributed to the forum. But what is important to remember, IMHO, is that not everyone stopped posting on Dakka because they found another forum they prefer instead...rather just like real life, many users simply stop playing the hobby or don't participate as heavily anymore and naturally their interest in an internet forum based on it dwindles.


But while some great souls are gone likely to never return, we always need to remember that a forum is only made up of the posts on it. So if you don't think the tactics forum has any good tactics in it, the answer isn't to avoid going in there, but rather to start contributing good advice yourself! The 'great' posters you remembered and love were great because they took the time to contribute. The more you take the time to do so, the more other people will engage and respect your arguments and before long I'm sure people will be remembering how nice it was when you used to post back in the 2010s.


It is also easy to forget that Dakka's rule #1 has always been to 'be polite' at all times. Has this rule always been enforced as written on the conduct page? Of course not, its an ideal to strive for. Yes Dakka has always had (IMHO) one of the most lenient moderation policies amongst major forums, and that ideal still continues to this day despite the fact that we desperately have to have more moderation these days due to the fact that there are more people posting on Dakka than ever before.

It is easy to remember the good times of Dakka, but is also easy to forget that there was a period where the site almost felt like a ghost town, with very few active members even posting. That isn't a feeling you get anymore when you visit Dakka.

But growth is always a double-edged sword. Yes, the site has more posts, more users and a general feel of more activity, but that also means there are increased challenges of moderation, increased breaches of 'netiquette' and increased numbers of posts from newer players asking questions about the hobby that you may think are stupid.

Sure we don't want to get to a crazy point where every post is like the old GW 'eye of terror' forums, but we also want to remain one of the internet's premiere places to come and discuss the hobby.


So again, Dakka is only made up of posts...if you think the content is getting skewed in a certain direction then POST and be someone contributing to the things you like and others always follow.


Finally, when it comes to giant flame wars, insulting people, etc, being something 'good', I just have to strongly disagree. There is absolutely no benefit you gain from being rude to someone besides the likelihood of making them angry right back at you. You can completely dismantle someone's arguments and sway whole swathes of other user's to whatever cause you are fighting for all the while being completely and utterly polite.

This is the big fallacy behind someone who thinks 'telling it like it is' equals 'being rude'...the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.


And old Dakka poster JTS (who played in the classic net-hyped battle against Mauleed) would frequently destroy people's tactical arguments on Tau with pure mathematics and knowledgeable insight, all without ever insulting anyone.

Or someone like 'Flavius Infernus' who uses a clear set of logical guidelines to dismantle other's arguments in YMTC, but all the while being very friendly and polite.


Yes, someone like Mauleed did add some spice, but he also caused a lot of extra moderation work to be done, and he knew it. Whenever we did warn or suspend him about his behavior he was always very apologetic and willing to take the punishment as he knew that his behavior had caused us all extra work to take care of.


But I've kind of gotten off track and lost with exactly where I was going...I guess ultimately what I have to say is that if you feel like Dakka has changed into a friendlier place than it used to be, well then hallelujah! Because that's exactly what we've been trying to accomplish.

Reecius wrote:Maybe I am just a crusty old grognard here and remember the old days as being better even if they weren't, but I can't shake the feeling that Dakka is turning into a Warseer or B&C.

When I came here way back when, this place was like the wild west. You ran your mouth and you got called out. You said something stupid and you got flamed like crazy for it. I am pretty sure there were people who cried themselves to sleep after getting a royal reaming by some of the regulars.

Now I have new people telling me to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. People are coming on the boards and saying that math hammer is dumb and pointless, that units should be used because they are fluffy? Take that to the other boards where they like the same things. This is Dakka for crying out loud!

What is going on here? Dakka was where you came to learn how to win the game, not get a pat on the back and cuddle with a fluff bunny!

Where are the old guys anyway, like Mauleed, Tigerbaby, and all the others? I have not seen a 3 page flame war with death threats and people calling each other out for the next tournament in forever. Everyone is playing with kid gloves on now. It feels like Dakka is losing what made it unique. Dakka is lsoing the swagger that made me love the place

This was a place where you had to support your claims and if you made a ridiculous statement you got slammed. It was not polite and it was not nice but it made me a better player without question, and it made me realize that you can't go running your mouth about the game when you are unable to walk what you talk.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just missing the good old days?

I swear it seems like Dakka is changing from a whiskey drinking, bare knuckles saloon into a wine bar in the suburbs.

oh it's still like that if you're one of the moderators or their friends.

Everyone else? Bow to the cool kids table.

insaniak wrote:

Reecius wrote:I don't advocate people being jerks for no reason, but when we had retribution in place for senseless posts it really did force people to double check their facts before posting.

It may have forced some to double check their facts.
How many did it 'encourage' to just not post at all?

And so what if it was a bit intimidating for new people?

If new people are discouraged from joining, the community stagnates and eventually dwindles away.


Sure, the overall 'vibe' of Dakka has changed. Everything does. From my experience, a forum's tone and feel are largely influenced by the prominent posters. The most visible parts of the community. People largely take their cues on appropriate behaviour from these posters, and it all trickles on down.

So as more of the 'old guard' moved on and were replaced, the 'newer guard' started setting the tone. And the current trend is more geared towards remembering that this is, after all, just a game of toy soldiers. And that, speaking as someone who was here during the 'good old days' can only be a good thing.

and how much of Dakka is now just the "cool kids" and their moderator patrons patting themselves on the back in between toy throwing fits?

More than you care to admit.

I fail to see why being rude, aggressive, needlessly inflammatory and generally an all-round idiot somehow equates to a paragon of intellectual debate and stimulation. Surely we are all grown up enough to have reasoned, informed debate and opinion without the need to snipe at one another. How does that benefit anyone?